Liverpool FC Forum

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:53 am

Dirk Kuyt...

For me if it was out of Bellamy and Kuyt I'd choose Bellamy everytime, yet most around seem to want Dirk...

Kuyt is obviously a good footballer. He's got good game intelligence, isn't to bad on the ball, can take a chance usually when it falls to him, and the obvious and most overused phrase surrounding him he works hard. Let me just add, hard work means nothing without talent and vice versa.

Kuyt, while being good technically has a suspect first touch. Its more often than not quite heavy. He's also very overated in the strength department, he often miscontrols a ball and allows a defender to disposes him. His movement outside the box is very good and something I rate, however when it comes to anticipation and reading the flight of a ball I just don't believe he can do this. He's not the sort of striker who will score 20 goals season in this country, he's not quick enough or strong enough, awful in the air regardless of todays goal and isn't enough of a preditor to do that.

Now the problems clear for me. He simply doesn't fit into our style of play what so ever and has replaced a player in the starting line up who in all fairness was in a completely different class to what Dirk will ever be. Dirk MAY be a good player off a front man who can do it all, he's more like an "in the hole player", which unfortunately isn't what we need. He will never be a 20 goal a season player. Now in a team like the old Arsenal where Henry and Pires consistently got to the byline for pull backs and consistently passed there way through sides, he may have been a useful, but the fact is we don't have and probably won't have the players to play that way.

All in he's shown he's a good player for me, but he's also shown that Bellamy, Fowler and Crouch suit our style of play alot more without there being any real improvement in ability on Crouch. I certainly don't think he was worth the £9.5m we paid for him and I also would be upset if he was to leave.

For me should go out this summer and make our intentions clear, Ashton, Tevez and one other pacey striker, Bellamy, Crouch and Kuyt out the door. Bring in Woodgate and also go after a left winger unless Kewell all of a sudden isn't injury prone... which will never happen.

This summer the weakest links MUST be improved with quality players who can and will improve the team. No more squad players... I'm sick of hearing people say someones useful, someone can offer something different, its not about that anymore. Its about better players who can offer the same things, but in a better way aswell as other things.

IE Ashton can do everything Crouch and Kuyt can do but is better in the air and with his back to goal aswell as being physically stronger. He's also more prolific.

Tevez works hard like Kuyt, but has a touch, pace, ability to beat a man and can score goals. He is phyiscally very strong aswell.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:24 am

Stu.Murph wrote:Ashton can do everything Crouch and Kuyt can do but is better in the air and with his back to goal aswell as being physically stronger. He's also more prolific.

Except stay fit Stu. The lads injury record the past two years has been pretty appalling. It's not just the bad injury he is suffering from now, he's been in and out with niggling injuries throughout his time at Norwich and West Ham. I think he's a good player but i wonder if he has managed 30 games of premiership football to date bearing in mind he joined Norwich late in their relgation season?

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:33 am

Scottbot wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:Ashton can do everything Crouch and Kuyt can do but is better in the air and with his back to goal aswell as being physically stronger. He's also more prolific.

Except stay fit Stu. The lads injury record the past two years has been pretty appalling. It's not just the bad injury he is suffering from now, he's been in and out with niggling injuries throughout his time at Norwich and West Ham. I think he's a good player but i wonder if he has managed 30 games of premiership football to date bearing in mind he joined Norwich late in their relgation season?

He played nearly every game for Norwich. He's played alot for West Ham last season. He picked up a freak injury in training mate for England. It happens. Personally, If we got Tevez aswell he wouldn't be first choice either.

That arguement for Woodgate has foundation, but not for Ashton imo.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:43 am

Stu.Murph wrote:He played nearly every game for Norwich. He's played alot for West Ham last season. He picked up a freak injury in training mate for England. It happens. Personally, If we got Tevez aswell he wouldn't be first choice either.

That arguement for Woodgate has foundation, but not for Ashton imo.

It would still be a risk in my book. I rate him as a player but the jury is still out for me. I'd need to see more of him. I know you rate the lad but he can't have more than 20/22 top flight goals to his name and that combined with his struggles to overcome this injury and the fact he would command a stupid price tag would make him a risk in my book. I know there are no guarantees in football but with all this talk of 40mill war chests being bandied about in the media i would prefer to see the money spent on more of sure thing. I'm a fan of the usual suspects (Villa and Et'o) but if they are out of our league i still maintain that Anelka could be the one to take our forward play to the next level. For the wing i'm a big fan of Gamst-Perdersen (a player who will only get better at a top club) and i still like Duff who simply has too much talent to waste away at Newcastle.

by **alxy** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:04 am

With yesterday's goal, he is now our top Premiership goalscorer. So if that's being poor, then I wouldn't mind that. I don't think he is a natural goal poacher like Robbie or Michael was, but then again, that's not his style and Rafa is not playing him that way too. I am happy with his overall contribution and work rate, and see him playing for us a long time.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:59 am

I think most are a little disappointed in Kuyt or there wouldnt be such a clamour for a new striker, Villa , Tevez etc etc . His work rate(:D ) attitude and charactor have been exemplary, his goals return (and threat) less than we would have wished. I watched him in the Dutch league on a few occasions and he dropped just as deep there as he does now. The main difference as far as I can see is he no longer seems to attack the box with the ball at his feet. Less space, better defenders and perhaps a growing lack of confidence maybe.

