Are our forwards good enough?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby stmichael » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:47 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:I agree that we could do with a penalty box striker....(although i still think Kuyt can do that)

But its the wide areas that are stopping us ripping teams to shreds, our wide players are not in the same league as the likes of Robben, Ronaldo, Rosicky or Giggs, if our wide midfielders contributed more goals and were more positive the strikers would benefit so much.
I really think if we signed a top draw striker left winger and right winger we would be far more creative and give the opposition so many more problems.
Villa, Alves and someone like Vicente, who has had his injuries but seems to have lost his regular place to Silva.

I'd broadly agree with that Ace. Goals should be coming in abundence from both wings. Remember Arsenal at their peak with Ljungberg and Pires on either side?  That was one hell of a team.

Put simply, neither Pennant or Gonzalez have been good enough this season in terms of their overall productivity. For me, the priority position to make a signing to rectify the problems is left midfield - because we have a man who can score shed-loads from the right already in Gerrard.  I'd rather see him wide right, Alonso and Mascherano (or Sissoko) in the middle, and a world class player wide left than a world class player wide right, Alonso and Gerrard in the middle and Gonzalez wide left, with Masch / Sissoko on the bench.

Our goalscoring from midfield so far this season has been virtually non-existent.
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Postby A.B. » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:52 pm

stmichael wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:I agree that we could do with a penalty box striker....(although i still think Kuyt can do that)

But its the wide areas that are stopping us ripping teams to shreds, our wide players are not in the same league as the likes of Robben, Ronaldo, Rosicky or Giggs, if our wide midfielders contributed more goals and were more positive the strikers would benefit so much.
I really think if we signed a top draw striker left winger and right winger we would be far more creative and give the opposition so many more problems.
Villa, Alves and someone like Vicente, who has had his injuries but seems to have lost his regular place to Silva.

I'd broadly agree with that Ace. Goals should be coming in abundence from both wings. Remember Arsenal at their peak with Ljungberg and Pires on either side?  That was one hell of a team.

Put simply, neither Pennant or Gonzalez have been good enough this season in terms of their overall productivity. For me, the priority position to make a signing to rectify the problems is left midfield - because we have a man who can score shed-loads from the right already in Gerrard.  I'd rather see him wide right, Alonso and Mascherano (or Sissoko) in the middle, and a world class player wide left than a world class player wide right, Alonso and Gerrard in the middle and Gonzalez wide left, with Masch / Sissoko on the bench.

Our goalscoring from midfield so far this season has been virtually non-existent.

Especially since Garcia has been injured. He guarantees at least 10 goals a season [he already had 6 before he got injured last month]
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Postby stmichael » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:03 pm

A.B. wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:I agree that we could do with a penalty box striker....(although i still think Kuyt can do that)

But its the wide areas that are stopping us ripping teams to shreds, our wide players are not in the same league as the likes of Robben, Ronaldo, Rosicky or Giggs, if our wide midfielders contributed more goals and were more positive the strikers would benefit so much.
I really think if we signed a top draw striker left winger and right winger we would be far more creative and give the opposition so many more problems.
Villa, Alves and someone like Vicente, who has had his injuries but seems to have lost his regular place to Silva.

I'd broadly agree with that Ace. Goals should be coming in abundence from both wings. Remember Arsenal at their peak with Ljungberg and Pires on either side?  That was one hell of a team.

Put simply, neither Pennant or Gonzalez have been good enough this season in terms of their overall productivity. For me, the priority position to make a signing to rectify the problems is left midfield - because we have a man who can score shed-loads from the right already in Gerrard.  I'd rather see him wide right, Alonso and Mascherano (or Sissoko) in the middle, and a world class player wide left than a world class player wide right, Alonso and Gerrard in the middle and Gonzalez wide left, with Masch / Sissoko on the bench.

Our goalscoring from midfield so far this season has been virtually non-existent.

Especially since Garcia has been injured. He guarantees at least 10 goals a season [he already had 6 before he got injured last month]

Yeah. Garcia will always score goals when he plays in a wide midfield position, even though I don't think he's naturally a midfielder. He's more of a second striker.

