Liverpool FC Forum

Smeg wrote:The priotiy must be two strikers, a left midfielder, centre back, then right back.
         

           Kuyt  ST

LM   Alonso   Gerrard Pennant

LB   Hyypia  Carra   RB - Only if we can get Alvez.

            Reina

so what stu said then?   

Fowler_E7 wrote:

Smeg wrote:The priotiy must be two strikers, a left midfielder, centre back, then right back.
         

           Kuyt  ST

LM   Alonso   Gerrard Pennant

LB   Hyypia  Carra   RB - Only if we can get Alvez.

            Reina

so what stu said then?   

Yeah he know his stuff our Smeg, I've drummed it into him on msn so i think he's submitted and just aggreed. Good lad.

Redman in wales wrote:1. highlighted and back-up by facts like the game against villa - what was it? - 8 'defensive' -minded players on the team, and 3 attacking?

2. What Rafa should do (though its highly unlikely he would) is actually sit down with tapes of Utd chelsea and Arsenal and just look at their football. - See how attacking it is and consequently how they finish above us (nearly) every season.
As you've pointed out - See how many attacking players they have in their side - and they still manage to win many many games 3-0 and 4-1 with defences comparable to ours.

3. Defenders of the caliber of Carra and Hyypia/Agger shoudn't need TWO defensive midfielders infront of them. If Gerrard is our only attack-minded central midfielder then the way I see it is he has to play in the middle every single game (bar the big games when momo, Xabi and stevie would be needed)

4. Pennant is by all means not the greatest RW in the world, but at least he offers us some attacking threat down the right AT THE SAME TIME as stevie G offering a threat down the middle.

5. The left hand side is a pickle with kewell and garcia injured, but surely if Riise plays LB then we can alternate between Aurelio and Gonzo down the LW it may give us more balance and a better option down the left. (I dont like riise LW with Aurelio LB, it just doesn't seem to work that way round)

I've edited your post to make my point.

1. I am sick of hearing the attack versus defence arguement. We don't have Paul Scholes and Christiano Ronaldo. We also don't have Giggs or Evra so its ludicrous people expect us to play like United. The fact is you need to play to your strengths, weather they are defensive or forward thinking. Teams that play to there strengths are good sides regardless of weather they are "attacking or defensive". Look at Chelsea in the first season under Mourinho, they were no where near an "attacking fancy dan side". They were very solid, well organised and efficient. They certainly weren't "pleasing on the eye" for the idiots who like pretty football and think thats the be all and end all.

HOWEVER... theres is some truth in it when you refere to the team against Villa.

2. Pretty much the same point as number one. You also say how they finish above us every season... Thats down to personel. United finished 1 point ahead of us last season playing "defensively" as you put it. Under Houllier when we finished second we weren't "attacking" either and finished above them which clearly proves you're talking absoloute .

3. I this makes me laugh alot. Sami Hyypia wasn't a pacey centre half. Although a class player he relied on being boxed in by his own players, if you give Sami 20 yards the chances are anyone with a tiny bit of pace will rip him to shreds if they are half decent. IE Johnson, Bellamy, Defoe standard of players. If you do it against quick players who are world class you're wasting your time. So you box him in, you cover him alot, but the chances are he'll read lose balls, headers and has the composure to pick a pass. Can you imagine Sami in place of Ferdinand in Uniteds team up on the half way line When united have the ball... with Ferdinand its a bit different, drop it in behind and he'll get there because he's quick, drop it in behind Sami then simple as the striker has a one on one with the keeper.

Basically you all need to take of the rose tinted spectacles. Uniteds defence is miles ahead of ours in terms of personel, pace, power and ability to play which is the exact reason they can play like they do and have a defensive record like they do. Agger wouldn't get near United's team, Vidic and Ferdinand are far better players than Agger will ever be. Carragher may get in ahead of Vidic but I wouldn't put my life on it. There full backs also wipe the floor with ours weather people like it or not.

We absoloutely desperately NEED a top class centre half to play with Carragher so we can push up the field and expand our game slightly and keep pressure on opponents higher up the pitch. Those who think a player like Agger is upto the job are those who wonder why we're so far behind and can't understand why we are where we are.

4. Jermaine Pennant for me has shown ability in fits and starts. One week he'll beat players and put bad crosses in the, the next he won't beat anyone but put good crosses in, the next he'll work hard but not offer anything going forward, occassionally he's put if altogether but not consistently. He should start more games and I would love to see Kewell, Alonso, Gerrard and Pennant given five games to see how that works out in terms of balance.

The other thing about Pennant is it doesn't matter about his quality of cross. Kuyt can't head a ball to save his life and Bellamy isn't much better. Neither player are the sort of players that will score consistently from crosses like Fowler or even Crouch. Fowler shown against Villa (again i may add) that with Pennant in the team we can give him the right service he'll get chances. It was only a tremendous save that stopped us winning the game at the end. Ask yourself, would Bellamy or Kuyt have attacked that ball the way Robbie did? Answer: A definate NO!

5. Aurelio is a left back. NEVER in a million years is he a left winger. He looks lost out there and like a left back playing left wing. He's also one who i think deserves another season to get fit as he's shown in fits and starts his class. At the minute with Kewell out the only option at left midfield is Riise. Gonzalez is simply as is Zenden and neither player should be near the first team. You say Riise at left midfield doesn't work... I'm sorry but I disagree completely. It worked at home to Chelsea. Riise is probably defensively more sound than Aurelio but the fact is you don't play players out of position to disguise a weakness and Aurelio doesn't know how to play left midfield. Riise does.