His first touch was never the best and needs improvement, his heading has proved less than I had hoped and his fierce right foot shooting seems a distant memory .

Having said all that I still have hopes that he will adapt and next season will play an important part in our title success. The world cup, family illness, change of club etc will all have taken their toll on his mental fitness if not on his physical well being. He has looked tired recently and may need a break.

by **Owzat** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:45 am

I am disappointed with Kuyt's goals tally, his overall play is fine.

Dirk Kuyt

Home - 8 goals in 20 appearances (0.400 goals/app)
Away - 3 goals in 21 appearances (0.143 goals/app)

Overall - 11 goals in 41 appearances (0.268 goals/app)

And to compare with current other Liverpool strikers :-

Fowler : 13 goals in 32 appearances* (0.406 goals/app)
Crouch : 30 goals in 90 appearances (0.333 goals/app)
Kuyt : 11 goals in 41 appearances (0.268 goals/app)
Bellamy : 9 goals in 36 appearances (0.250 goals/app)
Luis Garcia : 30 goals in 121 appearances (0.248 goals/appearance)

*since Fowler returned to Anfield.

It is interesting that many consider Fowler 'past it', yet he manages a pretty good scoring rate and that in spite of limited time on the pitch. When given a full game he scores, when used as a sub he is much less effective yet half his appearances have been as a sub

Robbie Fowler

0-32 mins on pitch

1 goal in 16 appearances (0.063 goals/app)
1 goal in 240 mins (240 mins/goal)
240 mins over 16 appearances (15 mins/app)

60-79 mins on pitch

4 goals in 10 appearances (0.400 goals/app)
4 goals in 688 mins (172 mins/goal)
688 mins over 10 appearances (69 mins/app)

80-90 mins on pitch

8 goals in 6 appearances (1.333 goals/app)
8 goals in 524 mins (66 mins/goal)
524 mins over 6 appearances (87 mins/app)

Overall

13 goals in 32 appearances (0.406 goals/app)
13 goals in 1452 mins (112 mins/goal)
1452 mins over 32 appearances (45 mins/app)

So effectively Fowler is scoring roughly 4 goals for every 10 appearances while playing on average only 45 mins per appearance. While all three of his Premiership goals this season have come from the penalty spot he has still managed a pretty good record when given a decent chance. It's not like we have a better penalty taker or indeed any of our strikers are scoring so frequently that they're undroppable.

2005/6 : 6 goals in 14 appearances (0.429 goals/app)
2006/7 : 7 goals in 18 appearances (0.389 goals/app)

His record against top four, top half and bottom half sides in the Premiership is consistently at or over 0.333 goals per appearance so what more can he do to get half a chance?

All we are saying is give God a chance..........

by **dawson99** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:01 am

how come when i complained last season about strikers should be scoring everyone said that there is mroe to a striker than scoring goals. Now we got Kuyt, who admitted it would take a season to fit in properly, is scoring goals, and some very important ones, and people say we need more goals... sometimes we just cant win?

Kuyt hasnt set the club alight, but hes done a good job, he fights as hard as any other player and you can see that the rest of team are loving him there.

Some people who just say he isnt good enough need to get a clue im gonna have to say. We saw again yesterday he was getting in fantastic positions and should have scored more. Rememebr Drogba last season? Thierrys first season? Im not saying Kuyt is gonna do that, but then again why not? He gets in the positions and im pretty happy that next season he'll pop in 20 for us

and all this give god a chance malarkey... sorry but Fowler is not in Rafas plans. As is said in other threads we dont play to fowlers strentghs and we need more strikers who can also run a lot more chasing down and make there presecence felt more

by **LFC #1** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:10 am

s@int wrote:I think most are a little disappointed in Kuyt or there wouldnt be such a clamour for a new striker, Villa , Tevez etc etc . His work rate(:D ) attitude and charactor have been exemplary, his goals return (and threat) less than we would have wished. I watched him in the Dutch league on a few occasions and he dropped just as deep there as he does now. The main difference as far as I can see is he no longer seems to attack the box with the ball at his feet. Less space, better defenders and perhaps a growing lack of confidence maybe.

His first touch was never the best and needs improvement, his heading has proved less than I had hoped and his fierce right foot shooting seems a distant memory .

Having said all that I still have hopes that he will adapt and next season will play an important part in our title success. The world cup, family illness, change of club etc will all have taken their toll on his mental fitness if not on his physical well being. He has looked tired recently and may need a break.

