Liverpool FC Forum

Bamaga man wrote:

As for the first bit: Tell me an English player who's as good as Xabi at what he does? If Xabi was English, England would be knocking on the door at every major tournamant.

Tell me a Spanish player who is as good as Gerrard at what he does ?

WHats the point in this ?

I dont think thats quite true, England are in need of a Left midfielder (have been for years) also a right midfielder, so that Gerrard can occupy the central area. With a player like Xabi Alonso, defensively England dont have the problems its attacking and width wise.

Enough of England though back to the Pool.

But people confuse Spanish players with players who play in Spain!

So id say Messi!

Sabre wrote:

What have LFC had from Spain that they cannot get in England....NOTHING!

Sabre can you actually as a mod stay out of a discussion?You're starting to do my head in mate your in the middle of every chat!PI.SS OFF ya wee stalker!

Just cause your a mod it dont mean your opinion is respected..although i do i feel at times you chat for effect..or popularity!

Yeh, I can stay out of a discussion when it suits me well, not at your will!

And the topic we were talking of now is Villa, who I've seen much more playing than you have! yet I didn't tell you to shut up!

Stick to footie, Barry!

Sabre being a mod does not mean have your nose in every thread lad!

FFS!

Bamaga man wrote:

As for the first bit: Tell me an English player who's as good as Xabi at what he does? If Xabi was English, England would be knocking on the door at every major tournamant.

Tell me a Spanish player who is as good as Gerrard at what he does ?

WHats the point in this ?

I dont think thats quite true, England are in need of a Left midfielder (have been for years) also a right midfielder, so that Gerrard can occupy the central area. With a player like Xabi Alonso, defensively England dont have the problems its attacking and width wise.

Enough of England though back to the Pool.

LFC #1 wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

As for the first bit: Tell me an English player who's as good as Xabi at what he does? If Xabi was English, England would be knocking on the door at every major tournamant.

Tell me a Spanish player who is as good as Gerrard at what he does ?

WHats the point in this ?

I dont think thats quite true, England are in need of a Left midfielder (have been for years) also a right midfielder, so that Gerrard can occupy the central area. With a player like Xabi Alonso, defensively England dont have the problems its attacking and width wise.

Enough of England though back to the Pool.

It was in response to Barry's statement "What have LFC had from Spain that they cannot get in England....NOTHING!".

Thought it was a pretty simple example to grasp.

You're right about England, but that is not their only problem. The balance of the central midfield has been terrible for years (ever since Scholes left incidentally). Gerrard and Lampard can't play together and average replacements like Carrick and Jenas haven't been good enough.

Bamaga man wrote:

As for the first bit: Tell me an English player who's as good as Xabi at what he does? If Xabi was English, England would be knocking on the door at every major tournamant.

Tell me a Spanish player who is as good as Gerrard at what he does ?

WHats the point in this ?

I dont think thats quite true, England are in need of a Left midfielder (have been for years) also a right midfielder, so that Gerrard can occupy the central area. With a player like Xabi Alonso, defensively England dont have the problems its attacking and width wise.

Enough of England though back to the Pool.

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:Ashton's an improvement on Crouch and better than anything we have at the moment. He's easily good enough to be the second best striker at a top team.

Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch are only good enough to be 3rd and 4th choice players.

Sorry mate but I'm still not convinced he is an improvement on Crouch.  But, let's say, for the sake of argument, that he is an improvement on Crouch.  I'd still think it would be madness to swap Crouch for Ashton this summer.  For the mild (my assessment) improvement you'd get in some departments with Ashton, you'd ultimately lose a fair bit.  For one, Crouch has bedded into the team and is producing for us.  There is absolutely no guarantee that Ashton would come into the side and settle.  In addition, Crouch worries the bejesus out of plenty of defenders--hell, even Mourinho and Wenger have admitted as much--which is an X-factor that works to our advantage.  Then, there's Ashton's recent injuries to consider...something that's not an issue with Crouch.

I'm not saying Ashton's not a decent player but he's not--pardon the pun--head and shoulders above Crouch and swapping like for like is just plain silly.

