A hugely disappointing season....on many fronts - Let not athens distract you....

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Penguins » Mon May 14, 2007 11:06 pm

aCe' wrote:
Redstavro wrote:in a perfect world you wouldnt play mascherano why?

out of mascherano alonso and gerrard .. pick two..
there you go...
you cant play him based on how good you think he migt become...
im saying... to me... hes better than carrick of manutd and owen harg. of bayern... but not better than xabi and gerrard.

i think gerrard is the best central midfielder in the world... can defend ...can go forward... can hit them from far and close ...
when it comes to the right side... not even in my top10 player list...
i could have understood rafa playing him there last season when we had no other options but this season with pennant here it was uncalled for...
next season i can see rafa throwing him in the right side again and it bothers me quite abit...

an ideal midfield 4 would look something like this in my books...


       Pennant      Gerrard     Alonso    NEWLEFTMID

with 1 or 2 new quality strikers and the defenders we got now and maybe one more CB.... we'd be ready for a title challenge imo...

I agree with everything else you said Ace but I'd have to pick Masch ahead of Alonso in a centre mid with gerrard.

I just think it brings better balance and Masch is much more defensivly aware, a better tackler, has better positioning, more agressive and a little faster. Alonso might be a great holding mid but he is suspect as a defensive mid. Gerrard like to leave his spot many times during a game leaving the other to take care of business in the centre of the park and masch do that with exellence.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon May 14, 2007 11:15 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Sabre wrote:I see where you're coming from :) and I agree, I just got it wrong slightly the word (excuse me).

Hey Sabre don't give up so easily, you were right first time.

Expected is unreasonable. We can only expect achievements in line with the tools we have, If you believe Rafa inadequate then we can't expect to win the league. If you believe the players inadequate again you can't expect to win the league.

We need to objectively assess our Club, then compare it to the rivals and then set a minimum expectation. ATM we are massively behind in funds, we have in the forward line the weakest of the top four. A back line on par, and probably the best, tied midfield. We have imho the better manager.

So what can you expect from that? Imo you can expect that on one off occasions, in shorter formats, that the skill of the manager might be the deciding factor.

I've seen posts saying we should have 80 points or so, wtf, we've been out of contention for the league for a while, and were concentrating on the one trophy we could win. So the performance was bound to drop in the league.

I want the league as much as anyone here, but we need to be closer in the funds to at least the mancs. Also given time, Rafa could start to bring through his own youth players. Wenger has had 11 years to get his youngsters, Rudolph 21 years and Maureen unlimited money.

I agree the early season away form cost us the chance to compete for the title, but to win it this year would really have been miraculous, and Rafa has not started walking on water just yet.

It depends on your starting point mate. If you start from where we finished last season, one point behind the Mancs we didn't do that well. We spent £26million the Mancs spent £18million, we finished 21 points behind them and never even had a sniff of a league challenge. We have reached the CL Final while they were knocked out in the semi's but they won the league and have also reached the FA cup final. We got 68points as against 82points the previous year.

Try the same comparison again with Chelsea and we have actually not done that bad.
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Postby aCe' » Mon May 14, 2007 11:16 pm

Penguins wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Redstavro wrote:in a perfect world you wouldnt play mascherano why?

out of mascherano alonso and gerrard .. pick two..
there you go...
you cant play him based on how good you think he migt become...
im saying... to me... hes better than carrick of manutd and owen harg. of bayern... but not better than xabi and gerrard.

i think gerrard is the best central midfielder in the world... can defend ...can go forward... can hit them from far and close ...
when it comes to the right side... not even in my top10 player list...
i could have understood rafa playing him there last season when we had no other options but this season with pennant here it was uncalled for...
next season i can see rafa throwing him in the right side again and it bothers me quite abit...

an ideal midfield 4 would look something like this in my books...


       Pennant      Gerrard     Alonso    NEWLEFTMID

with 1 or 2 new quality strikers and the defenders we got now and maybe one more CB.... we'd be ready for a title challenge imo...

I agree with everything else you said Ace but I'd have to pick Masch ahead of Alonso in a centre mid with gerrard.