Good post.

Kuyt is a good player, never a 20 goal a season man in the league but a good squad player at worst IMO.

I think he'd look even better with a prolific goalscorer in the side. His workrate is so good that he effectively does the work of two strikers, so if you had a lazy sod like Ronaldo (only an example) who doesn't do much work yet scores goals for fun then you'd have a very good striking partnership IMO. I think one of Rafa's faux pas is his unwillingness to have a stiker who is just an out and out goalscorer but doesn't work hard for the team, Fowler is a case in point. It's been mentioned already but the system Rafa employs means both strikers have to drop deep often and work very hard like a midfielder does. It's not a bad thing, but when you have two strikers doing the same thing it can lack that certain killer goal scoring edge.
Again i'll reiterate if we were willing to sign an out and out goalscorer, think Fowler in his pomp with a support striker like Kuyt then we'd have a very complementary striking partnership. For me it depends on who we sign. If we only sign one striker (which with the perplexing signing of Voronin i think we might) then for me our first choice pair next season are Kuyt and player X. If we sign Tevez and player X for example, then those would be my first choice pair wih Kuyt dropping to the bench. I don't feel Tevez and Kuyt would ever work as both tend to play quite deep, especially Tevez who likes to play in the "hole" behind the striker. Crouch and Tevez would actually be a very interesting prospect IMO.

It's going to be fascinating in the Summer that’s for sure.

by **destro** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:10 pm

I hear figures of 25million being brandished about to sign Tevez ? Ive been impressed with him in the last two games and the fact hes adapting to the pace of english football is a bonus but surely there must be better out there for that ammount ! ( Do we know what the final cost of mascherano is ?)

by **stmichael** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:52 pm

Forget Kuyt, if you ask me it's Bellamy we should be majorly worried about. I'm actually struggling to recall the last time he had a decent shot never mind scored. He seems to me he does all his best work on the flanks cos he's apparently forgotten how to make a proper intelligent centre forward's run. With his pace he should be getting in behind the centre backs at least once a game but his lack of brains means this doesn't happen anywhere near often enough.

Yesterday he played like Baros and we changed for the better after he came off. It wouldn't surprise me if he's on his way in the summer. I know for a fact that Villa are interested.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:03 pm

Bellamy scored and also made a goal for Riise against Barcelona, I think he took early retirement after that game.

by **JBG** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:16 pm

Out of the three main strikers (discounting Fowler, whose best days were last century and is on the way out anyway) Bellamy is the one I'd let go in the summer.

Kuyt is only new to this league, has done reasonably well (although he'd agree himself that his goals scored has been below par) and I think he will get better with time and has the attitude and smarts to improve next year.

I'd definitely keep Crouch as he is constantly improving and surprising everybody. Crouch is also a major asset in Europe.

In contrast to those two, Bellamy has blown it in my opinion. He's been around the block and has been a star in the Premiership since he was a teenager. He was terrific for Blackburn last year and was terrific for Newcastle a couple of years ago. Rafa took a punt on him which hasn't worked. Now, don't get me wrong, Bellamy hasn't been terrible or anything, but moving to Liverpool was a chance for Bellamy to put his money where his (large) mouth is and move on to the next level, something he simply hasn't done. Liverpool are too big a club for Bellamy. He'll probably do well at an Aston Villa but he ain't gonna win leagues for Liverpool, thats for sure.

by **stmichael** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:55 pm

JBG wrote:Out of the three main strikers (discounting Fowler, whose best days were last century and is on the way out anyway) Bellamy is the one I'd let go in the summer.

Kuyt is only new to this league, has done reasonably well (although he'd agree himself that his goals scored has been below par) and I think he will get better with time and has the attitude and smarts to improve next year.

I'd definitely keep Crouch as he is constantly improving and surprising everybody. Crouch is also a major asset in Europe.

In contrast to those two, Bellamy has blown it in my opinion. He's been around the block and has been a star in the Premiership since he was a teenager. He was terrific for Blackburn last year and was terrific for Newcastle a couple of years ago. Rafa took a punt on him which hasn't worked. Now, don't get me wrong, Bellamy hasn't been terrible or anything, but moving to Liverpool was a chance for Bellamy to put his money where his (large) mouth is and move on to the next level, something he simply hasn't done. Liverpool are too big a club for Bellamy. He'll probably do well at an Aston Villa but he ain't gonna win leagues for Liverpool, thats for sure.

I've heard nothing concrete that he will be sold, but the suggestion I've had for a while now is that he'd have to be pretty special until the end of the season to save himself.

With Voronin coming in, plus the likelihood of a really top striker coming in, I'd be very surprised if Bellamy survives to be honest.

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:20 pm

Fowler's clearly unfavoured. Bellamy's not going to stay for my money.

Kuyt is clearly favoured and Rafa's golden boy and he's already said Crouch is going nowhere.

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