Liverpool FC Forum

by **Jedi** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:14 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:There are players out there who will wrongly never play for big teams and clubs. Bullard, Taylor, Ashton, Nugent. All excellent and pure footballers but people aren't willing to take a "chance" on them. Meaning they completely fail to recognise there ability. FFS Chimbonda was in Wigan's team against for me the only right back in the league who's as good as Gary Neville.

Thats pathetic how can WORLD CLASS managers not "recognise their ability" ? Its laughable to suggest that in itself. Do you think Rafa, Fergie, Arsene and Jose won't buy these players because they don't want to take a chance? Ronaldo was a chance, Robben was a chance, these players are simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Nugent is good at the moment but he's flavour of the month. Has he done anything to suggest he can be a top, top player?

Bullard - one good season and he got the plaudits in the press, been injured since and to be honest all he originally do was try hard.

Taylor - Newcastle United centre back? Seriously? Next.

Ashton - OMFG!! One good half season and he's the best thing since slice bread. I watched this lad from his early days at Crewe and although he is talented, he is not a patch on any top 4 striker in the Premiership today!

Its seems you have fallen for the old media gobably-gook and are hanging on their every word. Bullard - gets a good rating in the paper, you thinks hes the dogs nutz.

Seriously ask yourself what would happen if you put these players on the world stage or at a big club, they would get found out. I know your trying to be different and look astute but your following the media moguls like Reade in the mirror and Wooly in the star, you read an article and are amazed by the journalism and they have you believing its a great idea.

Look at football from a sensible point of view, you might not realise it now but when you get a bit closer to my age, you'll realise how much plop you have been sprouting and think

"I should of listened to Jedi".

by **Stu.Murph** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:19 pm

Taxi for Jedi...

by **Jedi** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:22 pm

Stu.Murph wrote::laugh:

Taxi for Jedi...

Thanks but I'll walk - I'm not that old yet!

Just nice to educate the ill .

by **Stu.Murph** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:24 pm

Jedi wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote::laugh:

Taxi for Jedi...

Thanks but I'll walk - I'm not that old yet!

Just nice to educate the ill informed.

So who's that then?

Just out of curiousity... Do you rate Sissoko etc on a "world stage" and Crouch? And Finnan?

by **Jedi** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:31 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
Jedi wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote::laugh:

Taxi for Jedi...

Thanks but I'll walk - I'm not that old yet!

Just nice to educate the ill informed.

So who's that then?

Just out of curiousity... Do you rate Sissoko etc on a "world stage" and Crouch? And Finnan?

Stu the red I seem to think you are taking the mickey out of me with no viable means of substance to back you up.

Do I rate Sissoko, Crouch and Finnan? Of course I do they play for us and have done a good job.

Steve Finnan is a perfect proffessional in my eyes. He trains hard, works hard and is a team player. He not over-awed by any occasion and has decent footballing skills. He can pass and cross with both feet and is techically a good footballer. He would fit perfectly into any team. my only minor concern is his attacking instinct - he hardly ever shows it. He's a lot better than Steven Taylor :laugh:

Sissoko - Ball winner, great tackler/ heckler - :censored:

with the ball. Should just look to pass it straight away. Never going to unlock defences with a through ball but can do the job he is mean to on a world stage - however theres a lot better out there.

Crouch - Wasn't a fan of Peter coming here and am looking to see him move on in the summer. Without sounding too cliche, he's got a great touch for a big man but his heading is woefu. Better than Ashton - definitely!!

by **Stu.Murph** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:56 pm

You rate Sissoko on a world stage... A player that, in one game against Aston Villa let the ball run under his foot 3 times. Not once, three times. On a premier league football pitch and gave the ball away with near enough every pass? A player who against Reading looked absoloutely clueless in possession and I'd be suprised if he found a red shirt with 60% of his passes.

You then mention Steven Taylor who is actually a centre half and not a bad one at that... However, I wasn't on about Steven Taylor however, I was on about Ryan Taylor who plays for Wigan, signed from Tranmere as a right back.

You then say Crouch is better than Ashton... At what? What aspect of his game is better than Ashton's as an individual?

You are clearly one of the uneducated lot on here who's never seen a good player, played with a good player learnt to understand the game and there is alot more to football than the top four sides in the country.