Our midfield is talented enough to score a lot more goals, but rarely ventures into the right areas. Sissoko still hasn't scored, Xabi doesn't score enough and Gerrard will never score as many goals playing CM as he would do roaming from the right hand side.

Our starting 11 has the talent and ability to be more prolific that's for sure. Bellamy scored 17 with mediocre midfield service, at Blackburn last season. Kuyt scored for fun in Holland. Alonso has the technical ability to score more than 5 a season, and Gerrard should ideally be on par with C. Ronaldo for goals. People slag off Crouch but his goals per games ratio in the last year is very very good. This season he's scored 13 goals from 22 starts.
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Postby Bad Bob » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:09 pm

I definitely agree with St. Mick, AB and Ace: we need more goalscoring and goal creating from the midfield.  With Stevie having an off year by his standards and with Garcia and Kewell injured, we're really suffering in terms of goals from midfield.

I would also mention that both United and Chelsea are more productive at scoring from set pieces (I don't have the stats but I'm sure they'd bear me out on this).  Vidic and Terry are a goal threat from corners.  Ronaldo and Lampard get a fair few of their goals from free kicks etc.  Our set pieces have been generally woeful the past few seasons...especially as Sami sees fewer minutes (Agger's got a nice strike from distance but doesn't offer the same aerial threat from set pieces).

As for our strikers missing chances, I'd say that while that's true in some recent games (Newcastle and Blackburn away, for instance) generally, they've converted at a decent rate.  More concerning to me is our lack of ideas when teams sit deep and try and shut up shop against us.  The strikers have no space in which to operate in those situations because we don't have the creativity in wide positions to stretch the defense and open holes in and around the the area.  A world-class winger who can take a fullback on, put in a decent cross, pick out teammates in good positions and chip in with 8-10 goals per season is a must buy this summer, IMO.
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Postby Scottbot » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:23 pm

Bad Bob wrote: With Stevie having an off year by his standards and with Garcia and Kewell injured, we're really suffering in terms of goals from midfield.

Nothing to do with Stevie playing a more disciplined role with more defensive responsibilities in centre-midfield?

Oooops, wrong thread :D
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Postby stmichael » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:39 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I would also mention that both United and Chelsea are more productive at scoring from set pieces (I don't have the stats but I'm sure they'd bear me out on this).  Vidic and Terry are a goal threat from corners.  Ronaldo and Lampard get a fair few of their goals from free kicks etc.  Our set pieces have been generally woeful the past few seasons...especially as Sami sees fewer minutes (Agger's got a nice strike from distance but doesn't offer the same aerial threat from set pieces).

Too true. It's not just about the delivery, it's the fact that we don't have anyone who attacks the ball from set pieces like a Terry or a Vidic does.

Look at the players in our starting line-up usually, we must have the tallest team in the league on average. I can't believe that someone like Momo or Carragher can't be taught to attack the ball if the delivery is right.
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Postby Marianne » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:39 pm

erm...i do think our forwards havent been scoring as much as they should be, but we do goals from elsewhere and our league position relfects that we do score.  We need someone with more class tho-like rooney for man u and henry for arsenal
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Postby Ade » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:08 pm

stmichael wrote:I said recently that stats are often manipulated and used out of context, but in such cases as these they do serve some constructive purpose. I don't believe, based on what I already know, and what I've found, that this magical "20 goal a season" striker is absoultely essential in reaching your targets. However, a team that overpowers, and beats it's opposition comfortably, definitely is.

This might surprise a few people here, but our strikers are doing almost identically to Utd's. Yet man utd have scored about 20 goals more. Our top League scorer is Kuyt with 9. Theirs is Rooney with 10. Next for us is Bellamy with 7. They have Saha on 8. Crouch is on 6 for us, with solskjaer also on 6.

