Liverpool FC Forum

by **E.Jack You Late** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:37 pm

If he wants to leave let him go but only for a big sum, if he doesn't want to leave then no amount of money or swap deal should make us sell him.

by **Ade** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:08 pm

Scottbot wrote:
Ade wrote:But although other players have been under par this season, he just isn't doing enough for me - there aren't enough killer balls and nowhere near enough goals from someone deployed as an attacking CM - although i take the point that Rafa tends to play him too deep sometimes.

Attacking CM?!!!!!! ?? This is a player who had the 2nd most tackles in the premiership last season and about as many again this season. Alonso might be able to play the killer pass but he is essentially a Defensive Midfielder and has been since he arrived at the club.

When i posted that i thought i'd get this response, but posted it anyway. For me, Alonso does get through an awful lot of defensive work, but i'm not convinced Rafa sees him just as a defensive midfielder. He's a player whose passing game is naturally better than anyone else in the side, and a player who is there to set the tempo from central midfield. If Rafa sees Alonso as nothing but a defensive midfielder, why was he so happy to put Stevie wide right so often last season and leave centre mid to Alonso and Sissoko - what, two defensive midfielders?

On Sunday, against Villa, we had people complaining that Rafa was being negative by picking Mascherano and Sissoko - two defensive midfielders, and that things only picked up once Alonso came on. What, another defensive midfielder?

xabi might not have the pace or engine to be a box to box player, or a Platt/Cahill-type ability to arrive at the right moment, but i think Rafa would like him to be a more creative player than the likes of Sissoko and Mascherano, who are - like Makalele – destructive, classic defensive midfielders. I think Alonso has the ability to be much more than that and would do better playing centre mid ahead of the likes of Masch or Sissoko (maybe in a 3-5-2).

Perhaps it's what i'd prefer to see Alonso as rather than what he is by instinct. But i see him as a potentially excellent attacking midfielder - ie, someone like Hoddle, who orchestrates attacking football from the centre circle, not someone who runs round box to box.

Sabre, fair enough, you know him better than anyone; but i think we're shackling Alonso by treating him only as a defensive midfielder

by **Sabre** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:42 pm

I think you have a fairly negative idea of a defensive midfielder, as if that would mean that a player in that position cannot try long range efforts or creative play.

It's been a while since the position of "Libero" (I think you call it sweeper) isn't used in European football. If you think of a sweeper you might think of a defensive player, that is behind other defenders to collect the garbage.

But then you have Beckenbauer, who mainly was a sweeper, and that didn't prevent him from doing a lot of creative stuff and dictating the tempo. But he was a sweeper nonetheless.

If you think of a defensive midfielder you can inmediatly think of a man like Hamman. Good positioning, good tackling, master the aerial balls that come from goal kicks and defence long balls, all that stuff. But there will be defensive midfielders that will do other things besides that. In the case of Alonso he does orientation changes of a lot of yards, set pieces, and some deep inner passings. But his position? defensive midfielder.

He'll be the first to get the ball from the defence if they decide to play not long, he'll have most of his team mates on front of him, and he'll do most of the covers to those men on front of him. And he's very good doing that, and that's mostly what I appreciate of his game, not his goals.

Schuster the Getafe coach was a player like him. Koeman was another defensive mid (sometimes sweeper) who liked to shoot from range often, but didn't have Alonso's good touch. But those are extra attributes, we're not talking about his position here.

His long shots, easily controlable curled long passes, his set pieces, are just bonus features of Alonso, but his position is defensive midfielder. Perhaps we were talking about different things.

P.S. As I understand it the debate you're rising is wether we are sacrificing Alonso in too many dark tasks, that would be a good debate. I think that sacrifice is a must, when you play with 2 strikers and a attacking midfielder like Gerrard. Let alone if you play a pure winger like Pennant besides that. If Alonso didn't do that dark stuff, we wouldn't have our defensive record.

by **stmichael** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:52 pm

Sabre wrote:I'm open minded, and I'm ready to accept different opinions. But I'd like to read more in depth reasons from those who say Alonso is below par this season. I read it often, but I'd like an explanation.