Players outside the top four are very often good enough to play for sides within the top four and certain players have alot more ability. Just because they don't have a name or big coverage doesn't mean they aren't a good player and doesn't mean they don't have that ability.

Also, don't give me the "professionals" always know best arguement. It doesn't wash, hence the reason we end up with players like Gonzalez, Nunez, Morientes, Pellegrino amoungst others. I refuse to be drawn into an arguement with a crystal clear wind up. End of discussion.

by **stmichael** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:57 pm

Good posts by Stu the Red and Bigmick earlier in this thread.

Stu made the rightful assessment that we were a better side last season than we are this and I agree with him. The results back this up. I'm asking why, when the squad played consistently well last season, it's unreasonable to expect the same this season.

I think some people get "haven't" mixed up with "can't". The fact that the squad hasn't done it this season is not evidence that they can't. Using the same logic, you could say that this season proves that Wayne Rooney and Thierry Henry aren't capable of playing consistently well all season. That's clearly not true.

Last season provides clear evidence to me that this group of players can mount a serious title challenge. The core of the squad is the same, and the new signings for me are as good as or better than the players they've replaced. (Pennant was an addition to the squad, not a replacement for anyone, and I've said many times that he shouldn't have played as many games as he did at the start of the season.) I've been asking all season for a convincing argument why people think last season's league performance was a one-off that can't be repeated with the squad of players that we have now, and I'm still waiting for one.

If I didn't have the evidence of last season to call upon I'd agree with you that the squad isn't good enough, but that evidence is there and to me it's indisputable. I'm not saying we don't need to strengthen the squad in the summer, but if we want to win the league Rafa has to get the best out of whatever players he has.

The players in the past few weeks have showed what they're capable of, against some decent sides. They've done it in big games against Barcelona, Arsenal and PSV. I'm entitled to ask why Rafa can't get that sort of performance out of them more often, especially when virtually the same group of players took 72 points from 30 games last season. I'm not having it that Cisse and Morientes were better than Bellamy and Kuyt, or that Kewell was that crucial to our success. Yes he had the odd exceptional game but he wan't great by any means.

A majority of this forum have shied away from it though, using the 'not enough quality' argument as cover. The majority of criticisms of Rafa have been based on his transfer choices last summer, and have in most cases been followed immediately by the disclaimer that he hasn't had the money to spend that he would have liked.

In the early part of the season there was a healthy discussion on here about tactics, selection and basic team play being responsible for our poor form. Since late last year that discussion has all but dried up, to be replaced by an almost unanimous verdict that the squad isn't good enough. Ironically, and unfathomably, this development occurred around the same time that we actually started to win consistently in the league. During that time, when I've tried to suggest other factors as alternative explanations for the problems we've had, I've been accused of being in denial and clutching at straws.

There are 38 games in a Premiership season. In 32 of them we will face teams who are markedly inferior to us. Even with the players we've got we should be looking to take a minimum of 80 points from those 32 games. We have had the quality to win the league this season, and to suggest otherwise is to let Rafa off the hook in my opinion.

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:45 am

I disagree. I think Rafa's got what he could out of the team this season and the squad barring a few games... but the fact remains is he's had money and time to bring in his own players to get the job done and he hasn't brought players in anywhere near the required standard.

Kuyt wasn't an improvement on Crouch/Fowler. Bellamy hasn't made the impact alot of people predicted. Pennant has shown flashes but not consistency (same with Aurelio) and Kewell's been missing and we've not had anyone good enough to replace him. We also have Agger in place of Sami who for me isn't as good a player.

Last season the balance in defence and attack was also far greater, this season its all about defence, or so it seems.

I'm sorry stmicheal, but the team at the end of last season was on a completely different level to the one this season... I for one haven't noticed a great change in tactical player either.

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:55 am

The players not being consistent enough is a good argument, definitely better than the argument that they’re not good enough.

My problem with that though is that it's not something that's fixed and innate to players and that the manager can't influence, in the way that players' level of ability is. It's down to the manager to get the best out of his players via the right coaching, selection and tactics, and turn them into 7, 8 or 9 games in 10 players.