I just think it brings better balance and Masch is much more defensivly aware, a better tackler, has better positioning, more agressive and a little faster. Alonso might be a great holding mid but he is suspect as a defensive mid. Gerrard like to leave his spot many times during a game leaving the other to take care of business in the centre of the park and masch do that with exellence.

is carrick any better than alonso defensively ?
is scholes any better than gerrard defensively ?

yet we conceded 27 and so did manutd.. difference was... they scored some 30 more goals than we did !

id go for mascherano and gerrard in the middle of the park dont get me wrong... but out of the two... i think alonso is the better player atm... maybe in a coupla years mascherano might become the best DM in the game but for now if we have masch. and alonso and we'r playing a league game against any side except fot the top 3 or 4... id pick alonso and gerrard...

on a sidenote... wouldnt mind swapping alonso + cash for etoo if barcelona were interested !
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Postby Bad Bob » Mon May 14, 2007 11:25 pm

Good thread, this.  Personally, I wouldn't call any season where we get to the CL final a "hugely disappointing" season and bracketing off our CL success from our Premiership mediocrity misses an important point: they're related.  I certainly would have expected 9 points from our last three games were Rafa and the lads not preoccupied by the Champions League.  Those games and a few other damp squibs (Villa away for instance) might never have happened had we been out of Europe so I think we need to take our total points haul with a pinch of salt (just like we need to take last year's with the opposite pinch of salt, seeing as we had no European commitments after February).

Also, I have to say that I have a real problem with any notion that Rafa doesn't 'care about' or 'prioritize' the league.  I don't for one second question his passion to win every competition we are in and I think it's churlish to suggest he can't be a.rsed about the league.

But, some will point to his rotation policy and his penchant for fielding weaker sides in the league prior to, or in the wake of, big European matches as evidence that he doesn't care about the Prem.  Perhaps another way to look at it, though, is to say that he has more faith in the entire squad than we all do.  When he puts the likes of Zenden or Gonzales or Palletta or Dudek out there, he's expecting them to be able to do the business against the Sheffield United's and Fulhams of the league.  And, on paper, he's right--a few squad players sprinkled in amongst a few first teamers should still give us a side with enough about them to get the 3 points.  The fact that the second-stringers have consistently let us down this season has been one of the defining features of the campaign.  While our "Best 11" (or 13-14) can hold their own against anyone in world football, our back-up players have not demonstrated that they are fit to step in and do the job when called upon.

So, yes, in hindsight Rafa did over-rotate at the start of the season (I'll admit it now that all the evidence is in, including the fact that our second stringers are not deputizing any more effectively at the end of the season as they were at the beginning).  Put another way, he had too much faith in his squad players to step in and keep the results ticking over.  I hope he's learned from this error in two ways:

1) That resting key players en masse at the beginning of the season is not a recipe for winning the title.  As many have said, what's the point of being fit at the end of the campaign if you're out of the hunt by October?  I read today that Chelsea have only lost 3 games all season and still finished a rather distant second.  We, on the other hand, had lost 3 games by the end of September.  So, the conventional approach of waiting until players actually need a rest is probably the wisest course of action.

2) That our squad players are not good enough to compete for the title.  Now, replacing them with more squad players is a fool's game, IMO.  The better option is to bring in a clutch of top class players who will then transform a few of our first teamers into squad players (eg. the likes of Crouch, Kuyt, Pennant, Riise, Garcia, Finnan, Sissoko).  That way, we can be assured that, when called upon, these players will know what is required and have the requisite skill to deputize effectively.  With a top quality squad to call on, Rafa can persist with his rotating (within reason, of course...players still benefit from runs of games together) without sabotaging our chances of competing on several fronts, including the league.
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Postby redtrader74 » Mon May 14, 2007 11:32 pm

Saint, the mancs spent 18m on one player, because they can and we can't, and because that is all they needed, we added 4 players, so they improved on a settled squad and we are clearly a work in progress. So where our players were adjusting to each other and they started the season running.

Secondly comparing is largely irrelevant, as they had to win their games due to Chelsea pressure, whereas our bad start meant we were out of the league but secure in the top four.

If we didn't have the CL we may have accumalated more points, but since that was our only target, unfortunatly, the only target was to secure a CL postion.

