Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lucky** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:35 am

Effes wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:A weakened side?:

Reina

Finnan JC Agger Arbeloa

Pennant Alonso Mascherano Riise

Gerrard

Kuyt,

I don't see it myself. I'd say that this is just about our strongest team, with the possible exception of Crouch in for Kuyt on current form.

It looks strong on paper;

But it was the team that started away to City -
they played cack.

Can we stop messing about with Gerrard?
I can just about bear him playing right mid but NOT behind
the striker please.

No, it's not a weakened side. Not at all.
Actually this is something that really confuses me all the time. Why does the similar squard play so differently at home and away? Yes, some teams play us very defensively at their own home. But didn't they do the same when they play us at Anfield? Then if we can penetrate through their fortification in our pitch, why cann't we penetrate in their pitch? The change of a pitch and atmosphere can really make such a big difference? It must have something more to do with our attitude than with our ability. As for that, I don't get the answer from rafa's tactics and our player's performance.

by **eds** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:43 am

Very good thread.

Totally agree with some of the sentiments being expressed. Rafa is clearly making the same mistakes as Season 1 and Season 2. Poor signings and poor form has not helped improving the team, but at the end of the day the blame should lie with Rafa.

Most of us have been bewildered with his tactics and formations with away games. Blaming it on a poor start is an exagerrated excuse. Draws to Man City, Villa, Blackburn (at home) and loses to Man United (at home) and Blackburn (away) in the last 3-4 months (not at the START OF THE SEASON) have cost us 12points. If you put that into perspective we would still be in with a shout of the title as that is 15 more points on the Scum.

I admire guys like Stu (the dude that keeps getting banned) dismissing myths purported by many "so called" supporters and questioning whether Rafa is the right man to lead this club. As I have been saying for a few weeks now, Rafa needs to challenge for the title next year, no more "Bolton is a tough physical team", "We dominated but still lost" or any of that rubbish. Enough is Enough!

Rafa has the money and the club to bring world class players to Liverpool next season and if we see the same of what we saw this season or worse (his first season), I'm sorry but even his Champions League Titles (hopefully 2!) wont be enough to save his job.

by **Effes** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:46 am

I think it comes down to Rafa simply not gearing them to the right mentality.

Sorry to use Man U as an example, but Ferguson instills this attacking mentality
into his players.
You could say he is more imposing than Rafa.

Rafa overdoses on tactics, but starves them of inspiration

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:44 am

Effes wrote:Rafa overdoses on tactics,

yes i agree, do we not have the players to express themselves or are the players scared to express themselves, are rafas tactics stifling?

i think the are, but i always have to come back to away being the same as home, does a different ground make that much of a difference to guys earning a fortune to play football, at city, its just a pitch and a ball, whats so different?

by **Effes** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:48 am

peewee wrote:
Effes wrote:Rafa overdoses on tactics,

yes i agree, do we not have the players to express themselves or are the players scared to express themselves, are rafas tactics stifling?

i think the are, but i always have to come back to away being the same as home, does a different ground make that much of a difference to guys earning a fortune to play football, at city, its just a pitch and a ball, whats so different?

Yeah it does mate.

If you look at league tables all over Europe - over 90% have better home records than away records.
I know you weren't saying that, but it takes a kind of "collective mentality" (especially in the English league which demands a more physical approach) to be able to go to away grounds an impose yourselves.

Shankly was a master in inspiring his players. Paisley didn't have to as his brilliant eye for a certain player meant he had leaders on the pitch.

Look at Mourinho - no way does he have Rafa's tactical nouse , but there is no doubt he inspires his team.

I think this is reflected in the league and Champs League encounters between the 2.
Before January, they had beaten us home and away in the League.
But had not beaten us in 4 games in the Champs League.

by **Effes** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:05 am

I think we are all aware of rafa's success in Spain; and his success with us in Europe

But his big test is being a success in the Prem league.

I think he needs to "tweak" his style; but is he too reluctant to divert from his tried
and tested methods?

The only "Rafa-esque" manager I can think of who has been a succes in the Premier League is Wenger.
But what his strength was that he made quality signings who did the biz for him (Vieira being the best, top quality,
huge build, couldn't be bullied on the pitch, captain)

But Rafa's signings (Alonso has great skill but..) haven't exactly made the kind of impact to take us to the "next level".