Take Crouch for example. The guy has exceeded most people's expectations. That aside though, I take your point about his finishing earlier in the season being poor, but that's not something that we or Rafa have to just accept and live with. I said after the defeat at Blackburn that he could be coached to be more aggressive in front of goal, and I still believe that. Maybe that was behind his performance against Arsenal, I don't know, but that ability is clearly there so it's up to Rafa to extract it more often. Also the formation played to his strengths, as well as Gerrard's and those of the wingers. If we'd done that more often this season you'd have seen a lot more match-winning performances from Crouch.

Sorry to keep banging on about last season, but 72 points from 30 games, and sequences of 10 and 9 wins in succession, tells me we have got a squad of players as a whole who can play consistently well together over the course of a season. The players we've lost from last season can hardly be said to be models of consistency in themselves – Cisse, Morientes, Traore, Warnock and Kromkamp, plus Garcia and Kewell who've been injured. Only Didi fits that description. Just as important as the individual players is how they fit together on the pitch.

Last season the whole was more than the sum of its parts, this season it's been less. Both have been primarily down to the manager.

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:31 am

stmichael wrote:The players not being consistent enough is a good argument, definitely better than the argument that they’re not good enough.

My problem with that though is that it's not something that's fixed and innate to players and that the manager can't influence, in the way that players' level of ability is. It's down to the manager to get the best out of his players via the right coaching, selection and tactics, and turn them into 7, 8 or 9 games in 10 players.

Take Crouch for example. The guy has exceeded most people's expectations. That aside though, I take your point about his finishing earlier in the season being poor, but that's not something that we or Rafa have to just accept and live with. I said after the defeat at Blackburn that he could be coached to be more aggressive in front of goal, and I still believe that. Maybe that was behind his performance against Arsenal, I don't know, but that ability is clearly there so it's up to Rafa to extract it more often. Also the formation played to his strengths, as well as Gerrard's and those of the wingers. If we'd done that more often this season you'd have seen a lot more match-winning performances from Crouch.

Sorry to keep banging on about last season, but 72 points from 30 games, and sequences of 10 and 9 wins in succession, tells me we have got a squad of players as a whole who can play consistently well together over the course of a season. The players we've lost from last season can hardly be said to be models of consistency in themselves – Cisse, Morientes, Traore, Warnock and Kromkamp, plus Garcia and Kewell who've been injured. Only Didi fits that description. Just as important as the individual players is how they fit together on the pitch.

Last season the whole was more than the sum of its parts, this season it's been less. Both have been primarily down to the manager.

Fowler, Morientes, Kewell, Hyypia and Luis Garcia were massive reasons towards the end of last season we were as good as we were.

Every replacement this season have doesn't have their ability and quality with maybe the exception of Crouch/Bellamy/Kuyt over Morientes, who for me, was very harshly treated, even though he under performed.

Agger over Hyypia isn't an improvement. Gonzalez or Aurelio over Kewell isn't an improvement. Not having Luis Garcia available has been a hinderance, Fowler not playing and Crouch not playing as regularly has upset the apple cart.

The balance and the quality isn't being used and quite frankly with the players who've played this season haven't the required quality to take us where all our "fans" think we should be. Hence the reason the blues say kopites are :censored:

, its embarrassing listening to some Liverpool "supporters" vision of how good our team is.

We're were we are for a reason. No excuses. Players like Kuyt, Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko, Finnan, Agger aren't going to win us the league. Its ok to have a couple of those players in there, but not all of them and its cost us big time this season.

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:00 am

dawson99 wrote:Spew, your problem, and this is the last i will say on the subject, is you have no soul. Football i will say again is about much more than whats on paper. You will never understand that, and u r boring. Carra is a better defender than rio and terry if u ask me. finann is abetter right back. Scholes is no better in the centre of midfield. hes too slow, he cant tackle, his passing is geetting eratic. Robben has no desire for the game.

these are things u will never understanmd, which is why u never made it as a player or a coach.

From the actim index...

Paul Scholes
1,703 passes...
91.1% completed...

You know what you're talkin about... :laugh:

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:37 am

Jedi wrote:Look at football from a sensible point of view, you might not realise it now but when you get a bit closer to my age, you'll realise how much plop you have been sprouting and think
"I should of listened to Jedi".

Definately the best thread for a while and it also includes the funniest put-down for some time. Fair play to Jedi, even Stu had to smile at that one.

As for the many football points.