No, what we need up front is the likes of a Villa or Eto'o or RVN.  Someone a cut above the Ashtons and Crouchs of the league.

Bob he's a different class of player mate. Completely different class.

Crouch is decent, good at something, Ashton's better at them. Its as simple as that. Ashtons also a better finisher, striker of a ball, header of a ball and a hell of a lot stronger.

Like av said a million times mate, watch the FA Cup final. Watch what Crouch does against Ferdinand and Gabbidon, Watch what Ashton does against Hyypia and Carragher... Hyypia and Carragher are simply different class to West Ham's centre halfs, and don't put the he had a good game arguement across. Having a good game doesn't make you stronger, doesn't make you quicker, doesn't make you general play, vision and quality better. Anyone can have a good game, when a good player who shows ability has a good game, you get a performance like Ashtons. Go and by the video mate and just watch it, watch the pass and the control and the technique for the for goal, watch how he split open the defence, then watch his movement...

For his goal, he was quicker to react than Carragher mate, says it all to me. Carragher's never second to anything like that. He was then... but it was a poachers goal...

There was an incident on the edge of the area, where he picked it up, skinned two players an cracked a shot from 19 yards or so that went millimeters wide, showing skill and quality. Crouch was just god awful and shown nothing. If you watched Heskey when he played , he was strong and still held players off... As does Rooney, ability doesn't leave you and it doesn't just come to you either depending on form.

Having a good game doesn't allow you do those things. Crouch is not consistent enough. The reason he's not consistent is because he doesn't have a high enough level of ability. That goal against Arsenal, the first one, it was decent anticipation, but watch Toure, he was simply switched off... Crouch wouldn't have got there had Toure been on his game, Fowler would have been there alot earlier... its about judging players ability, something Rafa so far has failed to do and everyone that backs him up can't understand why we are were we are. Its that simple.

We are where we are because we aren't as good as people say.

As I said mate, you wanna compare Ashton and Crouch watch the cup final. Simple as that, go and watch it and watch there movements and ability... compare how Ashton holds off a player like Sami, to how Crouch completely fails against Anton Ferdinand... Ashton's even more mobile than Crouch, that doesn't say much...

Stu, my friend, you cannot have it both ways.  Ashton had a very good FA Cup against us, to be sure, and Crouch didn't.  But, Crouch scored a sublime hattrick against Arsenal the other week--one that I'm not holding my breath on Ashton matching or surpassing.  Now, for the first example you chalk it up to Ashton's quality alone while, for the second, it's down to Toure's mistake.  But, I know, mate, that Toure and Galas are defenders you rate highly and Crouch took the p!ss out of them all afternoon (not just for one goal).  For me, that's skill worth holding onto and nurturing...not something that's to be discarded just to bring in a similar player who may or may not be modestly more adept.  I'm not saying Ashton doesn't have quality but he just doesn't offer that much more than our current strikers.  You've said it yourself--we really need to get top class players in this summer in order to challenge for the title.  So, if Rafa splashes out on Dean Ashton rather than on the likes of Eto'o, Tevez or Villa (yes, Barry, Villa! ) I might just start agreeing with you that he's not up for the job! 

crazyhorse wrote:Dean Ashton. No, No way, Absolutley not, not a chance!

Signing him would be a MASSIVE step backwards. We are a WORLD CLASS CLUB, with WORLD CLASS PLAYERS.

You mean like Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy, Gonzalez and Sissoko?

Stu.Murph wrote:

crazyhorse wrote:Dean Ashton. No, No way, Absolutley not, not a chance!

Signing him would be a MASSIVE step backwards. We are a WORLD CLASS CLUB, with WORLD CLASS PLAYERS.

You mean like Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy, Gonzalez and Sissoko?

Bad Bob wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:Ashton's an improvement on Crouch and better than anything we have at the moment. He's easily good enough to be the second best striker at a top team.

Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch are only good enough to be 3rd and 4th choice players.