Infact, Drogba, ironically, is far and away the biggest source of goals for his team of any of the top clubs, yet Chelsea are having their least productive season for three years. Arsenal have 2 games in hand over us, yet have scored 6 goals more, despite only being in fourth place. Even Reading have outscored us so far. Scoring's definitely not something we do freely yet. Though just attributing that to the strikers is somewhat unfair.

Now it's difficult to use such stats to prove any one thing for certain... however, one thing that really should stand out, as it did for me, is the inconsistency of it all.

That's where the answer lies in my opinion.

Drogba has scored 17 goals.... chelsea are in second....henry and van persie have scored 20 between them, arsenal are in fourth, man utd have scored shitloads, but their top scoring striker has only the same amount as ours...

None of it means a thing..... except this - the top teams are the ones that do well overall.

Man utd, out of all the clubs mentioned, are the only ones who's displays week in week out are constantly overwhelming opponents. Put simply, their goals are coming from everywhere. Ronaldo has chipped in with an amazing 15 so far, taking the tally for Utd's midfielders to 30 goals. More than double our paltry tally of 13. Add to that the decent contributions of rooney, saha, and solskjaer, and that's why you're looking at the probable league winners for 2007.

If Ronaldo is still at utd next season, I don't expect him to equal his goal scoring feats of this. But when he goes off the boil, Rooney has all the talent to make an equally impressive contribution, and if he's not firing on full cylinders, then scholes or saha are always likely to make something happen.

Put simply, if you rely on one aspect of your team to provide, you're always likely to hit a bump in the road when they don't step up. We need all round quality. Something we still don't have. And especially we need quality out on either flank.

In my opinion, our strikers are good quality, but the attention placed on them missing a chance or two is far greater because, as you say, there are less likely contributors elsewhere. Garcia being injured is obviously a massive blow for us because you could always guarantee him getting double figures in the goalscoring stakes every season.

I bet man utd have won a fair few games by one goal instead of two because rooney or saha's missed a sitter.

Kuyt or Bellamy do that and it's a draw or a loss unfortunately.

That's the difference between champions and also rans.

Liverpool

Crouch - 13 (6 prem, 1 league cup, 6 european/other)
Kuyt - 10 (9 prem, 1 league cup)
Bellamy - 8 (7 prem, 1 european/other)
Fowler - 5 (1 prem, 2 league cup, 2 european/other)

Total Goals From Strikers = 36 (23 prem)

Arsenal

Henry - 12 (10 prem, 1 FA, 1 Euro/other)
Van Persie - 13 (11 prem, 2 Euro/other)
Baptista - 7 (0 prem, 6 league cup, 1 euro/other)
Adebeyor - 10 (6 prem, 2 FA, 2 LEague Cup)

Total = 42 (27 prem)

Manchester United

Rooney - 12 (10 prem, 2 FA)
Saha - 12 (8 Prem, 4 Euro Other)
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer - 9 (6 Prem, 1 fa, 1 LC, 1 euro/other)
Larson - 2 (1 league, 1 FA)

total = 35 (25 prem)

Chelsea

Kalou - 3 (2 prem, 1 league cup)
drogba - 26 (17prem, 2 fa, 2 league cup, 5 euro/other)
Shevchenko - 10 (3 prem, 2 FA, 3LEague cup, 2Euro/other)

Total = 39 (22 prem)

I still firmly believe though that one clinical finisher with a bit of pace added to the squad would make a huge difference. I like Villa but ultimately Rafa will make his choice. If you add a creative wide man who can cross and score some goals it would be a massive addition. Man U have got 16 goals this year from their first pick right winger we have got 1. Just my opinion!

Good post, totally agree. I like Alonso, but he doesn't chip in with enough goals. Pennant never will, Gerrard can't bang in 23 every season, Sissoko won't get more than 3 or 4 a year, and neither will the Monster Masch.

Hence we need to stop over-emphasising the value of hardworking forwards and sign a goal machine
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Postby FRfanatic » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:09 pm

"Are our forwards good enough?"