Crouch or Ashton? To be fair to Stu he was on about Ashton long before he signed for West Ham, so you've gotta say it was a good spot. That said, I prefer Crouch and wouldn't swap him. Is he better in the air? stronger? a better finisher? Maybe not, but I think he kills it quicker, is much cuter, more mobile and links it up better. All of this of course is debateable (extremely debateable according to Stu or in fact, no debate I'm talking total sh!te END OF) but one factor is absolutely beyond dispute. It's the same reason why I didn't shed any tears when we didn't re-sign Owen, the same reason why I'd sell Kewell, players who don't play regularly are no good to you. Freak injuries, trod on a Big Mac walking down the high street etc etc. Footballers must play regularly for me otherwise they ain't no good to you. Some footballers never play regularly for a sustained period, Ashton is in this category IMHO.

I think Agger is a good player, a very good player in fact. Better than Hyppia? Well he's certainly better than Hyppia now, probably not upto Sami when the big man was at his imperious best but better than he has been for the last couple of seasons in my opinion. He'll get better too.

I think the squad and team we are able to pick has improved from last season. In this regard, I agree with St Michael. I don't necessarily say that next season is make or break for Rafa (infact it isn't he's done a brilliant job) but as I've said a thousand times, I'd love us to have a crack at a league campaign without giving everybody else a ten point start in the first few weeks. This ridiculous policy of rotating three or four players every game for the first few months of the season has to stop. Had we not done that again this season, in my opinion we would now be involved, probably as the outsider but involved anyway in a three horse race for the title.

Stu's other picks, Bullard, Nugent, Ryan Taylor? I agree with him to be honest. Some players just don't get a chance taken on them because they don't fit the fashion. I saw Nugent in an under 21's game at the start of the season and he looked a really good player to me. Bullard has always been an extremely tidy footballer for some time but teams won't take a punt on players from unfashionable clubs. Andy Johnson the World and his brother looked at, nobody would take a guess and my feeling is that he's probably proving worth the gamble. In fairness to Rafa, Crouch was hardly been pursued by all and sundry before he bought him for 7 million and regardless of whether he is better or not than Ashton, he'd certainly go for more than that now. The bloke doesn't have to have an exotic sounding name to be a good player, it is possible to play for Oxford and go into the Liverpool team. Ask John Aldridge and Ray Houghton.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:52 pm

The squad as it stands right now is good enough to deal with every team outside the Big Four and, in most cases, to do so with a considerable degree of comfort. On that score, St. Mike is right. Now, being good enough on paper doesn't legislate for dips in form, injuries, loss of focus etc. Clearly, we've underachieved in the league this year relative to last year for a number of complex reasons that were discussed at length earlier in the season. And, while it is down to Rafa to get the best out of these players it can't all be laid at the manager's door (the injuries to Kewell and Garcia, for instance, have shorn us of two vital impact players). Sometimes, a team goes a little flat at the wrong time (like at the beginning of the season, as Big Mick rightly emphasizes) and finds themselves out of the hunt. It doesn't mean we are not a good squad...it just means that we haven't been good enough to challenge this year.

Where I agree with Stu, however, (and, incidentally, with Carragher as well

) is in saying that, we need a higher calibre of player if we are to compete with Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal for the league. It's not that we don't have some quality players...we do. it's that we could use at least 2-3 more and it's that we could most especially use them in the attacking positions--out wide and up top. What we need are a clutch of players that can truly turn a game on its head with a moment of brilliance. Players that can make something out of nothing and can rescue us on dreary days where nothing's going right and we're struggling to break a team down. This is why we're still a step behind Chelsea and Man United: we don't have enough game breakers. Look at the Mancs. If it's not Rooney or Ronaldo or Scholes who are putting teams to the sword, it's Giggs or Saha or Vidic or Ferdinand. At Chelsea you can smother Drogba, Shevchenko, Robben and Lampard and maybe its Cole or Essien or Carvalho or Terry that pops up and beats you. We need that calibre of quality player sprinkled more liberally throughout the squad, both on the pitch and on the bench. We've achieved that depth in central midfield and, personally, I'm happy with our defence because it is good at its primary job--defending--even if it doesn't collectively chip in with enough goals over the course of the season. So, as I said, I think more quality on the flanks and up top and we'll actually be ready to compete for the title rather than simply compete for 3rd/4th each season.