From my point of view the lad has grown a lot as a player the last 3 seasons, that's why I ask.

I'll answer that for you Sabre.

He's not been at his best by any means but it has to be said that other players are making him look bad at times. He's played some amazing killer balls this season which the attacking players haven't made the most of.

Alot of the time he's spraying balls out wide to Pennant, only for him to cut inside and lose it or produce a sh#t cross. Alonso is only as good as those around him. People say he's the quarterback of the team, but a quarterback is only as good as his receivers. If they keep dropping the ball, the QB's stats are sh#t.

by **Ade** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:57 pm

Sabre wrote:I think you have a fairly negative idea of a defensive midfielder, as if that would mean that a player in that position cannot try long range efforts or creative play.

It's been a while since the position of "Libero" (I think you call it sweeper) isn't used in European football. If you think of a sweeper you might think of a defensive player, that is behind other defenders to collect the garbage.

But then you have Beckenbauer, who mainly was a sweeper, and that didn't prevent him from doing a lot of creative stuff and dictating the tempo. But he was a sweeper nonetheless.

If you think of a defensive midfielder you can inmediatly think of a man like Hamman. Good positioning, good tackling, master the aerial balls that come from goal kicks and defence long balls, all that stuff. But there will be defensive midfielders that will do other things besides that. In the case of Alonso he does orientation changes of a lot of yards, set pieces, and some deep inner passings. But his position? defensive midfielder.

He'll be the first to get the ball from the defence if they decide to play not long, he'll have most of his team mates on front of him, and he'll do most of the covers to those men on front of him. And he's very good doing that, and that's mostly what I appreciate of his game, not his goals.

Schuster the Getafe coach was a player like him. Koeman was another defensive mid (sometimes sweeper) who liked to shoot from range often, but didn't have Alonso's good touch. But those are extra attributes, we're not talking about his position here.

His long shots, easily controlable curled long passes, his set pieces, are just bonus features of Alonso, but his position is defensive midfielder. Perhaps we were talking about different things.

good post Sabre.

For me, a defensive midfielder is primarily a defensive player, a bulwark, a cover for the back four and a destroyer - Alonso offers that, but he has the class to be much more. I'm not saying defensive mid isn't his natural game, but our situation demands more of him, and Rafa bringing in Sissoko and Masch suggests to me that rafa believes he can get more out of Alonso.

As for defensive mid being Xabi's natural position, so many players down the years have been liberated by being asked to adapt and change their instinctive game – and Xabi can do that.

Bottom line is that i don't think Rafa would've brought in Momo and Masch if Alonso's long-term future at the club was only as a defensive mid. We need to play higher up the field, more attacking football if we're gonna win the league, and Alonso has the class to hurt teams by playing a more attacking game. Schuster and Koeman played in low-scoring leagues, Xabi does not.

That's where i wanna see him. So you may be right, i'm seeing something in him that isn't naturally his game. But at the moment, we're not scoring enough goals, and he can be a key man in turning that round.

by **JC_81** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:01 pm

stmichael wrote:
Sabre wrote:I'm open minded, and I'm ready to accept different opinions. But I'd like to read more in depth reasons from those who say Alonso is below par this season. I read it often, but I'd like an explanation.

From my point of view the lad has grown a lot as a player the last 3 seasons, that's why I ask.

I'll answer that for you Sabre.

He's not been at his best by any means but it has to be said that other players are making him look bad at times. He's played some amazing killer balls this season which the attacking players haven't made the most of.

Alot of the time he's spraying balls out wide to Pennant, only for him to cut inside and lose it or produce a sh#t cross. Alonso is only as good as those around him. People say he's the quarterback of the team, but a quarterback is only as good as his receivers. If they keep dropping the ball, the QB's stats are sh#t.

