Liverpool FC Forum

Stu.Murph wrote:

7_Kewell wrote:

LFC #1 wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:This is another debate worth debating.

Agger eptomises the modern day center-half for me as he's very good on the ball, he likes to more often than not play the ball out of defence, and at the same time he's not a bad defender. He does have the attributes to get better with time, how much better I dont know, but it could be considerably. Its a known fact that a Center half does get better with age.

In that time, I'd like to see him take all of Hyypia's strenghts, like positioning, reading of the game, knowing when to challenge for a high ball and went to step back a yard. He was at times to close to Drogba the other night. Also he does need to improve on heading the ball, and being more of a hard b.astard at the back. He does seem slightly light weight and could do with a bit of weight on top.
Like I said his technical abilities on the ball are good, its being a defender where he has a fair bit of room to improve.

I think he's coped well all season and against all different strikers, the only one I can think of who he did struggle against was Drogba. But thats not bad for a young lad not atall, Carra often has a nightmare against Henry, so there will always be one or two strikers out there on their day who will give any defender a run for their money. But all in all I think we could stick with Agger again next season, I think he's proved more oftern than not to be capable and like its been said he'll get much better with age.

Thats not to say we couldnt look for another Center-half I doubt Hyypia will be around for ever to lend sufficent cover. He may retire after next season I dont know, but now wouldnt be a bad time to prepare for it.

Reaosnable assessment of the lad.

As for the centre-half issue, we definitley need another one IMO. Agger, Carra and an ageing Hyypia for all competitons next season is not enough and Paletta is not good neough to even be 4th choice.

Woodgate would've been ideal but now we need to look elsewhere. It's definitely a priority area for me, along with left wing and up front.

Upson?  He'll be avilable in the summer with a buy out clause if West Ham go down.

Leonmc0708 wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

7_Kewell wrote:

LFC #1 wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:This is another debate worth debating.

Agger eptomises the modern day center-half for me as he's very good on the ball, he likes to more often than not play the ball out of defence, and at the same time he's not a bad defender. He does have the attributes to get better with time, how much better I dont know, but it could be considerably. Its a known fact that a Center half does get better with age.

In that time, I'd like to see him take all of Hyypia's strenghts, like positioning, reading of the game, knowing when to challenge for a high ball and went to step back a yard. He was at times to close to Drogba the other night. Also he does need to improve on heading the ball, and being more of a hard b.astard at the back. He does seem slightly light weight and could do with a bit of weight on top.
Like I said his technical abilities on the ball are good, its being a defender where he has a fair bit of room to improve.

I think he's coped well all season and against all different strikers, the only one I can think of who he did struggle against was Drogba. But thats not bad for a young lad not atall, Carra often has a nightmare against Henry, so there will always be one or two strikers out there on their day who will give any defender a run for their money. But all in all I think we could stick with Agger again next season, I think he's proved more oftern than not to be capable and like its been said he'll get much better with age.

Thats not to say we couldnt look for another Center-half I doubt Hyypia will be around for ever to lend sufficent cover. He may retire after next season I dont know, but now wouldnt be a bad time to prepare for it.

Reaosnable assessment of the lad.

As for the centre-half issue, we definitley need another one IMO. Agger, Carra and an ageing Hyypia for all competitons next season is not enough and Paletta is not good neough to even be 4th choice.

Woodgate would've been ideal but now we need to look elsewhere. It's definitely a priority area for me, along with left wing and up front.

Upson?  He'll be avilable in the summer with a buy out clause if West Ham go down.

Lad dont make me search for the threads you started wanting usto sign him

Bamaga man wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:This is another debate worth debating.

Agger eptomises the modern day center-half for me as he's very good on the ball, he likes to more often than not play the ball out of defence, and at the same time he's not a bad defender. He does have the attributes to get better with time, how much better I dont know, but it could be considerably. Its a known fact that a Center half does get better with age.

In that time, I'd like to see him take all of Hyypia's strenghts, like positioning, reading of the game, knowing when to challenge for a high ball and went to step back a yard. He was at times to close to Drogba the other night. Also he does need to improve on heading the ball, and being more of a hard b.astard at the back. He does seem slightly light weight and could do with a bit of weight on top.
Like I said his technical abilities on the ball are good, its being a defender where he has a fair bit of room to improve.