Gerrard is a brilliant player, and has inspired the team to great victories with his footballing
ability but I dont think he is a natural leader.
Carragher is the only one.
This is the reason why Mourinho made Terry captain and not Lampard.
Terry is Top Dog amongst the squad - so is Carragher.
Anyway, its too late to change and I dont wana go off on a tangent.

Over the next 5 years I could see Rafa winning the Champs League twice but without winning the league.

by **Effes** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:12 am

Sorry to harp on about this, but when the players cross that line for kick off,
especially away from home, they need to stand tall and they need their captain
to lead them.

It must seem like I'm a Mourinho lover here, but he didn't install his captain straight away.
He went on a tour to the USA with the squad and watched who was Top Dog.
On the plane back to the UK he made Terry captain.

Shankly was just the same. As soon as he signed Ron Yeats he immediatley made him captain.
He was captain for 9 years and helped bring the Title to Liverpool for the first time in nearly 20 years.
(and here we are after 17 years).

Souness - I heard Alan Hansen talk about how they had no fear, because they had Souness with them.

Psychology plays such a big part in football.
So many people get all fuckin scientific about formations/tactics - sorry but the school of science is
for that sorry crowd across the Park.

by **puroresu** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:14 am

The difference with Fergie is he sets his team out to play the same way home or away. Utd play attacking football every game as Fergie believes his players have the ability to score more goals than there opponents regardless who they are.

Liverpool FC should not be adjusting there tactics or system to a less attacking formation v anyone let alone mid to bottom of the table sides. Bolton away was another example where we changed our tactics in fear of Bolton. Thats crazy!!!

by **Sabre** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:19 am

And it's also worth noting that Benítez has achieved as much after two years than had Arsene Wenger or Alex Ferguson in their first half-decades at their current clubs

Period.

I don't give a fúck about Rafa being Spanish to defend him, he comes from Real Madrid, so I loved him as much as you do love the Manchester former coaches. I defend him because I think he's great for this club.

And certainly I think that other big clubs in England did well in putting some time and confidence in their managers. If 2 (possible) Champions League aren't enough to give him the credit, and winning the F.A cup isn't a proof of adapting to the english game, then I can't argue much more.

Sometimes I think that the first CL of Rafa was a doom for him rather than a bless, because he raised the hopes quite a big lot. People talks about winning the CL as if it's a thing that can be done easily: "2 CL are not enough". Well 2 CL are the CLs that have won Barcelona in all their history.

I like criticism, because it's the only way to improve, spotting mistakes and correct them. But implying that Rafa's time might be coming to an end goes beyond the frontier of criticism and enters the realms of impatience and weak knees.

You have models of teams that have given their managers some confidence, Chelsea at some extent, Manure, Arsenal... and they have got the fruits of that patience. Some of them with one CL, some of them with a CL final, some of them with Premiership title. In the other hand you have the model of the impatience, the model of Real Madrid. One manager every year, a new project every year, and blatant waste of money in players. I preffer the first model.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:28 am

i havant seen anyone in this thred say for us to get rid of rafa so your post about changing managers doent follow the thread.

the comments are about his lack of success in the premier league, and his lack of ability in spotting when something isnt working, or rather his stbborness in admitting he is wrong with certain things and then persisiting with it.

if anyone can come in this thread and say we have either had a fantastic season or improved on last season then they are seriously deluded, if anyone can come in this thread and say rafa is not to blame for our league position is also deluding themselves.

yes he won the champions league, yes he won the FA cup, but how far behind are we in the one competition where consistency is important, light years behind to be honest

note the word 'consistency' and apply that to rafas tactics at the start of the season that put us out the title race, and dont come up with that old :censored:

about them being hard games, we all have to play each other twice and to win the league you have to win these games.

i am tired of defensive football, it doesnt work, its not entertaining and its certainly caused by worring about the oposition than letting them worry about us. if rafa doesnt have the confidence in his players to beat the likes of bolton, SU and city he should ship them all out and get players who he is confident in.

by **Sabre** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:31 am

i havant seen anyone in this thred say for us to get rid of rafa so your post about changing managers doent follow the thread.