I think that's being a bit kind on Alonso St Mike.

His passing has not been as good this season imo, a lot of his longer passes that used to find their target have been going wayward this season. I also think he's been guilty of disappearing in games this season, he's failed to dictate games as much as he used to.

I think a lot of this is because our midfield has been chopped and changed so much this season. One week he's got Sissoko in the middle with him, then Gerrard. In the first part of the season he also had Zenden in there. Sissoko has had an unsettled season, partly because he's been out injured for a long time, and with Gerrard being switched all over the midfield, he's had a below par season also. All this contributes to the midfield being weaker this season and it certainly hasn't helped Alonso's form.

Whether there are other outside factors affecting his form I wouldn't know. But I don't think he's had a good season.

by **76-1174245250** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:05 pm

To throw a spanner in the works completely for the balance of the team I personally don't like alot of things about Alonso's game and certain things about Gerrard.

For me Alonso's movement when going forward is very average and to often he's static when the full backs have the ball. He will always give a centre half an option but at times you think he can do more when the full back has the ball. Gerrard is very good in this area, which is the reverse of Xabi. Gerrard doesn't seem to take the ball off the centre half's and gets things moving aswell as Xabi. The master at both of these skills is Paul Scholes.

He also seems to have a tendancy to sucked out wide towards the full backs when they are defending leaving a big hole in the middle. Its a good job we have Carragher who see's the danger when this happens.

The other thing that bothers me is that out of Gerrard and Alonso, our "defensive" midfielder has the better vision, passing, technique and game intelligence and our "attacking" midfielder has the better tackling, workrate, stamina, aggression, bottle, strength and drive...

Go figure.

I also believe both players are misunderstood by our fans. I remember the Chelsea match at anfield this season, Steven covered every blade of grass, picked out the pass of the match, won about 5 or 6 tackles and was generally immense and then I go on forum's and read how he was average and quiet because he didn't score a goal or set one up or basically because he didn't drag the team bag from the depths of defeat.

Also Alonso vs Man Utd he completely dicated that game from the middle of the pitch on his own. His tackles, choice of pass and ability to draw the opposition out of position by holding onto the ball and turning in the middle of the pitch was excellent. Had he not been playing next to Sissoko and we'd have more quality upfront and on the left wing we'd have probably given the mancs a pasting.

What I do like about them obviously is they are unquestionabley our best two players, I just think the two of them in the same side doesn't give us a great balance. Hopefully when Kewell returns or we sign a top class left winger with two quality strikers we'll see the balance we had last year return and improve.

by **76-1174245250** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:07 pm

john craig wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Sabre wrote:I'm open minded, and I'm ready to accept different opinions. But I'd like to read more in depth reasons from those who say Alonso is below par this season. I read it often, but I'd like an explanation.

From my point of view the lad has grown a lot as a player the last 3 seasons, that's why I ask.

I'll answer that for you Sabre.

He's not been at his best by any means but it has to be said that other players are making him look bad at times. He's played some amazing killer balls this season which the attacking players haven't made the most of.

Alot of the time he's spraying balls out wide to Pennant, only for him to cut inside and lose it or produce a sh#t cross. Alonso is only as good as those around him. People say he's the quarterback of the team, but a quarterback is only as good as his receivers. If they keep dropping the ball, the QB's stats are sh#t.

I think that's being a bit kind on Alonso St Mike.

His passing has not been as good this season imo, a lot of his longer passes that used to find their target have been going wayward this season. I also think he's been guilty of disappearing in games this season, he's failed to dictate games as much as he used to.

I think a lot of this is because our midfield has been chopped and changed so much this season. One week he's got Sissoko in the middle with him, then Gerrard. In the first part of the season he also had Zenden in there. Sissoko has had an unsettled season, partly because he's been out injured for a long time, and with Gerrard being switched all over the midfield, he's had a below par season also. All this contributes to the midfield being weaker this season and it certainly hasn't helped Alonso's form.