I will let you know tomorrow night ??? :D
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Postby A.B. » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:11 pm

Ade wrote:
stmichael wrote:I said recently that stats are often manipulated and used out of context, but in such cases as these they do serve some constructive purpose. I don't believe, based on what I already know, and what I've found, that this magical "20 goal a season" striker is absoultely essential in reaching your targets. However, a team that overpowers, and beats it's opposition comfortably, definitely is.

This might surprise a few people here, but our strikers are doing almost identically to Utd's. Yet man utd have scored about 20 goals more. Our top League scorer is Kuyt with 9. Theirs is Rooney with 10. Next for us is Bellamy with 7. They have Saha on 8. Crouch is on 6 for us, with solskjaer also on 6.

Infact, Drogba, ironically, is far and away the biggest source of goals for his team of any of the top clubs, yet Chelsea are having their least productive season for three years. Arsenal have 2 games in hand over us, yet have scored 6 goals more, despite only being in fourth place. Even Reading have outscored us so far. Scoring's definitely not something we do freely yet. Though just attributing that to the strikers is somewhat unfair.

Now it's difficult to use such stats to prove any one thing for certain... however, one thing that really should stand out, as it did for me, is the inconsistency of it all.

That's where the answer lies in my opinion.

Drogba has scored 17 goals.... chelsea are in second....henry and van persie have scored 20 between them, arsenal are in fourth, man utd have scored shitloads, but their top scoring striker has only the same amount as ours...

None of it means a thing..... except this - the top teams are the ones that do well overall.

Man utd, out of all the clubs mentioned, are the only ones who's displays week in week out are constantly overwhelming opponents. Put simply, their goals are coming from everywhere. Ronaldo has chipped in with an amazing 15 so far, taking the tally for Utd's midfielders to 30 goals. More than double our paltry tally of 13. Add to that the decent contributions of rooney, saha, and solskjaer, and that's why you're looking at the probable league winners for 2007.

If Ronaldo is still at utd next season, I don't expect him to equal his goal scoring feats of this. But when he goes off the boil, Rooney has all the talent to make an equally impressive contribution, and if he's not firing on full cylinders, then scholes or saha are always likely to make something happen.

Put simply, if you rely on one aspect of your team to provide, you're always likely to hit a bump in the road when they don't step up. We need all round quality. Something we still don't have. And especially we need quality out on either flank.

In my opinion, our strikers are good quality, but the attention placed on them missing a chance or two is far greater because, as you say, there are less likely contributors elsewhere. Garcia being injured is obviously a massive blow for us because you could always guarantee him getting double figures in the goalscoring stakes every season.

I bet man utd have won a fair few games by one goal instead of two because rooney or saha's missed a sitter.

Kuyt or Bellamy do that and it's a draw or a loss unfortunately.

That's the difference between champions and also rans.

Liverpool

Crouch - 13 (6 prem, 1 league cup, 6 european/other)
Kuyt - 10 (9 prem, 1 league cup)
Bellamy - 8 (7 prem, 1 european/other)
Fowler - 5 (1 prem, 2 league cup, 2 european/other)

Total Goals From Strikers = 36 (23 prem)

Arsenal

Henry - 12 (10 prem, 1 FA, 1 Euro/other)
Van Persie - 13 (11 prem, 2 Euro/other)
Baptista - 7 (0 prem, 6 league cup, 1 euro/other)
Adebeyor - 10 (6 prem, 2 FA, 2 LEague Cup)

Total = 42 (27 prem)

Manchester United

Rooney - 12 (10 prem, 2 FA)
Saha - 12 (8 Prem, 4 Euro Other)
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer - 9 (6 Prem, 1 fa, 1 LC, 1 euro/other)
Larson - 2 (1 league, 1 FA)

total = 35 (25 prem)

Chelsea

Kalou - 3 (2 prem, 1 league cup)
drogba - 26 (17prem, 2 fa, 2 league cup, 5 euro/other)
Shevchenko - 10 (3 prem, 2 FA, 3LEague cup, 2Euro/other)

Total = 39 (22 prem)

I still firmly believe though that one clinical finisher with a bit of pace added to the squad would make a huge difference. I like Villa but ultimately Rafa will make his choice. If you add a creative wide man who can cross and score some goals it would be a massive addition. Man U have got 16 goals this year from their first pick right winger we have got 1. Just my opinion!