I think he's coped well all season and against all different strikers, the only one I can think of who he did struggle against was Drogba. But thats not bad for a young lad not atall, Carra often has a nightmare against Henry, so there will always be one or two strikers out there on their day who will give any defender a run for their money. But all in all I think we could stick with Agger again next season, I think he's proved more oftern than not to be capable and like its been said he'll get much better with age.

Thats not to say we couldnt look for another Center-half I doubt Hyypia will be around for ever to lend sufficent cover. He may retire after next season I dont know, but now wouldnt be a bad time to prepare for it.

You're deluding yourself. Players can't learn to be something aren't. It just doesn't happen otherwise every player we had would learn to be something they aren't and we'd be unstoppable. Its as simple as that.

Hyypia's strengths will always be Agger's weaknesses.

I'd agree with you if a player has never got it now he'll never have it. But not specifcaly in this case,  we know Agger has "got it" when the ball is at his feet we are comfortable knowing he isnt a donkey.
So what we say usually is, if he's not naturally gifted he will never be, but Agger has got a natural gift.
Now what he doesnt have, that Sami does does actually come with age . Its not the technical side of his game that is in questioning, its more his intelligence side. Like: reading of the game and positioning, these things will come to a player eventually, I actually think that Carra has slightly improved ever since he was moved their and thats probably largely down to confidence and also the experiance of playing there for a while now.

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:This is another debate worth debating.

Agger eptomises the modern day center-half for me as he's very good on the ball, he likes to more often than not play the ball out of defence, and at the same time he's not a bad defender. He does have the attributes to get better with time, how much better I dont know, but it could be considerably. Its a known fact that a Center half does get better with age.

In that time, I'd like to see him take all of Hyypia's strenghts, like positioning, reading of the game, knowing when to challenge for a high ball and went to step back a yard. He was at times to close to Drogba the other night. Also he does need to improve on heading the ball, and being more of a hard b.astard at the back. He does seem slightly light weight and could do with a bit of weight on top.
Like I said his technical abilities on the ball are good, its being a defender where he has a fair bit of room to improve.

I think he's coped well all season and against all different strikers, the only one I can think of who he did struggle against was Drogba. But thats not bad for a young lad not atall, Carra often has a nightmare against Henry, so there will always be one or two strikers out there on their day who will give any defender a run for their money. But all in all I think we could stick with Agger again next season, I think he's proved more oftern than not to be capable and like its been said he'll get much better with age.

Thats not to say we couldnt look for another Center-half I doubt Hyypia will be around for ever to lend sufficent cover. He may retire after next season I dont know, but now wouldnt be a bad time to prepare for it.

You're deluding yourself. Players can't learn to be something aren't. It just doesn't happen otherwise every player we had would learn to be something they aren't and we'd be unstoppable. Its as simple as that.

Hyypia's strengths will always be Agger's weaknesses.

I'd agree with you if a player has never got it now he'll never have it. But not specifcaly in this case,  we know Agger has "got it" when the ball is at his feet we are comfortable knowing he isnt a donkey.
So what we say usually is, if he's not naturally gifted he will never be, but Agger has got a natural gift.
Now what he doesnt have, that Sami does does actually come with age . Its not the technical side of his game that is in questioning, its more his intelligence side. Like: reading of the game and positioning, these things will come to a player eventually, I actually think that Carra has slightly improved ever since he was moved their and thats probably largely down to confidence and also the experiance of playing there for a while now.

He may improve slightly. But the fact is Hyypia crusifies Agger in terms of positioning, strength, decision making, concentration, anticipation, choice of pass, marking, influence, bottle, aggression and general ability to head a ball aswell as win a header.

Agger isn't even close to Sami in any of those aspects of the game and he never will be. Carraghers always been able to read the game, always been safety first and always been tenaciuos, he's improved ever so slightly due to confidence and experience but he's not miles better in terms of ability to when he first came through.

Agger has a long way to go for me.

One of them must be replaced and theres absoloutely no way on the face of this earth I'd replace Carragher with anyone. End of.

LFC2007 wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:This is another debate worth debating.

