Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:10 pm

While I agree Mick that rotation hasnt helped I dont think it's by any means the only reason. Our away form has been terrible and maybe some of our foreign imports dont (or haven't ) attached the same importance to away games in the league as perhaps they do the CL. (It has long been an accusation made of foreign players eg Di Canio being the prime example of a "homer")

I have to agree with you about Crouch! I have never understood that one.

by **bigmick** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:10 pm

Sabre wrote:If we were just playing the league, with 1 game per week, then I'd change as few things as possible, but with wednesday games? not rotating is reckless. And FWIW, we do not overrotate comparing with UEFA teams like Osasuna or Sevilla who changed 7 and 8 men from wednesday to Sunday. I guess you'd call that super-rotation.

Sabes I think you've unwittingly hit the nail on the head. Forget about Osasuna or Sevilla mate. Lets see them go to Bolton on a wet night in January with an English ref and get a result. Lets face it, half of them wouldn't get off the bus and those that did wouldn't make it back on.

And nobodies saying that players shouldn't be rested. But theres a difference between being rested and being totally fecked about. Crouch was scoring two one week then on the bench the next two games. That's just plain daft. It doesn't matter how anybody dresses it up, Rafa fecked it up at the start of the season totally and it cost us any chance whatsoever of a shot at the title. Some would say we weren't good enough anyhow and we can argue about that, but the fact that there was chronic mismanagement is beyond dispute surely?

by **Effes** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:13 pm

Re. Squad Rotation: Everyone says that Rafa is very stubborn and wont change his ways.

So we cant expect him to change his rotation policy can we?

by **Big Niall** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:16 pm

Winning the CL again will keep me happy but we are far behind Manu and Chelsea.

We have difficulty beating poor teams. I don't like Rafa's rotation policy and don't think he has really got to grips with domestic football.

looking forward to final though (I don't have the "f*ck - what if we lose" fear that I'd have if Manure reached it).

by **account deleted by request** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:29 pm

I do believe that rotating has cost us points, you only need to look at the problems the Mancs and Chelsea have had when they have played their weaker teams of late. Chelsea v Bolton etc. I think a lot of the lower/poorer teams are almost willing to accept defeat when they see the Mancs at full strength, see the Mancs without Rooney, Ronaldo and Scholes and they begin to think they may have a chance. Add to this the negative impact of actually playing without key players and you suddenly have a hard game instead of the easy victory it looks on paper.

I still believe if rotation was the only problem instead of a symptom of a much greater malaise we should have done much much better this season. As I have repeatedly said, our home form would have us challenging for the league, EVEN WITH ROTATION. Our away form would have us failing to even get into Europe.

by **Ciggy** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:37 pm

Also no one seems to be scared of us any more, it used to put the willies up them at the thought of playing us.
Now its a doddle for even the prem strugglers who we cannot beat away from home.
Sure a few still fear Anfield, but look at Charlton yesterday they could have easily beaten us 4-1 I know Reina was a big loss yesterday mind.
We have to just play our own game and not set up and worry what other teams do or dont do.
For a manager to have his tactics spot on in Europe he still hasnt grasped the english game, but in saying that there was vast improvements last season, so it sort of quashes it.
Is Rafa only interested in the CL?
A lot of people think so.
One major dissapointment this season for me has been Bellamy.

by **bunglemark2** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:37 pm

Folks.....all this talk of rotation is clouding the issue....
When you see 11 players cross the line, with the salaries these guys get, the goal bonuses etc., surely we're entitled to expect them to give it their all ? If they showed half the commitment shown in the semi-final against Chelski; if they competed for more 50-50 balls; if they were first to a stray pass.....and I'm talking here about the so-called fringe players, whose responsibility it is to SHOW the manager that they should be in the starting 11.
Put it this way - the last two games of the season were the perfect opportunity for fringe players to make the manager sit up and watch, to make him think "Sh1t - maybe XXX should start in Athens..." , but none of it was on show.
Don't get me wrong, I think Rafa's rotation policy was proven to be wrong. Maybe it's the quality of the players, but I think it has more to do with the mentality of the players. Hell, Greece got to the WC finals, and do you think any of those players was fit to wear a LFC jersey ?
It's a mindset that has to change

by **Sabre** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:50 pm

I love footie discussions because in those discussions the distance between positions seem to be huge, and then we realise they're not different.

But I'll say something. Zenden.

Zenden is the magic word to explain bad performances. If you have a rainy October day in Sheffield and you lose or draw, and you look the line-up and there's a Zenden on it, you say "aaaah, Zenden and overrotation, that's why".

But Zenden wasn't the culprit of a poor back 4 line at the start of the season. I'd love to have Owzat's off side stats but many plays that later in the season ended up in an off side, were valid balls for the opposition at the beginning. And that's hardly Zenden's fault. Perhaps the price to pay to Agger become a regular? maybe.

And it wasn't Zenden's fault that Pennant picked the ball too far away from where he's really dangerous (he's a winger, an extremo, not a midfielder exactly). And Zenden wasn't the culprit of Alonso putting his hands up asking for explanation of why he had to face 2 against 1 situations more than often.

We did wrong a lot of things at the start of the season, but let's be fair with Zenden, it wasn't all his fault. FWIW, he played the semifinals, so we might be wrong thinking that when Rafa played Zenden "he didn't take seriously the opposition". It just may be that we just don't like the player, but Rafa does.

by **redtrader74** » Mon May 14, 2007 1:05 pm

Some posters believe that our full first team could win the league, which is laughable, our forward line is the weakest of all the top four, probably behind spurs. Rafa has been juggling about because none of our strikers are top drawer, eg Drogba, berbatov, henry even shrek.