Good post, totally agree. I like Alonso, but he doesn't chip in with enough goals. Pennant never will, Gerrard can't bang in 23 every season, Sissoko won't get more than 3 or 4 a year, and neither will the Monster Masch.

Hence we need to stop over-emphasising the value of hardworking forwards and sign a goal machine

The problem with that it's just one goal-machine. When that goal-machine doesn't play we're back to square one.

The problem is our players aren't scoring enough goals. Not just strikers, but everyone in general.

Chelsea's and Man Utd's defenders chip in with the goals.

Ours don't do enough of that. Carragher has scored once this season and probably wont score for another 14 years. Finnan, as much as I love his attitude,commitment, and the fact that he's improved when going forwards, he still has only scored one goal since he's signed with us.

Alonso is capable of scoring more and should score more if possible. The problem is that we don't have wingers who offer goal threat. Where as Man Utd and Chelsea[used to] do.

We need to do more than just sign one particular player.
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Postby Ola Mr Benitez » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:17 pm

Maybe I should re-write this a little?  I think some people have made some really good points, especially St Mike.  I realise that in the modern game it is just as important for the midfield and even defence to chip in with a good few goals, but for me it is the forward line that needs to get the majority of goals.

That said, one of the points I was trying to make in the original post is the fact that every game (apart from the defeat at Old Trafford) we have so many attempts on goal it seems incredible that we do not score.

It seems to take our current line up, 10 chances to score 1 goal, where in the old days of Michael Owen, he was lucky to get 3 chances all game, playing in a negative counter attacking team, yet seemed to always get his fair share of Premiership goals.

Im not great at pulling stats together, but it would be really interesting to see what our goals per attempt is, compared to the other big teams.
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Postby account deleted by request » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:28 pm

While our strikers aren't exactly setting the league on fire, I think the chances they are getting arnt often clear cut openings. To be successful we also need more goals from the rest of the team Pennant, Gonzales, Gerrard etc havent scored enough this season. I don't like to even think this, but have we also missed Cisse's goals this season? Gerrard and Cisse scored 40+ goals between them last season.
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Postby Rafa D » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:26 pm

I was about to start a thread a few days ago that has something to do with this. I actually got about half way through, read it and realised I was waffling on quite a bit so I will have another go.

Recent News suggests that Voronin has signed a pre-contract agreement to play for us next year. When I first heard this my first thought was of initial surprise. He is 27 years of age and his 6 goals is not exactly setting the Bundesliga on fire at the moment. However his signing did get me thinking about the reasoning Rafa would have behind such a surprising transfer.

  At Liverpool we have been blessed with brilliant forwards over the years. The most recent are Rush, Fowler and Owen. These 3 strikers would virtually guarantee us goals in the 20+ bracket. How we failed to win a Premiership in the 90's with these strikers all on the books never ceases to amaze me. Rafa's reign unfortunately co-incided with the departure of arguably our best ever forward Micheal Owen. We can all think now what might have been and what could of happened but its not worth it, Rafa came in and Owen left.

  Rafa "inherited" our record buy Dibs Cisse, Milan Baros and little else in the striking department. Our top scorer that year was either Garcia or Gerrard with a paltry 13 goals. I know Milan was in double figures but not many poss . 10 or 11 goals and Cisse was injured for the majority of the season. So because of the little striking options and the servere injuries we had that year, it is not worth analysing.

However the years after makes far more interesting points to consider about our strikers.

Crouch, Cisse, Morientes, Fowler, Kuyt and Bellamy are all strikers of a high quality. Look at Morientes for example. He is a legend in Spain, much like our God here. His record is phenomonal and he is truly a world class striker. He regularly broke the 20 goal a season barrier for Real Madrid and also for Monaco on loan. When we signed him we had some player on our hands. However he never seemed to quite cut it in a red shirt. In 51 games for us, he scored a paltry 12 goals. He has scored that amount in 20 games for Valencia already this season. Some point to the culture clash, the different styles of the Premiership. Maybe.

