Liverpool FC Forum

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:53 pm

Ashton's an improvement on Crouch and better than anything we have at the moment. He's easily good enough to be the second best striker at a top team.

Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch are only good enough to be 3rd and 4th choice players.

by **Sabre** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:24 pm

There are so many things to comment, that I don't know what to pick, I'll pick a random one

Fowler, Morientes, Kewell, Hyypia and Luis Garcia were massive reasons towards the end of last season we were as good as we were.

Every replacement this season have doesn't have their ability and quality with maybe the exception of Crouch/Bellamy/Kuyt over Morientes, who for me, was very harshly treated, even though he under performed.

Morientes is better inside the box than Kuyt, but Rafa wants both Morientes and Kuyt out the box often, and for that Kuyt is more complete. Kuyt will score much more goals next season, the movement done in a Ball put by Sissoko was good, yes he didn't finnish it well with his left foot and Gerrard didn't reach (I think it was a shot) but somehow I feel he'll bang a lot more goals next season, he has the quality to do that.

About Crouch, I think you underrate how useful he is. When asked about Crouch in a Spanish radio recently, Rafa giggled and said he was a bargain for any coach, his positional play is strong and gives second chances for our players. Not to mention now he's scoring.

I'm not saying we do not have to sign a better player than the two above, I'm saying that Bellamy should leave this club before we even consider getting rid of one of the above.

About Fowler, I think he's a goal poacher, but Rafa doesn't seem to need one often. IMHO he should have played more, but I don't think his minutes would increase if he stayed so it's best for him to go, regrettably.

In a nutshell, Don't touch Kuyt and Crouch

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:33 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:Ashton's an improvement on Crouch and better than anything we have at the moment. He's easily good enough to be the second best striker at a top team.

Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch are only good enough to be 3rd and 4th choice players.

Sorry mate but I'm still not convinced he is an improvement on Crouch. But, let's say, for the sake of argument, that he is an improvement on Crouch. I'd still think it would be madness to swap Crouch for Ashton this summer. For the mild (my assessment) improvement you'd get in some departments with Ashton, you'd ultimately lose a fair bit. For one, Crouch has bedded into the team and is producing for us. There is absolutely no guarantee that Ashton would come into the side and settle. In addition, Crouch worries the bejesus out of plenty of defenders--hell, even Mourinho and Wenger have admitted as much--which is an X-factor that works to our advantage. Then, there's Ashton's recent injuries to consider...something that's not an issue with Crouch.

I'm not saying Ashton's not a decent player but he's not--pardon the pun--head and shoulders above Crouch and swapping like for like is just plain silly.

No, what we need up front is the likes of a Villa or Eto'o or RVN. Someone a cut above the Ashtons and Crouchs of the league.

by **wrighty (not mark!)** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:36 pm

Bad Bob wrote:but he's not--pardon the pun--head and shoulders above Crouch

Hahahaha, that cracked me up! Sorry but it's been a slow day i'm still in work til 9!

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:21 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:Ashton's an improvement on Crouch and better than anything we have at the moment. He's easily good enough to be the second best striker at a top team.

Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch are only good enough to be 3rd and 4th choice players.

Sorry mate but I'm still not convinced he is an improvement on Crouch. But, let's say, for the sake of argument, that he is an improvement on Crouch. I'd still think it would be madness to swap Crouch for Ashton this summer. For the mild (my assessment) improvement you'd get in some departments with Ashton, you'd ultimately lose a fair bit. For one, Crouch has bedded into the team and is producing for us. There is absolutely no guarantee that Ashton would come into the side and settle. In addition, Crouch worries the bejesus out of plenty of defenders--hell, even Mourinho and Wenger have admitted as much--which is an X-factor that works to our advantage. Then, there's Ashton's recent injuries to consider...something that's not an issue with Crouch.

I'm not saying Ashton's not a decent player but he's not--pardon the pun--head and shoulders above Crouch and swapping like for like is just plain silly.

No, what we need up front is the likes of a Villa or Eto'o or RVN. Someone a cut above the Ashtons and Crouchs of the league.

Bob he's a different class of player mate. Completely different class.