Whether there are other outside factors affecting his form I wouldn't know. But I don't think he's had a good season.

Good post.

by **Sabre** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:11 pm

As for defensive mid being Xabi's natural position, so many players down the years have been liberated by being asked to adapt and change their instinctive game - and Xabi can do that.

Can he? Alonso needs a lot of space to live. Alonso doesn't know and will never know playing backwards to the oposition goal, I mean receiving the ball when he looks to his own goal. He doesn't know turning back in a narrow space, and he doesn't know changing his rythm abruptly. He could never make it in the position that plays Gerrard. He could never play on a wing as Gerrard can, and he cannot run as much Km as Sissoko does, and he's not pacy. His game is about being well positioned, and having good tackle when he's defending, and having composture and vision when he has the ball.

He needs space, he always does the same, he looks, he fakes a pass, and he deludes the man on front of him turning in another direction. You can do that in his position, but you cannot do that a few metres upper, they won't leave you, there's not time for that, if you turn like he likes to do, another oposition man will be there.

I think it's debatable allowing Alonso having more freedom to go up or find a long range effort, for that you must put someone beside him. But I think he'll never be an attacking midfielder, he simply hasn't what's required for that.

P.S. Welcome back Stu

by **JC_81** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:16 pm

Ladeulcateg wrote:To throw a spanner in the works completely for the balance of the team I personally don't like alot of things about Alonso's game and certain things about Gerrard.

For me Alonso's movement when going forward is very average and to often he's static when the full backs have the ball. He will always give a centre half an option but at times you think he can do more when the full back has the ball. Gerrard is very good in this area, which is the reverse of Xabi. Gerrard doesn't seem to take the ball off the centre half's and gets things moving aswell as Xabi. The master at both of these skills is Paul Scholes.

He also seems to have a tendancy to sucked out wide towards the full backs when they are defending leaving a big hole in the middle. Its a good job we have Carragher who see's the danger when this happens.

The other thing that bothers me is that out of Gerrard and Alonso, our "defensive" midfielder has the better vision, passing, technique and game intelligence and our "attacking" midfielder has the better tackling, workrate, stamina, aggression, bottle, strength and drive...

Go figure.

I also believe both players are misunderstood by our fans. I remember the Chelsea match at anfield this season, Steven covered every blade of grass, picked out the pass of the match, won about 5 or 6 tackles and was generally immense and then I go on forum's and read how he was average and quiet because he didn't score a goal or set one up or basically because he didn't drag the team bag from the depths of defeat.

Also Alonso vs Man Utd he completely dicated that game from the middle of the pitch on his own. His tackles, choice of pass and ability to draw the opposition out of position by holding onto the ball and turning in the middle of the pitch was excellent. Had he not been playing next to Sissoko and we'd have more quality upfront and on the left wing we'd have probably given the mancs a pasting.

What I do like about them obviously is they are unquestionabley our best two players, I just think the two of them in the same side doesn't give us a great balance. Hopefully when Kewell returns or we sign a top class left winger with two quality strikers we'll see the balance we had last year return and improve.

Some good points there Stu.

Agree about Alonso getting sucked out wide to cover the full backs at times, and that he could improve a lot in his forward movement.

Every player has flaws I suppose, but Alonso and Gerrard along with Fowler are our most naturally gifted players. I know it's an old debate but I'm still not convinced Gerrard and Alonso get the best out of each other at centre mid.

by **stmichael** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:17 pm

Ade wrote:For me, a defensive midfielder is primarily a defensive player, a bulwark, a cover for the back four and a destroyer - Alonso offers that, but he has the class to be much more. I'm not saying defensive mid isn't his natural game, but our situation demands more of him, and Rafa bringing in Sissoko and Masch suggests to me that rafa believes he can get more out of Alonso.