Sorry mate but I'm still not convinced he is an improvement on Crouch.  But, let's say, for the sake of argument, that he is an improvement on Crouch.  I'd still think it would be madness to swap Crouch for Ashton this summer.  For the mild (my assessment) improvement you'd get in some departments with Ashton, you'd ultimately lose a fair bit.  For one, Crouch has bedded into the team and is producing for us.  There is absolutely no guarantee that Ashton would come into the side and settle.  In addition, Crouch worries the bejesus out of plenty of defenders--hell, even Mourinho and Wenger have admitted as much--which is an X-factor that works to our advantage.  Then, there's Ashton's recent injuries to consider...something that's not an issue with Crouch.

I'm not saying Ashton's not a decent player but he's not--pardon the pun--head and shoulders above Crouch and swapping like for like is just plain silly.

No, what we need up front is the likes of a Villa or Eto'o or RVN.  Someone a cut above the Ashtons and Crouchs of the league.

Bob he's a different class of player mate. Completely different class.

Crouch is decent, good at something, Ashton's better at them. Its as simple as that. Ashtons also a better finisher, striker of a ball, header of a ball and a hell of a lot stronger.

Like av said a million times mate, watch the FA Cup final. Watch what Crouch does against Ferdinand and Gabbidon, Watch what Ashton does against Hyypia and Carragher... Hyypia and Carragher are simply different class to West Ham's centre halfs, and don't put the he had a good game arguement across. Having a good game doesn't make you stronger, doesn't make you quicker, doesn't make you general play, vision and quality better. Anyone can have a good game, when a good player who shows ability has a good game, you get a performance like Ashtons. Go and by the video mate and just watch it, watch the pass and the control and the technique for the for goal, watch how he split open the defence, then watch his movement...

For his goal, he was quicker to react than Carragher mate, says it all to me. Carragher's never second to anything like that. He was then... but it was a poachers goal...

There was an incident on the edge of the area, where he picked it up, skinned two players an cracked a shot from 19 yards or so that went millimeters wide, showing skill and quality. Crouch was just god awful and shown nothing. If you watched Heskey when he played , he was strong and still held players off... As does Rooney, ability doesn't leave you and it doesn't just come to you either depending on form.

Having a good game doesn't allow you do those things. Crouch is not consistent enough. The reason he's not consistent is because he doesn't have a high enough level of ability. That goal against Arsenal, the first one, it was decent anticipation, but watch Toure, he was simply switched off... Crouch wouldn't have got there had Toure been on his game, Fowler would have been there alot earlier... its about judging players ability, something Rafa so far has failed to do and everyone that backs him up can't understand why we are were we are. Its that simple.

We are where we are because we aren't as good as people say.

As I said mate, you wanna compare Ashton and Crouch watch the cup final. Simple as that, go and watch it and watch there movements and ability... compare how Ashton holds off a player like Sami, to how Crouch completely fails against Anton Ferdinand... Ashton's even more mobile than Crouch, that doesn't say much...

Stu, my friend, you cannot have it both ways.  Ashton had a very good FA Cup against us, to be sure, and Crouch didn't.  But, Crouch scored a sublime hattrick against Arsenal the other week--one that I'm not holding my breath on Ashton matching or surpassing.  Now, for the first example you chalk it up to Ashton's quality alone while, for the second, it's down to Toure's mistake.  But, I know, mate, that Toure and Galas are defenders you rate highly and Crouch took the p!ss out of them all afternoon (not just for one goal).  For me, that's skill worth holding onto and nurturing...not something that's to be discarded just to bring in a similar player who may or may not be modestly more adept.  I'm not saying Ashton doesn't have quality but he just doesn't offer that much more than our current strikers.  You've said it yourself--we really need to get top class players in this summer in order to challenge for the title.  So, if Rafa splashes out on Dean Ashton rather than on the likes of Eto'o, Tevez or Villa (yes, Barry, Villa! ) I might just start agreeing with you that he's not up for the job! 