Cisse. Came here with a big fee and a big reputation. He scored goals for fun in Ligue 1 in France and won the golden boot 2 years on the bounce. It seemed like we were buying goals. However, many times he failed to produce. He may not be the most gifted player technically, but he did have electric pace and must of had something about him to score as often as he did, and is now doing again in the French Ligue. He scored 9 goals in 33 league games for us last year. 9. Some will point to Rafa's reluctance to play him up front. Maybe.

Dirk Kuyt. "He's a 20/20 player" according to Martin Jol who chased him so feverently in the summer before Dirk turned them down and became a legend in the making at Anfield. 20 goals and 20 assists, according to Jol. His record in Holland is amazing. The last 3 years there for are Dirk read  25 goals, 36 goals, and 22 goals. Thats more impressive than the famous horse faced cunt that played down the road for the Scum. Since he has been here, he has shown us all what he can do and we are very pleased with what he has done. His reading of the game is brilliant, his movement top notch and he is really starting to get to grips with the English football. His 9 league goals in 21 appearances don't read too bad to be honest and surprised me a little. However still not as impressive as his Dutch goal record. "Yeh buts thats because the Dutch Leagues a piece of piss". Maybe.

  I could do this about the other strikers, Crouch and Bellamy but I won't. Crouch and Bellamy both scored goals regularly and in high numbers before they became one of us. All our strikers over the past 2 years that have been brought in, have scored goals, and lots of them. However the frequency of there goals seemed to have dried up when they pulled on that famous red shirt, why?

The quality of our league? the different culture? Maybe. But in my mind, its all down to tactics. Some of you won't like this but Rafa's tactics are not set out to be kind to strikers. He likes compact teams, hard working teams, and tracking back teams and the strikers our part of this team. Like he said, he prefers the goals to come from all over the pitch. Look at his Valencia blueprint. His strikers there were not prolific, but they won the league playing the way he wants to play.

  Look at how we set out defending corners for example. Every one of our players are in our box defending. Compare that to United who leave at least one player on the counter or Mourinho who sometimes has the cheek and the balls to leave 3 players on the half way line!

We went on a record breaking run of clean sheets last year. The defence got all the plaudits, but look a little deeper. Look at how much Crouch, Mori and Dibs helped out in defence and the ground they covered tracking back etc. Our whole team contributed to that amazing run and Rafa and Gerrard were very keen to point that out in interviews.

Also the rotation policy of Rafa is least beneficial to the strikers. More often than not, the strikers are probably the most rotated part of the team. Its a common known fact, strikers need games to get into a ryhthm. Aldo will tell you this time and time again on match day on 96.7. The stats don't reflect this.

It makes me realise why Rafa has gone for a player with Voronins attributes. He's hardworking, and a team player.

Rafa likes to defend from the front line for better or worse. The strikers natural attacking instinct has to be curbed for the good of the team - it could also be the reason why the less agile, but more instinctive finisher Robbie Fowler has had so little playing time this year. Some might not be happy with it, but I trust Rafa knows what he is doing, and has the medals to go with it. So I'd lay off the strikers to be honest, there all out  there doing their bit for the team and at the end of the the day thats what matters most.

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Postby Bad Bob » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:02 pm

Rafa-Dodd wrote:I was about to start a thread a few days ago that has something to do with this. I actually got about half way through, read it and realised I was waffling on quite a bit so I will have another go.

Recent News suggests that Voronin has signed a pre-contract agreement to play for us next year. When I first heard this my first thought was of initial surprise. He is 27 years of age and his 6 goals is not exactly setting the Bundesliga on fire at the moment. However his signing did get me thinking about the reasoning Rafa would have behind such a surprising transfer.

  At Liverpool we have been blessed with brilliant forwards over the years. The most recent are Rush, Fowler and Owen. These 3 strikers would virtually guarantee us goals in the 20+ bracket. How we failed to win a Premiership in the 90's with these strikers all on the books never ceases to amaze me. Rafa's reign unfortunately co-incided with the departure of arguably our best ever forward Micheal Owen. We can all think now what might have been and what could of happened but its not worth it, Rafa came in and Owen left.