As for defensive mid being Xabi's natural position, so many players down the years have been liberated by being asked to adapt and change their instinctive game – and Xabi can do that.

Bottom line is that i don't think Rafa would've brought in Momo and Masch if Alonso's long-term future at the club was only as a defensive mid. We need to play higher up the field, more attacking football if we're gonna win the league, and Alonso has the class to hurt teams by playing a more attacking game. Schuster and Koeman played in low-scoring leagues, Xabi does not.

That's where i wanna see him. So you may be right, i'm seeing something in him that isn't naturally his game. But at the moment, we're not scoring enough goals, and he can be a key man in turning that round.

Momo in the starting 11 in a 4-4-2 means that Alonso has to do 2 roles (defensive and creative -check the stats). With Mascherano now ours, it puts Momo down to 4th choice in my eyes, he offers nothing to a team that needs to attack, create and go at teams, especially at home.

There is a fantastic video of Alonso's first season with us where he plays more in the other teams half than he does his own, he is picking passes out and sliding balls through like he should be doing now but can't because with Momo in the team Alonso is very restricted, he is the one who has to collect the ball from the back and start the attack but this is not what he should be doing but has to...why? Because Momo cant do this, he has no ability to collect a ball (with a good first touch), get his head up and pick a pass out (ideal that would be straight to Alonso). he is a very one dimensional player.

For a player who's position is to be ahead of Alonso or an holding midfielder (Mascherano) I would expect them to be like a Kaka or maybe even a Gerrard, but he aint! He creates nothing and never looks like scoring (we will be lucky to get 1 goal a season from him).

Sissoko needs to stop talking about been the new Vieira because at them moment his ability makes him more closer to Robbie Savage (who can at least pass a ball).

Now if we played with 5 in midfield then this would be a different story, then he would be a great asset but even then I would pick Mascherano ahead of him.

by **Ade** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:49 pm

stmichael wrote:
Ade wrote:For me, a defensive midfielder is primarily a defensive player, a bulwark, a cover for the back four and a destroyer - Alonso offers that, but he has the class to be much more. I'm not saying defensive mid isn't his natural game, but our situation demands more of him, and Rafa bringing in Sissoko and Masch suggests to me that rafa believes he can get more out of Alonso.

As for defensive mid being Xabi's natural position, so many players down the years have been liberated by being asked to adapt and change their instinctive game – and Xabi can do that.

Bottom line is that i don't think Rafa would've brought in Momo and Masch if Alonso's long-term future at the club was only as a defensive mid. We need to play higher up the field, more attacking football if we're gonna win the league, and Alonso has the class to hurt teams by playing a more attacking game. Schuster and Koeman played in low-scoring leagues, Xabi does not.

That's where i wanna see him. So you may be right, i'm seeing something in him that isn't naturally his game. But at the moment, we're not scoring enough goals, and he can be a key man in turning that round.

Momo in the starting 11 in a 4-4-2 means that Alonso has to do 2 roles (defensive and creative -check the stats). With Mascherano now ours, it puts Momo down to 4th choice in my eyes, he offers nothing to a team that needs to attack, create and go at teams, especially at home.

There is a fantastic video of Alonso's first season with us where he plays more in the other teams half than he does his own, he is picking passes out and sliding balls through like he should be doing now but can't because with Momo in the team Alonso is very restricted, he is the one who has to collect the ball from the back and start the attack but this is not what he should be doing but has to...why? Because Momo cant do this, he has no ability to collect a ball (with a good first touch), get his head up and pick a pass out (ideal that would be straight to Alonso). he is a very one dimensional player.

For a player who's position is to be ahead of Alonso or an holding midfielder (Mascherano) I would expect them to be like a Kaka or maybe even a Gerrard, but he aint! He creates nothing and never looks like scoring (we will be lucky to get 1 goal a season from him).