Riise's equally good at both.

Bamaga man wrote:Most of the people on here are probably right in the signings we need, like a winger or two and some more creativity upfront and goals of course.

But the one major thing we do need next season as much as players is basically for Rafa to put what seems to be the simple things to us right. I think as we are with him TBH we wont win the Prem until he takes a completely different approach to things.

For instance, all these signings we're talking about. In hindsight once their in the squad and of course good enough. The team in theory should pick itself week in week out, but that doesnt happen with Rafa really does it? Has he learnt from the begining of this season I wonder, also small things like what seem to me like weird substitutions.

My main point that Rafa really needs to work on, for me personally. Is the teams creativeness in training. I was thinking this last night, and I reckon its easier to marshall and organise a defence or a team defensively. Hell Houllier had that down pat, its easier for centerhalfs to mark a player, its easier for defenders to communicate to eachother and keep a structured line at the back and so ...

I think its harder for a manager to add to the players abilities to create openings and be attack minded, and this is where I think Rafa struggles. He likes his team to score more than rely on one or two forwards, and this approach hasnt really worked out for us. TBH the team is almost in like a Houllier-esk kind of state, where we can defend but cant really create, attack and look devastating going forward, for me as well as the players brought in Rafa has to coach them right (obviously).

stmichael wrote:Three things occur to me that give pause for thought: firstly, any successful side needs to be built from the solid foundation of a great defence - and ours is the best in Europe, in my opinion. Secondly, he's never had the funds to sign the essential, but expensive qualities of pace and goals until now. Finally, I still have a very vivid mental picture of Pablo Aimar camped on the edge of our area in front of The Kop a few years, pulling the strings of one of the most breath-taking attacking displays we've ever been subjected to; that was Rafa's creation. However, I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little apprehensive about who he brings in in the summer. Bottom line: we need top attacking signings who make a big impact - and quickly.

stmichael wrote:

Ladeulcateg wrote:Uniteds defence is miles ahead of ours in terms of personel, pace, power and ability to play which is the exact reason they can play like they do and have a defensive record like they do. Agger wouldn't get near United's team, Vidic and Ferdinand are far better players than Agger will ever be. Carragher may get in ahead of Vidic but I wouldn't put my life on it. There full backs also wipe the floor with ours weather people like it or not.

We absoloutely desperately NEED a top class centre half to play with Carragher so we can push up the field and expand our game slightly and keep pressure on opponents higher up the pitch. Those who think a player like Agger is upto the job are those who wonder why we're so far behind and can't understand why we are where we are.

Decent point Stu.

Carra and Agger are just as solid as Ferdinand and Vidic but as you say, do not get forward nearly as often. It is a joy to see Agger stride out of defence into midfield with the ball but have you noticed this happens less and less (has Rafa got hold of him?). These types of runs that Agger makes are the kind of things that players who are a top class sides do that other players can't, it is what seperates them from people like Craig Short and other alehouse merchants.

Finnan, much as I love the lad defensively has one glaring weakness which is he does not get up the pitch enough. Now he had no problem doing so at Fulham but the years have caught up with him so I don't know if it is he can't do it anymore or he is told not to. When he does get up the pitch he is a decent crosser of the ball (usually from deep) but if you were a winger you would really prefer if someone overlapped giving you an option and putting a doubt in the mind of the fullback creating a problem. This is something Neville and Evra both do and in Evra's case he does it at really high speed.

So in other words our back 4 may be able to defend as well as anyone but we don't even come close attack wise.

Stop doin that.

You've been clocked again. That was in the same place. No-one knows what I'm on about, but you do. So behave yaself.

To the point anyway...

Carragher and Agger aren't as solid as Ferdinand and Vidic. Nowhere near.

Ladeulcateg wrote:

stmichael wrote:Three things occur to me that give pause for thought: firstly, any successful side needs to be built from the solid foundation of a great defence - and ours is the best in Europe, in my opinion. Secondly, he's never had the funds to sign the essential, but expensive qualities of pace and goals until now. Finally, I still have a very vivid mental picture of Pablo Aimar camped on the edge of our area in front of The Kop a few years, pulling the strings of one of the most breath-taking attacking displays we've ever been subjected to; that was Rafa's creation. However, I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little apprehensive about who he brings in in the summer. Bottom line: we need top attacking signings who make a big impact - and quickly.

The best defence in europe? As an 11 yes. Definately I'd go with that. As a back five... don't make me laugh. Its not even the best in the league.

Gallas, Toure, Eboue, Neville, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Heinze, Terry, Carvalho and Cole would all walk into our team.

You also say he's not had the funds... I'm sorry but thats rubbish. Absoloute rubbish.

£7,000,000 on Crouch where he could have spend £7,250,000 on Ashton who's stronger, quicker, a better finisher and better alround player and more prolific....

£15,500,000 on Kuyt and Bellamy when he could have had Anelka for £8,000,000 who is twice the player either of them will ever be. He's also got goals in abundance sitting on the bench every week that he signed for nothing last Janurary. A lad who creates goals aswell and has the intelligence to open any defence in the world up with a goal or clever flick.

If this team had Ashton and Anelka upfront as apose to Kuyt and Bellamy not one person would be saying Liverpool need a striker. I absoloutely garentee it.

Aimar is a great player. The problem being with him is you NEED two class wingers either side of him and you NEED two defensive midfielders behind him.