Agger eptomises the modern day center-half for me as he's very good on the ball, he likes to more often than not play the ball out of defence, and at the same time he's not a bad defender. He does have the attributes to get better with time, how much better I dont know, but it could be considerably. Its a known fact that a Center half does get better with age.

In that time, I'd like to see him take all of Hyypia's strenghts, like positioning, reading of the game, knowing when to challenge for a high ball and went to step back a yard. He was at times to close to Drogba the other night. Also he does need to improve on heading the ball, and being more of a hard b.astard at the back. He does seem slightly light weight and could do with a bit of weight on top.
Like I said his technical abilities on the ball are good, its being a defender where he has a fair bit of room to improve.

I think he's coped well all season and against all different strikers, the only one I can think of who he did struggle against was Drogba. But thats not bad for a young lad not atall, Carra often has a nightmare against Henry, so there will always be one or two strikers out there on their day who will give any defender a run for their money. But all in all I think we could stick with Agger again next season, I think he's proved more oftern than not to be capable and like its been said he'll get much better with age.

Thats not to say we couldnt look for another Center-half I doubt Hyypia will be around for ever to lend sufficent cover. He may retire after next season I dont know, but now wouldnt be a bad time to prepare for it.

You're deluding yourself. Players can't learn to be something aren't. It just doesn't happen otherwise every player we had would learn to be something they aren't and we'd be unstoppable. Its as simple as that.

Hyypia's strengths will always be Agger's weaknesses.

I'd agree with you if a player has never got it now he'll never have it. But not specifcaly in this case,  we know Agger has "got it" when the ball is at his feet we are comfortable knowing he isnt a donkey.
So what we say usually is, if he's not naturally gifted he will never be, but Agger has got a natural gift.
Now what he doesnt have, that Sami does does actually come with age . Its not the technical side of his game that is in questioning, its more his intelligence side. Like: reading of the game and positioning, these things will come to a player eventually, I actually think that Carra has slightly improved ever since he was moved their and thats probably largely down to confidence and also the experiance of playing there for a while now.

He may improve slightly. But the fact is Hyypia crusifies Agger in terms of positioning, strength, decision making, concentration, anticipation, choice of pass, marking, influence, bottle, aggression and general ability to head a ball aswell as win a header.

Agger isn't even close to Sami in any of those aspects of the game and he never will be. Carraghers always been able to read the game, always been safety first and always been tenaciuos, he's improved ever so slightly due to confidence and experience but he's not miles better in terms of ability to when he first came through.

Agger has a long way to go for me.

One of them must be replaced and theres absoloutely no way on the face of this earth I'd replace Carragher with anyone. End of.

I couldn't disagree with you more about agger. The attributes that he lacks can be worked on and he will improve with age, to say he will never be close to Hyypia is a premature statement - you simply don't know, Agger has been first choice this season and Benitez has shown his belief that agger is a top centre half. I don't know where all this cynicism comes from, you are supposed to be supporters of Liverpool football club not picking holes in every player and destroying their credentials prematurely.

Well said mate.

LFC2007 wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:This is another debate worth debating.

Agger eptomises the modern day center-half for me as he's very good on the ball, he likes to more often than not play the ball out of defence, and at the same time he's not a bad defender. He does have the attributes to get better with time, how much better I dont know, but it could be considerably. Its a known fact that a Center half does get better with age.

In that time, I'd like to see him take all of Hyypia's strenghts, like positioning, reading of the game, knowing when to challenge for a high ball and went to step back a yard. He was at times to close to Drogba the other night. Also he does need to improve on heading the ball, and being more of a hard b.astard at the back. He does seem slightly light weight and could do with a bit of weight on top.
Like I said his technical abilities on the ball are good, its being a defender where he has a fair bit of room to improve.

I think he's coped well all season and against all different strikers, the only one I can think of who he did struggle against was Drogba. But thats not bad for a young lad not atall, Carra often has a nightmare against Henry, so there will always be one or two strikers out there on their day who will give any defender a run for their money. But all in all I think we could stick with Agger again next season, I think he's proved more oftern than not to be capable and like its been said he'll get much better with age.