2 CL's finals, 1 FA cup, 3rd for 2 years, we would have taken that 3 years ago when Rafa arrived. I think that after 2005 some people thought we were better than we were and that has raised unrealistic expectations.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon May 14, 2007 11:59 pm

I dont think expecting to be still in the title race at Christmas was expecting too much. Not after the way we finished the previous season.

If you dont make comparisons, how else can you judge progress in the league? Cups while great to win dont really measure progress that well, or you wouldn't get teams like West Ham in the FA cup final. West ham were lucky that the two best teams in the league, met the third best team Liverpool and were knocked out.

You have to compare yourself to your rivals. Points achieved alone can't give a true comparison i.e. sometimes the league is won with 95 points sometimes only 85points.

From where we were when Rafa took over we have had an incredible 3 years but I still think we could have done better in the league. Maybe not as well as BigMick thinks (although I did preseason) but a lot better than we have.
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Postby Bad Bob » Tue May 15, 2007 12:06 am

redtrader74 wrote:Saint, the mancs spent 18m on one player, because they can and we can't, and because that is all they needed, we added 4 players, so they improved on a settled squad and we are clearly a work in progress. So where our players were adjusting to each other and they started the season running.

I was thinking about this point myself.  I definitely agree that they purchased Carrick to fill their one problem position whereas we had to spend in order to address deficiencies in several areas of the pitch.  That makes a difference and goes some way to accounting for the two teams' diverging fortunes over the past season.

It also bears saying that, in Scholes, they had a veteran player of some considerable skill returning fresh and hungry after nearly a season off.  How would they have faired this season if his vision problems persisted and he was forced to retire (a very real possibility)?  More importantly, let's hope that Kewell pulls a Scholes for us next season, hmmm? :nod

I do think comparing the two clubs on the issue of rotation is interesting, though.  I don't have the stats but I suspect that, while the Mancs probably rotated a fair amount over the course of the season (for injuries etc.), it wasn't on the same scale as Rafa's (at times) mass rotation policy.  Given that their 'Best 11'--which, it must be said, contains a few players rather long in the tooth--managed to win the league, get to the FA Cup Final and reach the semis of the CL with less rest then our lads should tell us something.  Namely, that it is possible to challenge on multiple fronts in one season without rotating excessively (as long as you are lucky with injuries, as they were).
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Postby Penguins » Tue May 15, 2007 12:20 am

aCe' wrote:
Penguins wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Redstavro wrote:in a perfect world you wouldnt play mascherano why?

out of mascherano alonso and gerrard .. pick two..
there you go...
you cant play him based on how good you think he migt become...
im saying... to me... hes better than carrick of manutd and owen harg. of bayern... but not better than xabi and gerrard.

i think gerrard is the best central midfielder in the world... can defend ...can go forward... can hit them from far and close ...
when it comes to the right side... not even in my top10 player list...
i could have understood rafa playing him there last season when we had no other options but this season with pennant here it was uncalled for...
next season i can see rafa throwing him in the right side again and it bothers me quite abit...

an ideal midfield 4 would look something like this in my books...


       Pennant      Gerrard     Alonso    NEWLEFTMID

with 1 or 2 new quality strikers and the defenders we got now and maybe one more CB.... we'd be ready for a title challenge imo...

I agree with everything else you said Ace but I'd have to pick Masch ahead of Alonso in a centre mid with gerrard.

I just think it brings better balance and Masch is much more defensivly aware, a better tackler, has better positioning, more agressive and a little faster. Alonso might be a great holding mid but he is suspect as a defensive mid. Gerrard like to leave his spot many times during a game leaving the other to take care of business in the centre of the park and masch do that with exellence.

is carrick any better than alonso defensively ?
is scholes any better than gerrard defensively ?

yet we conceded 27 and so did manutd.. difference was... they scored some 30 more goals than we did !

id go for mascherano and gerrard in the middle of the park dont get me wrong... but out of the two... i think alonso is the better player atm... maybe in a coupla years mascherano might become the best DM in the game but for now if we have masch. and alonso and we'r playing a league game against any side except fot the top 3 or 4... id pick alonso and gerrard...

on a sidenote... wouldnt mind swapping alonso + cash for etoo if barcelona were interested !