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:28 pm

Bad Bob wrote:The squad as it stands right now is good enough to deal with every team outside the Big Four and, in most cases, to do so with a considerable degree of comfort. On that score, St. Mike is right. Now, being good enough on paper doesn't legislate for dips in form, injuries, loss of focus etc. Clearly, we've underachieved in the league this year relative to last year for a number of complex reasons that were discussed at length earlier in the season. And, while it is down to Rafa to get the best out of these players it can't all be laid at the manager's door (the injuries to Kewell and Garcia, for instance, have shorn us of two vital impact players). Sometimes, a team goes a little flat at the wrong time (like at the beginning of the season, as Big Mick rightly emphasizes) and finds themselves out of the hunt. It doesn't mean we are not a good squad...it just means that we haven't been good enough to challenge this year.

Where I agree with Stu, however, (and, incidentally, with Carragher as well ) is in saying that, we need a higher calibre of player if we are to compete with Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal for the league. It's not that we don't have some quality players...we do. it's that we could use at least 2-3 more and it's that we could most especially use them in the attacking positions--out wide and up top. What we need are a clutch of players that can truly turn a game on its head with a moment of brilliance. Players that can make something out of nothing and can rescue us on dreary days where nothing's going right and we're struggling to break a team down. This is why we're still a step behind Chelsea and Man United: we don't have enough game breakers. Look at the Mancs. If it's not Rooney or Ronaldo or Scholes who are putting teams to the sword, it's Giggs or Saha or Vidic or Ferdinand. At Chelsea you can smother Drogba, Shevchenko, Robben and Lampard and maybe its Cole or Essien or Carvalho or Terry that pops up and beats you. We need that calibre of quality player sprinkled more liberally throughout the squad, both on the pitch and on the bench. We've achieved that depth in central midfield and, personally, I'm happy with our defence because it is good at its primary job--defending--even if it doesn't collectively chip in with enough goals over the course of the season. So, as I said, I think more quality on the flanks and up top and we'll actually be ready to compete for the title rather than simply compete for 3rd/4th each season.

So the be all and end all is we need better players than the ones we have...

Thank you.

Next...

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:44 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:The squad as it stands right now is good enough to deal with every team outside the Big Four and, in most cases, to do so with a considerable degree of comfort. On that score, St. Mike is right. Now, being good enough on paper doesn't legislate for dips in form, injuries, loss of focus etc. Clearly, we've underachieved in the league this year relative to last year for a number of complex reasons that were discussed at length earlier in the season. And, while it is down to Rafa to get the best out of these players it can't all be laid at the manager's door (the injuries to Kewell and Garcia, for instance, have shorn us of two vital impact players). Sometimes, a team goes a little flat at the wrong time (like at the beginning of the season, as Big Mick rightly emphasizes) and finds themselves out of the hunt. It doesn't mean we are not a good squad...it just means that we haven't been good enough to challenge this year.

Where I agree with Stu, however, (and, incidentally, with Carragher as well ) is in saying that, we need a higher calibre of player if we are to compete with Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal for the league. It's not that we don't have some quality players...we do. it's that we could use at least 2-3 more and it's that we could most especially use them in the attacking positions--out wide and up top. What we need are a clutch of players that can truly turn a game on its head with a moment of brilliance. Players that can make something out of nothing and can rescue us on dreary days where nothing's going right and we're struggling to break a team down. This is why we're still a step behind Chelsea and Man United: we don't have enough game breakers. Look at the Mancs. If it's not Rooney or Ronaldo or Scholes who are putting teams to the sword, it's Giggs or Saha or Vidic or Ferdinand. At Chelsea you can smother Drogba, Shevchenko, Robben and Lampard and maybe its Cole or Essien or Carvalho or Terry that pops up and beats you. We need that calibre of quality player sprinkled more liberally throughout the squad, both on the pitch and on the bench. We've achieved that depth in central midfield and, personally, I'm happy with our defence because it is good at its primary job--defending--even if it doesn't collectively chip in with enough goals over the course of the season. So, as I said, I think more quality on the flanks and up top and we'll actually be ready to compete for the title rather than simply compete for 3rd/4th each season.

So the be all and end all is we need better players than the ones we have...

Thank you.

Next...

Yes!

But, by better players, I don't mean Dean Ashton!

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