Sissoko needs to stop talking about been the new Vieira because at them moment his ability makes him more closer to Robbie Savage (who can at least pass a ball).

Now if we played with 5 in midfield then this would be a different story, then he would be a great asset but even then I would pick Mascherano ahead of him.

Which is roughly in line with my point about Xabi. For me, Mascherano is a signing of massive significance, and i think Momo may be the one to lose out. It's very early days, but i think Mascherano could be one of the best signings we've made in years, and given that Rafa is clearly fond of Alonso, it might be that Masch is there to liberate Xabi to get forward a little.

Sabre, you say Xabi will not be the type of player to play facing his own keeper and pick up the ball from defence, turn and go forward; i see him doing that quite a lot, but in positions that are too deep to hurt the other side. He needs to play further forward, because i'll put my neck on the line here and say that Mascherano has the potential to be a better defensive midfielder than Alonso, and soon.

It all leads to a 4-5-1 for me:

reina

Finnan
carra
agger
Heinze

Mascherano

new right winger
stevie
Xabi
new left winger

Villa or Eto'o

by **76-1174245250** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:00 pm

stmichael wrote:
Ade wrote:For me, a defensive midfielder is primarily a defensive player, a bulwark, a cover for the back four and a destroyer - Alonso offers that, but he has the class to be much more. I'm not saying defensive mid isn't his natural game, but our situation demands more of him, and Rafa bringing in Sissoko and Masch suggests to me that rafa believes he can get more out of Alonso.

As for defensive mid being Xabi's natural position, so many players down the years have been liberated by being asked to adapt and change their instinctive game – and Xabi can do that.

Bottom line is that i don't think Rafa would've brought in Momo and Masch if Alonso's long-term future at the club was only as a defensive mid. We need to play higher up the field, more attacking football if we're gonna win the league, and Alonso has the class to hurt teams by playing a more attacking game. Schuster and Koeman played in low-scoring leagues, Xabi does not.

That's where i wanna see him. So you may be right, i'm seeing something in him that isn't naturally his game. But at the moment, we're not scoring enough goals, and he can be a key man in turning that round.

Momo in the starting 11 in a 4-4-2 means that Alonso has to do 2 roles (defensive and creative -check the stats). With Mascherano now ours, it puts Momo down to 4th choice in my eyes, he offers nothing to a team that needs to attack, create and go at teams, especially at home.

There is a fantastic video of Alonso's first season with us where he plays more in the other teams half than he does his own, he is picking passes out and sliding balls through like he should be doing now but can't because with Momo in the team Alonso is very restricted, he is the one who has to collect the ball from the back and start the attack but this is not what he should be doing but has to...why? Because Momo cant do this, he has no ability to collect a ball (with a good first touch), get his head up and pick a pass out (ideal that would be straight to Alonso). he is a very one dimensional player.

For a player who's position is to be ahead of Alonso or an holding midfielder (Mascherano) I would expect them to be like a Kaka or maybe even a Gerrard, but he aint! He creates nothing and never looks like scoring (we will be lucky to get 1 goal a season from him).

Sissoko needs to stop talking about been the new Vieira because at them moment his ability makes him more closer to Robbie Savage (who can at least pass a ball).

Now if we played with 5 in midfield then this would be a different story, then he would be a great asset but even then I would pick Mascherano ahead of him.

Momo's the new Vieira though. When he learns to pass and control a ball he'll be world class. You're stupid for saying otherwise and you disagree with Rafa. In Rafa we trust.

by **stmichael** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:21 pm

Ladeulcateg wrote:Momo's the new Vieira though. When he learns to pass and control a ball he'll be world class. You're stupid for saying otherwise and you disagree with Rafa. In Rafa we trust.

whatever happened to "banana" anyway? :laugh:

according to him, baros was better than owen

by **76-1174245250** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:46 pm

What fool that man was.

Absolotuely clueless.

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