Thats not to say we couldnt look for another Center-half I doubt Hyypia will be around for ever to lend sufficent cover. He may retire after next season I dont know, but now wouldnt be a bad time to prepare for it.

You're deluding yourself. Players can't learn to be something aren't. It just doesn't happen otherwise every player we had would learn to be something they aren't and we'd be unstoppable. Its as simple as that.

Hyypia's strengths will always be Agger's weaknesses.

I'd agree with you if a player has never got it now he'll never have it. But not specifcaly in this case,  we know Agger has "got it" when the ball is at his feet we are comfortable knowing he isnt a donkey.
So what we say usually is, if he's not naturally gifted he will never be, but Agger has got a natural gift.
Now what he doesnt have, that Sami does does actually come with age . Its not the technical side of his game that is in questioning, its more his intelligence side. Like: reading of the game and positioning, these things will come to a player eventually, I actually think that Carra has slightly improved ever since he was moved their and thats probably largely down to confidence and also the experiance of playing there for a while now.

He may improve slightly. But the fact is Hyypia crusifies Agger in terms of positioning, strength, decision making, concentration, anticipation, choice of pass, marking, influence, bottle, aggression and general ability to head a ball aswell as win a header.

Agger isn't even close to Sami in any of those aspects of the game and he never will be. Carraghers always been able to read the game, always been safety first and always been tenaciuos, he's improved ever so slightly due to confidence and experience but he's not miles better in terms of ability to when he first came through.

Agger has a long way to go for me.

One of them must be replaced and theres absoloutely no way on the face of this earth I'd replace Carragher with anyone. End of.

I couldn't disagree with you more about agger. The attributes that he lacks can be worked on and he will improve with age, to say he will never be close to Hyypia is a premature statement - you simply don't know, Agger has been first choice this season and Benitez has shown his belief that agger is a top centre half. I don't know where all this cynicism comes from, you are supposed to be supporters of Liverpool football club not picking holes in every player and destroying their credentials prematurely.

STU GOT TOLD 

Stu.Murph wrote:

LFC #1 wrote:

SouthCoastShankly wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

stmichael wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:Daniel Agger though in my opinion is not and probably never will be the answer in Liverpool's defence. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it.

He is not a better player than Sami Hyypia was at his best.

yeah but hyypia was in his prime when he was 27-28. agger's only 21.

Owen was 17, whats your point?

Owen wasn't at his best at 17. He was at his best when he was 21, the year he scored the hat-trick against Germany.

Agger isn't at his best now, how can he be? This will be his first full season. Agger has all the assets the be one of the best centre-backs in the world. He's good in the air, his distribution is good, he has a cracking shot and scores. For his age he is miles apart from most of his peers. All the potential for greatness in my opinion.

Having a good shot isn't an attribute you'd immediately look for in a centre-half, but it's a nice addition for sure. He also looks good on the ball when coming forward. His distribution is good, but could be better. I think his ability on the ball actually gives people the impression his distribution is better than it actually is. It's good, but he still looks for a long ball when there is a better option available short on occasions. I'd say his distribution is definitley the best of our 3 centre halves though (Carra, Sami and himself).

That being said howver, his reading of the game is still only decent and he does lose concentration and is a little too nonchalant for my liking sometimes. In this area of the game, like Stu said he'll never reach Sami's level IMO.

He's been a good signing and is definitley first team material, but could we improve on him? probably. I still think as soon as Sami goes another top quality centre half is a must as Paletta is one I'm not sure about either.   

Overall I still think Stu is being a little harsh on him.

Overall I just think you shove it up your .

Seriously though, do you honestly think Scott, he'll be as good as Vidic, Ferdinand, Woodgate, Toure, Gallas, Terry or any of the other top quality centre halfs in this country?

I certainly don't.

I don't think he's a bad player, don't get me wrong. But I think the likes of Woodgate are a class above and what we should be looking to sign.

Ola Mr Benitez wrote:Agger was awesome last night.  That good and he's only 21 (isn't he?)

Rafa-Dodd wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:This is another debate worth debating.

Agger eptomises the modern day center-half for me as he's very good on the ball, he likes to more often than not play the ball out of defence, and at the same time he's not a bad defender. He does have the attributes to get better with time, how much better I dont know, but it could be considerably. Its a known fact that a Center half does get better with age.