Crouch is decent, good at something, Ashton's better at them. Its as simple as that. Ashtons also a better finisher, striker of a ball, header of a ball and a hell of a lot stronger.

Like av said a million times mate, watch the FA Cup final. Watch what Crouch does against Ferdinand and Gabbidon, Watch what Ashton does against Hyypia and Carragher... Hyypia and Carragher are simply different class to West Ham's centre halfs, and don't put the he had a good game arguement across. Having a good game doesn't make you stronger, doesn't make you quicker, doesn't make you general play, vision and quality better. Anyone can have a good game, when a good player who shows ability has a good game, you get a performance like Ashtons. Go and by the video mate and just watch it, watch the pass and the control and the technique for the for goal, watch how he split open the defence, then watch his movement...

For his goal, he was quicker to react than Carragher mate, says it all to me. Carragher's never second to anything like that. He was then... but it was a poachers goal...

There was an incident on the edge of the area, where he picked it up, skinned two players an cracked a shot from 19 yards or so that went millimeters wide, showing skill and quality. Crouch was just god awful and shown nothing. If you watched Heskey when he played :censored:

, he was strong and still held players off... As does Rooney, ability doesn't leave you and it doesn't just come to you either depending on form.

Having a good game doesn't allow you do those things. Crouch is not consistent enough. The reason he's not consistent is because he doesn't have a high enough level of ability. That goal against Arsenal, the first one, it was decent anticipation, but watch Toure, he was simply switched off... Crouch wouldn't have got there had Toure been on his game, Fowler would have been there alot earlier... its about judging players ability, something Rafa so far has failed to do and everyone that backs him up can't understand why we are were we are. Its that simple.

We are where we are because we aren't as good as people say.

As I said mate, you wanna compare Ashton and Crouch watch the cup final. Simple as that, go and watch it and watch there movements and ability... compare how Ashton holds off a player like Sami, to how Crouch completely fails against Anton Ferdinand... Ashton's even more mobile than Crouch, that doesn't say much...

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:22 pm

To be quite honest with ya if it was me I'd let Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch go and go hell for leather for Ashton, Tevez and someone line Villa.

by **66-1120597113** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:32 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:To be quite honest with ya if it was me I'd let Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch go and go hell for leather for Ashton, Tevez and someone line Villa.

Do you think Villa could withstand the more physical defenders in England Stu?

Would he be strong enough?
Morientes is great in Spain,in England he struggled and suffered lack of confidence because he got a bit of a kicking.
If Villa got a booting every time,would he be tough enough to take it and classy enough to show his ability?

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:37 pm

Morientes suffered a lack of confidence due to not knowing the role Rafa wanted him to form, a lack of goals which came from a lack of width and the lack of a strike partner who helped him perform until Fowler arrived.

Villa is good enough. As was Morientes, used correctly. He's not a battering ram which is how Benitez tried to use him.

Its got :censored:

all to do with not handling English defences otherwise when he came up against English defences in europe the same would apply... but it doesn't.

by **66-1120597113** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:46 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:Morientes suffered a lack of confidence due to not knowing the role Rafa wanted him to form, a lack of goals which came from a lack of width and the lack of a strike partner who helped him perform until Fowler arrived.

Villa is good enough. As was Morientes, used correctly. He's not a battering ram which is how Benitez tried to use him.

Its got all to do with not handling English defences otherwise when he came up against English defences in europe the same would apply... but it doesn't.

Dont curse at me young man!

I just struggle to think of a Spanish forward that made it in England...not that it matters anyway..in fact how many have came to try?

Villa is a great player in Spain and good in the C/L but week in week out against very physical defences i just think he'd lack it a bit and go amiss!

A bit timid me thinks from what i have seen!
Stu we will never know what he can do in England until we see him here..you think he could cut it..i dont!

Deffo not in the first season,it will be a culture shock and one with very very sore legs!

by **Stu.Murph** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:03 am

BarryBelfast wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:Morientes suffered a lack of confidence due to not knowing the role Rafa wanted him to form, a lack of goals which came from a lack of width and the lack of a strike partner who helped him perform until Fowler arrived.

