Liverpool FC Forum

Stu.Murph wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:If there is a case where the player is clearly not good enough, I would accept that they should leave, but with young players it is difficult to tell, I remember a young unconfident Carragher who was at the time fairly mediocre. Now he is one of the best centre halves in the world. The same could be said for a young Vieira at Milan or even a young Michael Carrick at West Ham.

If I was to judge on the balance of probability in Gonzales reaching a level which is consistent enough and of a high enough quality for Liverpool I would say he would not, but, Benitez has more experience and knowledge than me in distinguishing this ability, therefore I think it is only reasonable that he gets another season to show his ability.

You mention Carragher yet its funny from day one I could see he was exactly what he was and I always defended the lad.

He was always an excellent defender who never got the credit he deserved. He now wrongly gets overated by Liverpool fans due to his ability to play in our system and us get the best out of him. He's in truth got no more ability than Frank Lampard as a footballer. His heart, passion and style of play make him into what he is for this club. For you to sit there and call Carragher "one of the best in the world" is absoloutely laughable and again smacks of rose tinted specticles. There is a MASSIVE difference in being a club player and a world class footballer with an international level
of ability. Jamie doesn't have the pace, strength, arial dominance and technical ability to even come close to being considered a world class player.

As for Gonzalez, if you really are that blind as to think Benitez got it right with that signing then you might aswell not bother. Benitez hasn't signed players of the required quality. No if, buts, maybes or "give him time" arguements will ever change that.

I will put a grand on it right now with you Sissoko is never deamed a true world class player in the way Gerrard, Keane of Vieira is by the time he reaches thirty.

£1,000. Theres my knowledge backed up lad. I'm more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. I was going to say more than that but I think a weeks wages give or take a hundred is a fair amount.

I'll also relay the same amount for Gonzalez.

Also to slate Vieira at Milan is just rediculous. How often did you see him play there? Robbie Fowler was on City's bench at the expense of Vassell, are you going to sit there and say Vassell's better than Robbie was over the last few years? And mentioning Carrick, again another player who's shown nothing at United that he didn't show at West Ham.

I can't quite believe some of the things you've come out with. I'm at a loss to even start to think of where this you spout comes from, I really am.

Stu.Murph wrote:He was always an excellent defender who never got the credit he deserved. He now wrongly gets overated by Liverpool fans due to his ability to play in our system and us get the best out of him. He's in truth got no more ability than Frank Lampard as a footballer. His heart, passion and style of play make him into what he is for this club. For you to sit there and call Carragher "one of the best in the world" is absoloutely laughable and again smacks of rose tinted specticles. There is a MASSIVE difference in being a club player and a world class footballer with an international level
of ability. Jamie doesn't have the pace, strength, arial dominance and technical ability to even come close to being considered a world class player.

Stu, I've highlighted what I think are the key phrases in your argument (an argument, BTW, that you've made before...especially during the World Cup this summer).  What you've set out here is precisely why you fall on the opposite side of the "fence" to so many on here.  In your view, players like Agger, Sissoko and Kuyt will never be "world class" and I'm inclined to agree with you in the sense that, after their careers have ended and people run the rule over their contributions to football, they will not likely be mentioned in the same breath as true world class players like Zidane or Maradona or Beckenbauer.  You also make the same claim for Carragher, which some people would find hard to swallow.  Nonetheless, I'll agree with you again that Carragher will never be considered "world class" by the footballing world when all is said and done in terms of his career.

Nonetheless, you argue that he's a great club player that suits our system perfectly and that's why he's a Liverpool legend (you've said as much in recent weeks).  So, isn't that really what most Liverpool fans are looking for and care about at the end of the day?  We want players who will suit a winning system.  Whether they are "world class" or not is more or less irrelevant.  Whether they would "walk into" United's side or Chelsea's side is also more or less irrelevant because they don't play our system.  As long as our system is sound--and I still think Rafa's getting that right--then we need the players that can slot into it well and help it work.  So, Agger might not be the next Rio Ferdinand but if he fits our system who cares?  Same goes for Sissoko or Kuyt or Crouch.

I think you place far too much emphasis on this "world class" stuff.  Shevchenko and Ballack are arguably "world class" or at least "international class" but they haven't made Chelsea a better team and have arguably weakened them by upsetting the apple cart.  For me, it's not a matter of simply going out and getting world class/international class players in every position and expecting them all to cohere into a title-winning side.  The players must suit the system--something you clearly acknowledge otherwise you'd be saying Carragher's not good enough either, right? 

Bad Bob wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:He was always an excellent defender who never got the credit he deserved. He now wrongly gets overated by Liverpool fans due to his ability to play in our system and us get the best out of him. He's in truth got no more ability than Frank Lampard as a footballer. His heart, passion and style of play make him into what he is for this club. For you to sit there and call Carragher "one of the best in the world" is absoloutely laughable and again smacks of rose tinted specticles. There is a MASSIVE difference in being a club player and a world class footballer with an international level
of ability. Jamie doesn't have the pace, strength, arial dominance and technical ability to even come close to being considered a world class player.

Stu, I've highlighted what I think are the key phrases in your argument (an argument, BTW, that you've made before...especially during the World Cup this summer).  What you've set out here is precisely why you fall on the opposite side of the "fence" to so many on here.  In your view, players like Agger, Sissoko and Kuyt will never be "world class" and I'm inclined to agree with you in the sense that, after their careers have ended and people run the rule over their contributions to football, they will not likely be mentioned in the same breath as true world class players like Zidane or Maradona or Beckenbauer.  You also make the same claim for Carragher, which some people would find hard to swallow.  Nonetheless, I'll agree with you again that Carragher will never be considered "world class" by the footballing world when all is said and done in terms of his career.

Nonetheless, you argue that he's a great club player that suits our system perfectly and that's why he's a Liverpool legend (you've said as much in recent weeks).  So, isn't that really what most Liverpool fans are looking for and care about at the end of the day?  We want players who will suit a winning system.  Whether they are "world class" or not is more or less irrelevant.  Whether they would "walk into" United's side or Chelsea's side is also more or less irrelevant because they don't play our system.  As long as our system is sound--and I still think Rafa's getting that right--then we need the players that can slot into it well and help it work.  So, Agger might not be the next Rio Ferdinand but if he fits our system who cares?  Same goes for Sissoko or Kuyt or Crouch.

I think you place far too much emphasis on this "world class" stuff.  Shevchenko and Ballack are arguably "world class" or at least "international class" but they haven't made Chelsea a better team and have arguably weakened them by upsetting the apple cart.  For me, it's not a matter of simply going out and getting world class/international class players in every position and expecting them all to cohere into a title-winning side.  The players must suit the system--something you clearly acknowledge otherwise you'd be saying Carragher's not good enough either, right?