In that time, I'd like to see him take all of Hyypia's strenghts, like positioning, reading of the game, knowing when to challenge for a high ball and went to step back a yard. He was at times to close to Drogba the other night. Also he does need to improve on heading the ball, and being more of a hard b.astard at the back. He does seem slightly light weight and could do with a bit of weight on top.
Like I said his technical abilities on the ball are good, its being a defender where he has a fair bit of room to improve.

I think he's coped well all season and against all different strikers, the only one I can think of who he did struggle against was Drogba. But thats not bad for a young lad not atall, Carra often has a nightmare against Henry, so there will always be one or two strikers out there on their day who will give any defender a run for their money. But all in all I think we could stick with Agger again next season, I think he's proved more oftern than not to be capable and like its been said he'll get much better with age.

Thats not to say we couldnt look for another Center-half I doubt Hyypia will be around for ever to lend sufficent cover. He may retire after next season I dont know, but now wouldnt be a bad time to prepare for it.

You're deluding yourself. Players can't learn to be something aren't. It just doesn't happen otherwise every player we had would learn to be something they aren't and we'd be unstoppable. Its as simple as that.

Hyypia's strengths will always be Agger's weaknesses.

I'd agree with you if a player has never got it now he'll never have it. But not specifcaly in this case,  we know Agger has "got it" when the ball is at his feet we are comfortable knowing he isnt a donkey.
So what we say usually is, if he's not naturally gifted he will never be, but Agger has got a natural gift.
Now what he doesnt have, that Sami does does actually come with age . Its not the technical side of his game that is in questioning, its more his intelligence side. Like: reading of the game and positioning, these things will come to a player eventually, I actually think that Carra has slightly improved ever since he was moved their and thats probably largely down to confidence and also the experiance of playing there for a while now.

He may improve slightly. But the fact is Hyypia crusifies Agger in terms of positioning, strength, decision making, concentration, anticipation, choice of pass, marking, influence, bottle, aggression and general ability to head a ball aswell as win a header.

Agger isn't even close to Sami in any of those aspects of the game and he never will be. Carraghers always been able to read the game, always been safety first and always been tenaciuos, he's improved ever so slightly due to confidence and experience but he's not miles better in terms of ability to when he first came through.

Agger has a long way to go for me.

One of them must be replaced and theres absoloutely no way on the face of this earth I'd replace Carragher with anyone. End of.

I couldn't disagree with you more about agger. The attributes that he lacks can be worked on and he will improve with age, to say he will never be close to Hyypia is a premature statement - you simply don't know, Agger has been first choice this season and Benitez has shown his belief that agger is a top centre half. I don't know where all this cynicism comes from, you are supposed to be supporters of Liverpool football club not picking holes in every player and destroying their credentials prematurely.

STU GOT TOLD 

I got told because he played well and scored a cracking goal?

So let me get this straight...

He had a nightmare and good game and all of a sudden I'm wrong about him?

LFC2007 wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:This is another debate worth debating.

Agger eptomises the modern day center-half for me as he's very good on the ball, he likes to more often than not play the ball out of defence, and at the same time he's not a bad defender. He does have the attributes to get better with time, how much better I dont know, but it could be considerably. Its a known fact that a Center half does get better with age.

In that time, I'd like to see him take all of Hyypia's strenghts, like positioning, reading of the game, knowing when to challenge for a high ball and went to step back a yard. He was at times to close to Drogba the other night. Also he does need to improve on heading the ball, and being more of a hard b.astard at the back. He does seem slightly light weight and could do with a bit of weight on top.
Like I said his technical abilities on the ball are good, its being a defender where he has a fair bit of room to improve.

I think he's coped well all season and against all different strikers, the only one I can think of who he did struggle against was Drogba. But thats not bad for a young lad not atall, Carra often has a nightmare against Henry, so there will always be one or two strikers out there on their day who will give any defender a run for their money. But all in all I think we could stick with Agger again next season, I think he's proved more oftern than not to be capable and like its been said he'll get much better with age.

Thats not to say we couldnt look for another Center-half I doubt Hyypia will be around for ever to lend sufficent cover. He may retire after next season I dont know, but now wouldnt be a bad time to prepare for it.