Now you can either blame Rafa, or a lack of funds, or other (unknown to us) factors, but we do not have anyone exceptional up front. So its Rafa's job to evaluate which qualities of the strikers he has, are going to expose the opponents, IMHO the reason for the rotation. I am sure that the squad manipulation would be handled differently if we had a couple more top players. How much have Gerrard, Finnan, Alonso, Reina, Carragher and Pennant really been rotated? (don't include the last 10 games, top 4 was secure and were in CL semi.....final)
Imho i think that Rafa does worry too much about the Crappy sides instead of thinking we have more than enough for these and going for a win.
Maybe there has been a lot of rotation, but to say they play like strangers means the players must be thick, because they train together each day, and most of them must be used to it as they have played all of Rafas combinations.

Rotation or not, when you saw the teams to play Blackburn, Everton, Bolton and Shef Utd, what did you think? I thought we were going to win, and that is where our chance to be at least competitive was lost.

If we win the CL league, this season is a success, getting to the final also puts the club in the limelight. Yes the league has been poor, but the season should be considered in its entirity.

by **Redstavro** » Mon May 14, 2007 1:06 pm

maybe we have overachieved. as were still in the process of building a team that can win the prem (it took fergi five years or something to win anything) but while we have been building weve won champions league, super cup, been in the world club championship won a charity shield. oh and an fa cup we are now in another champions league final. underachieving i dont think so. still building yes.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon May 14, 2007 1:07 pm

I personally have absolutely no problem with rotation per se. It's essential to a point if you want to be competitive on all fronts.

You need the right personnel though. If you play Gerrard and Alonso in central mid one game, then Mascherano and Sissoko the next, that's fine. You have to question the logic when it's suddenly Sissoko and Zenden in the middle - that's a real step down from your best 11.

Likewise, we have Carra and Agger playing in the league one game, looking tight as a duck's a*se, and then Hyypia and Paletta the next, shipping 6 goals against a second string Arsenal side in the Carling Cup. That's not rotation failing us, that's our back-up players failing us.

Look at our options (before injuries hit)...

Reina

Finnan Carra Agger Riise

Pennant Gerrard Alonso Kewell

Kuyt Crouch

Dudek

Arbeloa Paletta Hyypia Aurelio

Garcia Mascherano Sissoko Zenden

Fowler Bellamy

In theory, that second 11 isn't too bad - on their good days this season, Arbeloa and Hyypia have looked worthy of a first 11 spot; ditto Fowler, Bellamy, Mascherano and Sissoko.

But there are clear weak points - Paletta and Zenden are clearly not first 11 material. Then, take Aurelio and Garcia out of there (which we've had to this season; as with Kewell from our first 11), and suddenly relatively untried players like Peltier and Insua come into the equation.

I fault Rafa for sticking to his guns too rigidly. If that second 11 was closer to the first 11, rotation would have cost us nowhere near as many points in the league as it has. We just don't have the personnel to make it work for us right now though. Filling a red shirt with anybody may give our regulars a break, but what's the point if it's damaging our results?

I'd personally rather we just ran our quality players into the ground and give them a rest when they genuinely need it as opposed to breaking up a winning side because we might have a busy few weeks 3 months down the line.

It has been a disappointing season, but thankfully there's still a huge prize ahead if we get it right in one game in Athens. I just hope this is the last transitional season we have for quite a while. Big summer ahead for the club, and I hope Rafa earns his corn.

by **puroresu** » Mon May 14, 2007 1:07 pm

i think next season Rafa has to be prepared to open up, especially away from home. He has to believe in the players ability to score more goals than the opposition. No more going away to Bolton and changing our system to accomadate them.

by **Sabre** » Mon May 14, 2007 1:11 pm

Ivor the injun's post about proper squad depth is spot on, IMHO, good post.

We only had the proper depth to play many competitions after Mascha and Arbeloa came. We're better than 2 years ago in depth, but still, we have to improve.

by **BOODIDDY** » Mon May 14, 2007 1:22 pm

its fair to say that away from home we have been pathetic but in all honesty if we were prepared better at the beginningof the season then we might have put more effort into the league. Our challenge was over by end of september, hence the reason to focus on the cl. The fa cup was another thing, we were beaten by a good arsenal team. We had a lot of changes this season. More than the other "big three". Yet, the press have been unfair to us. Arsenal have been their babes, whereas chelsea and man u ar ethe press' favourites. Yet we finished above an apparent great future arsenal team. Knocked a team that =cost half a billion to assemble out of the biggest competition in club football. Beat the reigning european champions in their own back yard.

Where does the doom and gloom come from. If we win in athens we are champions of europe ffs!

Look back on that in years to come and people will remember our 6th european win rather than man poo's league title.

by **Big Niall** » Mon May 14, 2007 1:28 pm

I don't think Rafa has belief that we can beat good teams by playing football. He is of the keep it tight and when you get the ball kick it long to a big man up front.

Mourinho doesn't use rotation much, Either does Ferguson - think about it - who are our front 2? sometimes Kuyt/Crouch , sometimes Kuyt/Bellamy sometimes Crouch/Bellamy. I don't think Rafa knows what our best team is?

Wenger plays Henry (practically)every game when he is fit, not one of our strikers is a definite starter in a league game.

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A hugely disappointing season....on many fronts - Let not athens distract you....

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