Hard to compare Alonso and Masch. Both are very good players bordering on top quality. I just wish Alonso could be a bit more offensive since we all know he is a great passer and has a very good shot. He is a bit to static and slow sometimes...
I still beleive no matter who u play vs the weaker sides the deciding factor we've been missing is top quality from wide players and the strikers.


And [email=S@int..]S@int..[/email]

Sure, manure spent 18 million on one player which we never have done and for them it's pocket change almost...

The season before they had Scholes out loads of time and that put them in ahuge hole with no real CM at all.
Ronaldo performed like **** as he did the previous 3 seasons.
And Vidic was adapting. They have a had avery dependable core of players for a long time with experience of the PL and of winning the title. With the arrival of carrick and the return of Scholes  they had a solid CM all of a sudden and practially both were injury free the whole season. Vidic has become great this season(blah) and Ronaldo all of sudden became like a new signing for them but had gotten used to the team and the way they play.

We on the other hand can't splash the cash on one player like that. Only core we have is Gerrard and Carra and almost the entire squad has been changed in a couple of seasons.
And to this day how many top quality players have been brought in??
Alonso maybe. masch doesn''t count cause he's so new.
Many good players yes, top quality, no.
And is this cause Rafa doesn't want top quality?
NO, cause he isn't allowed to get it.

And if us fans knew the title race was over by October, don't you think the players knew?
Sure, they must be professional, give their all for the club etc, but they're only human!
If you get that horrible start(which is the only part where I think Rafa should have done differently)  with neverton, chelski, manure, Ars , scrapheap(bolton) all losses away from home it's very hard mentally to come back and give it your all.
Like Villa, City, Newcastle away. No matter what they do in those games it just won't matter. Not to mentaion the last 3-4 games. So they could have fought like crazy in those and got 80-82 pts. SO what?
No CL final would be a good guess and still 3rd place.
I know which I'd pick.
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Postby account deleted by request » Tue May 15, 2007 12:25 am

Bad Bob wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:Saint, the mancs spent 18m on one player, because they can and we can't, and because that is all they needed, we added 4 players, so they improved on a settled squad and we are clearly a work in progress. So where our players were adjusting to each other and they started the season running.

I was thinking about this point myself.  I definitely agree that they purchased Carrick to fill their one problem position whereas we had to spend in order to address deficiencies in several areas of the pitch.  That makes a difference and goes some way to accounting for the two teams' diverging fortunes over the past season.

It also bears saying that, in Scholes, they had a veteran player of some considerable skill returning fresh and hungry after nearly a season off.  How would they have faired this season if his vision problems persisted and he was forced to retire (a very real possibility)?  More importantly, let's hope that Kewell pulls a Scholes for us next season, hmmm? :nod

I do think comparing the two clubs on the issue of rotation is interesting, though.  I don't have the stats but I suspect that, while the Mancs probably rotated a fair amount over the course of the season (for injuries etc.), it wasn't on the same scale as Rafa's (at times) mass rotation policy.  Given that their 'Best 11'--which, it must be said, contains a few players rather long in the tooth--managed to win the league, get to the FA Cup Final and reach the semis of the CL with less rest then our lads should tell us something.  Namely, that it is possible to challenge on multiple fronts in one season without rotating excessively (as long as you are lucky with injuries, as they were).

Following that argument to the extreme , does this mean we would have done better spending all our £26million on one player. After all , have Crouch Bellamy and Kuyt done that much better than Crouch, Cisse and Morientes? Aurelio, Riise and Gonzo done any better than Zenden, Riise. Has Pennant done any better than Gerrard etc etc.

Back to reality, I agree we had to spread our money thinly while the Mancs could afford to strengthen just the one area.
But they have seen major benefits while we are still waiting.