  Rafa "inherited" our record buy Dibs Cisse, Milan Baros and little else in the striking department. Our top scorer that year was either Garcia or Gerrard with a paltry 13 goals. I know Milan was in double figures but not many poss . 10 or 11 goals and Cisse was injured for the majority of the season. So because of the little striking options and the servere injuries we had that year, it is not worth analysing.

However the years after makes far more interesting points to consider about our strikers.

Crouch, Cisse, Morientes, Fowler, Kuyt and Bellamy are all strikers of a high quality. Look at Morientes for example. He is a legend in Spain, much like our God here. His record is phenomonal and he is truly a world class striker. He regularly broke the 20 goal a season barrier for Real Madrid and also for Monaco on loan. When we signed him we had some player on our hands. However he never seemed to quite cut it in a red shirt. In 51 games for us, he scored a paltry 12 goals. He has scored that amount in 20 games for Valencia already this season. Some point to the culture clash, the different styles of the Premiership. Maybe.

Cisse. Came here with a big fee and a big reputation. He scored goals for fun in Ligue 1 in France and won the golden boot 2 years on the bounce. It seemed like we were buying goals. However, many times he failed to produce. He may not be the most gifted player technically, but he did have electric pace and must of had something about him to score as often as he did, and is now doing again in the French Ligue. He scored 9 goals in 33 league games for us last year. 9. Some will point to Rafa's reluctance to play him up front. Maybe.

Dirk Kuyt. "He's a 20/20 player" according to Martin Jol who chased him so feverently in the summer before Dirk turned them down and became a legend in the making at Anfield. 20 goals and 20 assists, according to Jol. His record in Holland is amazing. The last 3 years there for are Dirk read  25 goals, 36 goals, and 22 goals. Thats more impressive than the famous horse faced cunt that played down the road for the Scum. Since he has been here, he has shown us all what he can do and we are very pleased with what he has done. His reading of the game is brilliant, his movement top notch and he is really starting to get to grips with the English football. His 9 league goals in 21 appearances don't read too bad to be honest and surprised me a little. However still not as impressive as his Dutch goal record. "Yeh buts thats because the Dutch Leagues a piece of piss". Maybe.

  I could do this about the other strikers, Crouch and Bellamy but I won't. Crouch and Bellamy both scored goals regularly and in high numbers before they became one of us. All our strikers over the past 2 years that have been brought in, have scored goals, and lots of them. However the frequency of there goals seemed to have dried up when they pulled on that famous red shirt, why?

The quality of our league? the different culture? Maybe. But in my mind, its all down to tactics. Some of you won't like this but Rafa's tactics are not set out to be kind to strikers. He likes compact teams, hard working teams, and tracking back teams and the strikers our part of this team. Like he said, he prefers the goals to come from all over the pitch. Look at his Valencia blueprint. His strikers there were not prolific, but they won the league playing the way he wants to play.

  Look at how we set out defending corners for example. Every one of our players are in our box defending. Compare that to United who leave at least one player on the counter or Mourinho who sometimes has the cheek and the balls to leave 3 players on the half way line!

We went on a record breaking run of clean sheets last year. The defence got all the plaudits, but look a little deeper. Look at how much Crouch, Mori and Dibs helped out in defence and the ground they covered tracking back etc. Our whole team contributed to that amazing run and Rafa and Gerrard were very keen to point that out in interviews.

Also the rotation policy of Rafa is least beneficial to the strikers. More often than not, the strikers are probably the most rotated part of the team. Its a common known fact, strikers need games to get into a ryhthm. Aldo will tell you this time and time again on match day on 96.7. The stats don't reflect this.

It makes me realise why Rafa has gone for a player with Voronins attributes. He's hardworking, and a team player.