I see. I was talking about this comment

Rafa has the money and the club to bring world class players to Liverpool next season and if we see the same of what we saw this season or worse (his first season), I'm sorry but even his Champions League Titles (hopefully 2!) wont be enough to save his job.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:32 am

and where does that say he wants rafa out?

he is displaying a worry rather than a desire

i am trying to put myself in your shoes here sabre but i cant, the main differnce between us is that i have a passion for my club, you support real sociedad so you are not speaking with your heart in relation to this. it would be like me trying to be pasionate about your club, it just wouldnt happen, too sterile and clinical.

my passion for my club gives me the right to express opinions on what is happening, and in my opinion we are falling way short of what we should be achieving. if that means that rafa is not the right man for the job in the long run then so be it, just like houllier wanst, just like souness wasnt, just like evans wasnt.

the most important thing for me is the club, not an individual who up to now has fallen short in the league every season, and not only fallen short repeated the same mistakes and shown no progress in the league. these are the facts

by **Effes** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:34 am

Sabre wrote:
And it's also worth noting that Benítez has achieved as much after two years than had Arsene Wenger or Alex Ferguson in their first half-decades at their current clubs

Period.

And certainly I think that other big clubs in England did well in putting some time and confidence in their managers. If 2 (possible) Champions League aren't enough to give him the credit, and winning the F.A cup isn't a proof of adapting to the english game, then I can't argue much more.

Wenger won the DOUBLE in his SECOND season.

Sabre mate, you always make good points but..

The thing about what he's done - yea great and I dont know any "Rafa out" people, BUT..

I want that fucker at Old Trafford end his days knowing he didn't knock us off our perch!

5-2 in European Cups, great. We should still be ahead in 10 years if we dont win it again. BUT..

18-15 (soon to be 16) is getting too fuckin close.

WE WANT THE LEAGUE.
We want to be the top dogs in our league.

Our Messiah said the League was our bread and butter - we grew up on that saying. And he was right.
I cant stand the thought of anyone having more league titles than us.
I grew up withg us being the top club, and I wanna die with us still being the top club.

The thread is about our away form, because that has been the problem when it comes to competing in the league.

"Never mind the European Cup, it's been a good thing for Liverpool" (as Shankly said) "But this, this is our bread and butter".

All the reds in Liverppol want the league.
17 years without the league has been the the most barren patch in Liverpool's modern era

We simply want that barren patch to end, it's a shamefully long time to wait.
How much patience do we need?

[Thats patience in reference to 17 years, not Rafa's reign - just before people jump down my throat]

by **Sabre** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:43 am

Effes wrote:
Sabre wrote:
And it's also worth noting that Benítez has achieved as much after two years than had Arsene Wenger or Alex Ferguson in their first half-decades at their current clubs

Period.

And certainly I think that other big clubs in England did well in putting some time and confidence in their managers. If 2 (possible) Champions League aren't enough to give him the credit, and winning the F.A cup isn't a proof of adapting to the english game, then I can't argue much more.

Wenger won the DOUBLE in his SECOND season.

Sabre mate, you always make good points but..

The thing about what he's done - yea great and I dont know any "Rafa out" people, BUT..

I want that fucker at Old Trafford end his days knowing he didn't knock us off our perch!

5-2 in European Cups, great. We should still be ahead in 10 years if we dont win it again. BUT..

18-15 (soon to be 16) is getting to fuckin close.

WE WANT THE LEAGUE.
We want to be the top dogs in our league.

Our Messiah said the League was our bread and butter - we grew up on that saying. And he was right.
I cant stand the thought of anyone having more league titles than us.
I grew up withg us being the top club, and I wanna die with us still being the top club.

The thread is about our away form, because that has been the problem when it comes to competing in the league.

"Never mind the European Cup, it's been a good thing for Liverpool" (as Shankly said) "But this, this is our bread and butter.

All the reds in Liverppol want the league.
17 years without the league has been the the most barren patch in Liverpool's modern era

We simply want that barren patch to end, it's a shamefully long time to wait.
How much patience do we need?

It's all right Effes mate, I like threads with different opinions

If you analyse your last post what there's behind your words is the LFC love you have. We all hate Manure, you hate them more because are closer to them and the stink is bigger. We all want to win the league, and we just disagree in our views, which is nice.

17 years are too many. And 3 years of patience with a man that so far has 2 major titles, I think it's not enough.

Hopefully we'll win the league next year because as Peewee pointed out somewhere in this thread (quoting Shankly) it's really the bread and butter.

I'd like to know though, IN CASE we had to switch managers, who do you think it might be the right man for getting us the league? (I'm an utter ignorant in English football except for LFC, and in Spain there is no better man than Rafa).

by **Effes** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:46 am

Fucks sake, I edited my last post with reference to "patience".

Rafa defo needs more time, OF COURSE.

AS I SAID, I'M NOT A RAFA OUT MAN AND I DONT KNOW ANYONE WHO IS

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