By the way Bob that was a very good point about Scholes and Kewell.
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Postby flombs » Tue May 15, 2007 12:27 am

I'll agree with the title of this thread. I feel regardless of being in
the final of the CL, it has been a very dissapointing season
domestically. Great! we are in the CL final but we did come third
in the league as well, doesnt exactly get my heart racing looking at
this past season and the rest. I really hope Benitez finds the players he is looking for to strengthen the squad, and starts getting the results that LFC deserve in the league. Its been What?
18-20 years since we last won, and thats not good enough for me. Sorry. Sick and tired of other clubs calling us a cup team. We are so much more than that.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue May 15, 2007 3:20 am

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:i dont think people realise the shell of a club rafa took over, everyone who was half decent wanted out, even players like gerrard and owen who had come through the youth system wanted out and why?
because they thought it virtually impossible they could win any major honours with liverpool in the foreseeable future.
we have not got a god given right to win the league, we are trying to compete with possibly the biggest club in world football and the richest but some on here think by stamping their feet and complaining like spoilt kids somethings going to change.
rafa benitez has performed a miracle at this club, pundits had even stopped mentioning us as a big club on the telly - it was all chelsea, united and arsenal.
speaking of arsenal a few on here always seem to mention them in glowing terms but a minor point that may have escaped your notice is that we have finished above them for the past 2 seasons now.
things dont happen in football overnight, unless you have the type of dough chelsea have and even then raneiri couldnt win it though admittedly he came close.
putting unrealistic targets for benitez is ridiculous because no one on earth could do a better job, do people think if mourinho or ferguson took over the pile of :censored: houllier left behind they`d get to 2 champions league finals in 3 years and finish above arsenal twice?
looking at the likes of diouf, diao and cheyrou i would have been happy just to qualify for the champions league twice in three years never mind get to 2 finals!
if rafa wins the league once in the next five years he would have done well.
how many people on here know how many league titles bill shankly won in 15 years at anfield? i suspect half of you would have sniped at him because of the stick your getting from your chelsea, arsenal and united mates.
jesus, i just cant believe where the support of this club is going.
rafa benitez is a brilliant manager not a f**king miracle worker, but i must admit he`s doing a good impression of one.

:nod

Exactly right.

Rome wasn't built in a day, cretins.

I thought some of you were old enough to know better. :no
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Tue May 15, 2007 3:28 am

and i am sure that the romans didnt build things then demolish them the next season, they carried on improving, we havent done that this season we have gone backwards.


cretin    :D


seriously lando i admire your spirit but even stevie wonder would be able to see that this season in the league we have taken a major step backwards and thats down to the manager, we have shown how good we can be when we play our full strengh team, but rafa is so charitable he decides to field weaker teams agains the smaller clubs just to give them a chance

:D
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Postby Bad Bob » Tue May 15, 2007 3:37 am

s@int wrote:By the way Bob that was a very good point about Scholes and Kewell.

Yeah, it's important not to read too much into one 30 minute cameo against a relegated side but Kewell on Sunday reminded me of exactly what we were missing this season compared to last.  For 20 or so minutes there we had Mascherano minding the store, Alonso pulling the strings (and getting forward), Gerrard buzzing around the box and a rampant Harry Kewell bombing down the flank, jinking past defenders, putting in teasing crosses and getting menacing shots on target.  Just makes you wonder what our season would have been like if he were fit for even half of it.

If--and I recognize it's a big if--he regains fitness and gets plenty of games next term, we will take a major step up in quality.  I was actually embarassed for Zenden and Riise after Harry came on because he made both of them look like mugs for toiling so hard with nothing to show over the first 60 minutes.  When he's fit and on song, he's a hell of a player and I hope we hang on to him and let him repay the faith Rafa's shown.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue May 15, 2007 3:48 am

Penguins wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Redstavro wrote:in a perfect world you wouldnt play mascherano why?

out of mascherano alonso and gerrard .. pick two..
there you go...
you cant play him based on how good you think he migt become...
im saying... to me... hes better than carrick of manutd and owen harg. of bayern... but not better than xabi and gerrard.

i think gerrard is the best central midfielder in the world... can defend ...can go forward... can hit them from far and close ...
when it comes to the right side... not even in my top10 player list...
i could have understood rafa playing him there last season when we had no other options but this season with pennant here it was uncalled for...
next season i can see rafa throwing him in the right side again and it bothers me quite abit...

an ideal midfield 4 would look something like this in my books...


       Pennant      Gerrard     Alonso    NEWLEFTMID

with 1 or 2 new quality strikers and the defenders we got now and maybe one more CB.... we'd be ready for a title challenge imo...

I agree with everything else you said Ace but I'd have to pick Masch ahead of Alonso in a centre mid with gerrard.