Rafa likes to defend from the front line for better or worse. The strikers natural attacking instinct has to be curbed for the good of the team - it could also be the reason why the less agile, but more instinctive finisher Robbie Fowler has had so little playing time this year. Some might not be happy with it, but I trust Rafa knows what he is doing, and has the medals to go with it. So I'd lay off the strikers to be honest, there all out  there doing their bit for the team and at the end of the the day thats what matters most.

The Team.

Some sound points there, mate.  I think tactics do have a lot to do with our strikers' "low" goal tally and I think you are spot on about why Fowler rarely gets a game in Rafa's system.  Our strikers are asked to drop deep, defend from the front and cover a lot of territory (not Fowler's forte).  This means that we rarely have strikers flooding the area and, as such, we aren't going to create a lot of poacher's goals--especially because our wingers so rarely get beyond the fullbacks and create chances for our strikers in the six-yard box.

From a goal-scoring perspective we are at our most prolific when we play a team that tries to get forward and who looks to defend a high line (e.g. Wigan or Fulham in December).  This approach gives Bellamy, especially, the space to get in behind the centrebacks with his pace.  In this regard, he's doing pretty much what Cisse did last season (remember the West Brom game?), with the difference being that he works harder than Cisse did to pressurize defenders when they are in possession.

When teams sit deep and invite us onto them, though, we really struggle to carve out clear-cut chances, as Saint points out.  More often than not, we look to Crouch for knock-downs and flick-ons in those circumstances, or we take potshots from distance. 

What I'd love to see more of in these situations are clever one-twos at the edge of the area.  Crouch and Gerrard showed they are capable of this last season.  Garcia and Crouch have played some lovely stuff this season (West Ham at home, for instance) and Kuyt and Gerrard combined nicely earlier in the season as well.  Of course, to make this approach work, there needs to be more space to operate--something that's only going to happen if the wide players are doing their job of stretching the play down the flanks.  Pennant, Gonzales and the other various stand-ins need to do a better job of getting to the byline, thereby dragging defenders away from the area and opening up channels for cut-backs and reverse balls.  If we can achieve better movement across the width of the pitch in the final third and if we can do better to pick out teammates as the spaces open up, we'll have a much better shot of breaking even the most negative teams down and creating clear-cut goal-scoring chances.
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Postby Bad Bob » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:16 pm

Ola Mr Benitez wrote:Maybe I should re-write this a little?  I think some people have made some really good points, especially St Mike.  I realise that in the modern game it is just as important for the midfield and even defence to chip in with a good few goals, but for me it is the forward line that needs to get the majority of goals.

That said, one of the points I was trying to make in the original post is the fact that every game (apart from the defeat at Old Trafford) we have so many attempts on goal it seems incredible that we do not score.

It seems to take our current line up, 10 chances to score 1 goal, where in the old days of Michael Owen, he was lucky to get 3 chances all game, playing in a negative counter attacking team, yet seemed to always get his fair share of Premiership goals.

Im not great at pulling stats together, but it would be really interesting to see what our goals per attempt is, compared to the other big teams.

Since you asked, here's how we stack up against the rest of the "Big Four" (all stats courtesy of soccernet)...

All Competitions

(1) Arsenal: 1 goal for every 3.73 shots on goal (and 1 goal for every 8.20 shots full stop)

(2) Chelsea: 1 goal/3.84 s.o.g. (1 goal/8.44 shots)

(3) Man U: 1 goal/4.28 s.o.g. (1 goal/8.86 shots)

(4) Liverpool: 1 goal/4.73 s.o.g. (1 goal/10.77 shots)

Premiership Only

(1) Man U: 1 goal/4.03 s.o.g. (1 goal/7.97 shots)

(2) Arsenal: 1 goal/4.29 s.o.g. (1 goal/8.76 shots)

(3) Chelsea: 1 goal/4.67 s.o.g. (1 goal/10.12 shots)

(4) Liverpool: 1 goal/5.72 s.o.g. (1 goal/11.9 shots)


---------------------
Take these stats with the usual grain of salt but I think it makes for interesting reading.  In the Premiership, anyway, we certainly require more attempts to score than our primary competitors.
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