You're deluding yourself. Players can't learn to be something aren't. It just doesn't happen otherwise every player we had would learn to be something they aren't and we'd be unstoppable. Its as simple as that.

Hyypia's strengths will always be Agger's weaknesses.

I'd agree with you if a player has never got it now he'll never have it. But not specifcaly in this case,  we know Agger has "got it" when the ball is at his feet we are comfortable knowing he isnt a donkey.
So what we say usually is, if he's not naturally gifted he will never be, but Agger has got a natural gift.
Now what he doesnt have, that Sami does does actually come with age . Its not the technical side of his game that is in questioning, its more his intelligence side. Like: reading of the game and positioning, these things will come to a player eventually, I actually think that Carra has slightly improved ever since he was moved their and thats probably largely down to confidence and also the experiance of playing there for a while now.

He may improve slightly. But the fact is Hyypia crusifies Agger in terms of positioning, strength, decision making, concentration, anticipation, choice of pass, marking, influence, bottle, aggression and general ability to head a ball aswell as win a header.

Agger isn't even close to Sami in any of those aspects of the game and he never will be. Carraghers always been able to read the game, always been safety first and always been tenaciuos, he's improved ever so slightly due to confidence and experience but he's not miles better in terms of ability to when he first came through.

Agger has a long way to go for me.

One of them must be replaced and theres absoloutely no way on the face of this earth I'd replace Carragher with anyone. End of.

I couldn't disagree with you more about agger. The attributes that he lacks can be worked on and he will improve with age, to say he will never be close to Hyypia is a premature statement - you simply don't know, Agger has been first choice this season and Benitez has shown his belief that agger is a top centre half. I don't know where all this cynicism comes from, you are supposed to be supporters of Liverpool football club not picking holes in every player and destroying their credentials prematurely.

So all players who aren't good enough we give five years to develope and then make a decision?

Tell you what lets give Gonzalez, Kuyt, Bellamy and all the rest five years because "we don't know" they aren't good enough...

LFC2007 wrote:If there is a case where the player is clearly not good enough, I would accept that they should leave, but with young players it is difficult to tell, I remember a young unconfident Carragher who was at the time fairly mediocre. Now he is one of the best centre halves in the world. The same could be said for a young Vieira at Milan or even a young Michael Carrick at West Ham.

If I was to judge on the balance of probability in Gonzales reaching a level which is consistent enough and of a high enough quality for Liverpool I would say he would not, but, Benitez has more experience and knowledge than me in distinguishing this ability, therefore I think it is only reasonable that he gets another season to show his ability.

You mention Carragher yet its funny from day one I could see he was exactly what he was and I always defended the lad.

He was always an excellent defender who never got the credit he deserved. He now wrongly gets overated by Liverpool fans due to his ability to play in our system and us get the best out of him. He's in truth got no more ability than Frank Lampard as a footballer. His heart, passion and style of play make him into what he is for this club. For you to sit there and call Carragher "one of the best in the world" is absoloutely laughable and again smacks of rose tinted specticles. There is a MASSIVE difference in being a club player and a world class footballer with an international level
of ability. Jamie doesn't have the pace, strength, arial dominance and technical ability to even come close to being considered a world class player.

As for Gonzalez, if you really are that blind as to think Benitez got it right with that signing then you might aswell not bother. Benitez hasn't signed players of the required quality. No if, buts, maybes or "give him time" arguements will ever change that.

I will put a grand on it right now with you Sissoko is never deamed a true world class player in the way Gerrard, Keane of Vieira is by the time he reaches thirty.

£1,000. Theres my knowledge backed up lad. I'm more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. I was going to say more than that but I think a weeks wages give or take a hundred is a fair amount.

I'll also relay the same amount for Gonzalez.

Also to slate Vieira at Milan is just rediculous. How often did you see him play there? Robbie Fowler was on City's bench at the expense of Vassell, are you going to sit there and say Vassell's better than Robbie was over the last few years? And mentioning Carrick, again another player who's shown nothing at United that he didn't show at West Ham.

I can't quite believe some of the things you've come out with. I'm at a loss to even start to think of where this you spout comes from, I really am.