I just think it brings better balance and Masch is much more defensivly aware, a better tackler, has better positioning, more agressive and a little faster. Alonso might be a great holding mid but he is suspect as a defensive mid. Gerrard like to leave his spot many times during a game leaving the other to take care of business in the centre of the park and masch do that with exellence.

That post right there undermines anything you've ever written.

Mascherano is very, very good, but is not in the same league as Alonso, and to suggest otherwise implies that you know f*ck all about the game.

"Masch is much more defensivly aware, a better tackler, has better positioning, more agressive"

More defensively aware? Are you on drugs? Alonso has the best awareness in our entire team, and it's his awareness that allows other players around him to push on and attack.

A better tackler? Why - because he slides in more often? Let me tell you something about tackling, shall I? You can go for the showbiz-style that Gerrard and Mascherano like, which is much more entertaining, but requires less skill (even I can slide in on someone and win the ball) and involves much more risk, or you can do a Xabi, stay on your feet, anticipate, intercept and then build an attack from there.
Think about what you're saying. How many fouls does Mascherano concede that Alonso wouldn't?

Mascherano has better positioning? You serious? I think someone needs to visit the docs and asked to be admitted to an asylum. Alonso's positional sense is second to none. When do you EVER see him caught out of position, unless it was to actually cover someone else? Never - the lad is nearly robotic in this.

More aggressive. This is the only quoted point I agree with you on, and even then I fail to see why this is a good point. You don't want an aggressive player leaping into challenges all the time - it results in red cards and free kicks/penalties. If you want aggression - let's bring Dennis Wise and Chopper Harris out of retirement...

I actually think Mascherano is a cracking player, with a bright future ahead of him. I am glad he's at Liverpool, and I hope we tie him down to a permanent deal asap. But that doesn't make him what he's not.
That's a problem I am noticing more and more with LFC fans, many of them longer in the tooth than their incredulous opinions would imply - haste.

"Oh, that Mascherano was brilliant last night, he's the best player in the World, dontcha know? Much better than so-and-so."

"Oh, Sissoko is brilliant - much better than Alonso and he should play every game beside Gerrard int he centre."

"Pennant is sh*t and his performances will never improve."

"Kuyt is the next Fowler."

"Arbeloa is better than Finnan."

It's b*llocks. All of these statements are genuine accounts of some of the sh*t I have heard over the last year or so. Most on here, some in person. I said the Pennant one, along with numerous others, but the difference is - I have learnt my lesson, and I know now that you just cannot judge a player on a handful of games.

Anyway, I digress:

I was one of the most passionate supporters of Rafa when he tried to sign Mascherano in January. A lot of people were sceptical due to his "failure" at West Ham, but having seen him play a few times, I knew we were getting a gem. I stand by that, and I'll go even further by saying he hasn't shown us everything he's got yet.

However: This is not open to debate, it is not "down to opinion", it is stone-cold fact:

Xabi Alonso is a better player than Javier Mascherano.

He may not be as glamourous, but glamour doesn't win you matches. Glamour doesn't win you trophies.

F*cking ability and intelligence does.
Last edited by Lando_Griffin on Tue May 15, 2007 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue May 15, 2007 3:59 am

peewee wrote:and i am sure that the romans didnt build things then demolish them the next season, they carried on improving, we havent done that this season we have gone backwards.


cretin    :D


seriously lando i admire your spirit but even stevie wonder would be able to see that this season in the league we have taken a major step backwards and thats down to the manager, we have shown how good we can be when we play our full strengh team, but rafa is so charitable he decides to field weaker teams agains the smaller clubs just to give them a chance

:D

But as has been pointed out mate, this season we've been without Kewell (who made MASSIVE contributions last season) and Garcia (who scored double figures last term, and would have been our back-up left midfielder.)

Essentially, I feel it's the fact that we've spent and entire season with a 3rd/4th/5th choice left mid in the side that has cost us the most points, rather than Rafa's percieved ineptitude.

Seriously though Peewee - surely you can see the vast improvements our Spanish boss has made over the previous stewardship?

Patience is the key, and I personally would not change Rafa for anyone else on Earth.
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Rafa Benitez - An unfinished Legend.
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Lando_Griffin
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