Bob, Crouch has had one good game against a top side mate since he's signed. Usually he's marked out of games and usually he's very very poor. Toure and Gallas were simply awful mate. Thats the be all and end all of it. Both are exceptional defenders and show exactly how good they are the previous times Crouch played against them when he simply couldn't perform due to them dominating him, snatching the ball after his first touch, pushing him around, just as Terry, Carvalho, Ferdinand and just about all the other quality centre halfs do when they play against him.

Crouch's hatrick was sublime, I've said it a million times mate, but how many times does that header happen? Twice a season? How many simple headers does he up? How many simple chances does he miss? How many times does he make the wrong decision? The answers simple mate, to many. Its about ability and doing something once a season doesn't mean you have exceptional ability at it. Crouch doesn't attack a ball mate, the same way Bellamy and Kuyt are in the air but both scored headers (against Reading and Barcelona), that doesn't mean they are great in the air.

Other factors are involved mate. Its like with Fowler, people say he was a better finisher than Owen because he was a better goalscorer... He was nowhere near a better finisher than Owen... He had a better long shot, was better in the air and was a better "alround goalscorer", but one on one with a keeper, Owen was different class and alot less wasteful. Fowler was better at getting chances... and scoring goals... so people say he's a better finisher.

that last goal Crouch scored, an on form Toure mate and Crouch doesn't get the first touch, simple as that. Infact, an on form Agger mate and Crouch doesn't get that first touch. Its that simple. Footballs a game of circumstance, Crouch made the most of it that day and used all his ability.

Bob, quite simply mate, the difference in class is immense. Its not a small difference, its a massive one. You're comparing one of the most complete alround centre forwards in english football since Alan Shearer to player who's a decent premier league player.

Bob ability makes players mate. Thats what a good player is.

Strong, aware, can pass, can spot the pass, can link up, can head, can read the flight of the ball, can attack the ball, can jump, can use his strengths to his advantage, can finish and can play with his back to goal.

I've seen Ashton first hand mate, and seen plenty of Crewe... and a lad who jump up for a goal kick chest it down, cruyff turn then smack it in the top corner form 25 yards on his weaker foot is no mug.

Crouch does some good things mate, he's more unprecitable than Ashton, but he's nowhere near as strong, as good at heading a ball, he's not got Ashton's technique, he's not as powerful, he's not as good at winning headers, he's not as intelligent, not as clinical, nowhere near as good with his back to goal and nowhere near as good at bringing others into play in good positions on the pitch. He also can't spot the forward pass aswell as Ashton, doesn't take his chances as clinically and isn't as mobile. He also quite simply scores a hell of a lot more goals.

Ashton is very similar to Shearer was at 31/32 years of age. Very similar. He lacks Shearer's leadership and aggression, but just about everything else is there, he's stronger and bigger than Alan aswell.

Crouch works harder, is moer unpredictable and less selfish, thats all mate. Simple as that and its the rose tinted specs and the inability to see Crouch's true level that leaves you frustrated with the "why can't he do what he done against Arsenal all the time" attitude and not frustrated with the manager who signed him and "can't get the best out of him" which I can assure you, he's done all he can and more.

Its about consistency mate, Ashton consistently holds off every defender, weather its Terry, Hyypia Toure, Gallas... Crouch will occassionally do it. Crouch will quite often go missing against the lesser sides and even against Anton Ferdinand at times struggles, Ashton doesn't stuggle to hold of the likes of Terry etc consistently.

If you listen to both Alan Hansen and Andy Grey, both of them say how much West Ham have missed him, a player thats played 11 league games for them mate and two people who really do know the game are saying West Ham miss him... Says it all.

At the end of the day mate, just watch the lad, he can control the ball in the middle of the pitch with a defender on his back and pick the right pass rather than a pass...

His intelligence with the ball is very similar to that of Dirk Kuyt aswell. But he's got a better touch and pass on him. He's also a better player than Kuyt will ever be mate, again, by quite a distance.

My points simple, if West Ham go, why not get Ashton and Tevez in?

Call it £14m for Tevez and £7m for Ashton.

You'd probably get 15m for Crouch and Kuyt... so for £6m you're improving the team and the squad. That would still leave you with a bucket full for a centre half and another top top striker like David Villa or someone...