Villa is good enough. As was Morientes, used correctly. He's not a battering ram which is how Benitez tried to use him.

Its got all to do with not handling English defences otherwise when he came up against English defences in europe the same would apply... but it doesn't.

Dont curse at me young man!

I just struggle to think of a Spanish forward that made it in England...not that it matters anyway..in fact how many have came to try?

Villa is a great player in Spain and good in the C/L but week in week out against very physical defences i just think he'd lack it a bit and go amiss!

A bit timid me thinks from what i have seen!
Stu we will never know what he can do in England until we see him here..you think he could cut it..i dont!

Deffo not in the first season,it will be a culture shock and one with very very sore legs!

Barry, control, passing shooting... blah blah blah...

It doesn't change when you move a league. You're either good enough, or you aren't. End of.

by **66-1120597113** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:13 am

Stu.Murph wrote:
BarryBelfast wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:Morientes suffered a lack of confidence due to not knowing the role Rafa wanted him to form, a lack of goals which came from a lack of width and the lack of a strike partner who helped him perform until Fowler arrived.

Villa is good enough. As was Morientes, used correctly. He's not a battering ram which is how Benitez tried to use him.

Its got all to do with not handling English defences otherwise when he came up against English defences in europe the same would apply... but it doesn't.

Dont curse at me young man!

I just struggle to think of a Spanish forward that made it in England...not that it matters anyway..in fact how many have came to try?

Villa is a great player in Spain and good in the C/L but week in week out against very physical defences i just think he'd lack it a bit and go amiss!

A bit timid me thinks from what i have seen!
Stu we will never know what he can do in England until we see him here..you think he could cut it..i dont!

Deffo not in the first season,it will be a culture shock and one with very very sore legs!

Barry, control, passing shooting... blah blah blah...

It doesn't change when you move a league. You're either good enough, or you aren't. End of.

Bullshi't Stuart!

Villa HAS NOT been tested enough to ignorantly pressume he will be a success in England........It will take him at least a season to deal with the culture shock,hard defenders and more physical type of game!

Signing him will be a mistake!

We need a striker that could/can play in england from the off!

Can you think of anyone..(not Aston)
:idea

by **Scottbot** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:14 am

BarryBelfast wrote:Villa is a great player in Spain and good in the C/L but week in week out against very physical defences i just think he'd lack it a bit and go amiss!

A bit timid me thinks from what i have seen!
Stu we will never know what he can do in England until we see him here..you think he could cut it..i dont!

I think Villa would do well in England. Stocky build, low centre of gravity, reasonably quick and a slighlty bullish style of play. He looks to have more of the traditional English attributes compared to your typical Spanish centre-forward. given the choice i think i would still prefer E'to although only just.

by **Sabre** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:20 am

I think Villa would do well in England. Stocky build, low centre of gravity, reasonably quick and a slighlty bullish style of play. He looks to have more of the traditional English attributes compared to your typical Spanish centre-forward.

Astonishingly accurate description there Scottbot, I'd put him that way if I had the english language resources for that.

All that is true, but he's one of those strikers obsessed with the goal, when he gets the ball he knows what to do with it, he'll go straight to the goal, unlike pseudo strikers like Baros who will go to a wing because they do not what to do.

Great player IMO. Barry, to be honest I think the adaptation thingy is a matter of luck or lottery, Reina, Arbeloa and Alonso didn't have particular difficulties nor too big cultural shocks!

Who would you propose Barry?

by **Stu.Murph** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:23 am

Probably Berbatov... :laugh:

by **66-1120597113** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:24 am

Stu.Murph wrote:Morientes suffered a lack of confidence due to not knowing the role Rafa wanted him to form, a lack of goals which came from a lack of width and the lack of a strike partner who helped him perform until Fowler arrived.

Villa is good enough. As was Morientes, used correctly. He's not a battering ram which is how Benitez tried to use him.

Its got all to do with not handling English defences otherwise when he came up against English defences in europe the same would apply... but it doesn't.

Stu said all that earlier Sabre Annan! :laugh:

Liverpool FC Forum

Jekyll & hyde

Who is online