Liverpool FC Forum

by **Paul C** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:28 pm

7_Kewell wrote:Rafa will have to make some major culls to the squad and the following I would all ship out ASAP

Zenden
Hyypia
Dudek
Fowler
Gonzalez
Aurelio
Pennant

These players are either past it…or aren’t ever going to make it at the level we require. Hopefully with the new cash, Rafa will bite the bullet and bring in at least 2 wingers.

You forgot Kewell off that list mate :;):

by **stmichael** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:30 pm

bigmick wrote:It's a good question and a good topic. When you look at what Man U have done this season (which is probably winning the league from a starting position at the end of last season almost identical to ourselves) you have to say we have underperformed in comparison.
They gave Van Nistelroy the elbow and brought in Michael Carrick, and while the return of the excellent Scholes has been significant the feeling persists that our first eleven is very close to being the equal of theirs. The difference is probably in that they actually play their best eleven or nearly all of it much more often than we do ours, and that their really big players have performed consistently at somewhere near the top of their game. Ronaldo by all accounts has had a wonderful season and while being fitful, Rooneys abundance of natural talent will always have a massive influence when he is playing in a very average Premiership. Vidic appears to have come on a bundle and even Evra seems to be doing a job, while Saha has surpassed what most of us thought he was capable of. Overall though, we all know they are by no means a great team just simply the best of a pretty ordinary bunch and My hunch is we could and should be a lot closer to them.

So what went wrong for us? Obviously giving everybody a seven or eight point start in the first three weeks of the season was suicide, and without wanting to revisit the whole debate I hope we have finally learnt our lesson as far as that is concerned.
One or two of our signings haven't really worked out, and none of them have absolutely uprooted trees. Gonzales certainly and Pennant probably are in the first category, while even possibly Kuyt and certainly Bellamy have improving to do if they are to convince they belong in a Championship winning squad.
Our biggest players, Gerrard and Alonso haven't really had great seasons either. It may be due to fatigue, personal problems or whatever but neither will look back on this season with fondness, with the feeling that they did themselves justice.
And what of our manager? Well I think he is a brilliant football man and I'm glad we have him. He will know himself however that he has not had his best year either. Too many mistakes in selection and over-rotation have hindered our progress, while it appears that his performance in the transfer market this close season was slightly below par based on his excellence in the past. Like everybody else he needs to up his game for next season.

What to do? Well firstly and formostly we need more than two really big players. I know we have lots of good players BTW but I am talking about fellas who opposition fans would accept as being probably the best or almost the best in their position. You could I guess make a case for Carragher ut beyond that I think we would be dreaming a bit. This will either happen because one of our existing players makes the step up (and FWIW Kuyt looks the mostlikely option to me) or by buying big.
Secondly we need to stop handicapping ourselves by not picking anywhere near our strongest team on too many occasions.
Thirdly we need to take a cold hard look at our existing squad and cull out any deadwood. There are many debateable options but for my money the jury has surely returned a verdict on Bolo Zenden (it now seems incredible that we chose to play him in central midfield when we played Arsenal away) and it is high time that players such as him were shown the door.

Long post but that's my opinion. Feck the cups, we should be seven or eight points higher in the league than we are in my view.

Good post Bigmick.

Personally, my take on the situation is this.

First and foremost, we are progessing, despite our points total being lower than last season, several new players have been bedded in and I personally think you can see the team developing now. In his time here Rafa has won 2 major trophies, they cannot be discredited. The argument does not stand "what if he hadn't won them?" Because he has won them, perhaps the line between success and failure is just as thin as the victories on those two matches but facts speak for themselves, the European Cup was brought back to Anfield and that is a phenomonal achievement for anyone.

There are weaknesses, definately, hence why we're 16 points behind the leaders. You highlighted a serious flaw that we aren't the best side at coming back from a goal down, especially away from home. Yes I know we did it against AC Milan and West Ham in the most vital of circumstances, but I think we can stand in agreement that at least as far as the league is concerned, when we go a goal behind we don't normally win matches, and we do often lose them. For some reason the heads drop, our game plan is lost and we don't know what to do with ourselves, the reasoning behind that I don't know, it baffles me to be honest.

The budget argument should not be ignored. When you look at how much Chelsea and the Mancs have spent in recent years it dosen't compare with what we've spent. I think we have a few players who aren't really good enough to play for Liverpool. I think, if we're honest, Pennant for example is never going to make it as a regular in a title winning side. Yes he does his best, his best is often good, but in my opinion not consistently good enough. Now had we had the money which we hopefully have now back in the summer, I don't think Rafa would have signed Pennant, I think he'd have signed a better quality player, probably Alves. There are a few examples of this, running throughout the squad and I really think that with a bit of money behind him the all round quality of the squad will be improved. I think, with a bit of money you can highlight one or two current regulars who will no longer be regulars when some money is spent on players to replace them, Rafa is no mug and whilst I have sentimentality for the effort and commitment of some players, I fully expect Rafa to do the necessary and replace anyone that he thinks he can improve upon within the boundaries of common sense and his budget. Money is not the only thing which wins you titles, but when the mancs are splashing out 30 million on Rooney for example, we are priced out of the market for the very top players. Whilst I think the likes of Pennant work and do their best, you can't honestly tell me that he's up there with Ronaldo or Robben? And, in accordance with that, he cost significantly less. Money is of course not the supreme barrometer to measure a player's ability, there are over-priced flops to be found, ala Shevchenko, or there are world class talents lurking around for contextually miniscule amounts, for example our very own Sami Hyypia. But, generally speaking, the very best players tend to cost a lot of money, whilst we're still being forced to go for second, more competitively priced options, we will always be at a disadvantage to the mancs and chelsea, hopefully that is now a situation which has changed.

How long does he have? In my opinion, as long as I can see signs of improvement and development season upon season then he has as long as it takes. Under Houllier's reign we saw consistent improvement for several years and then an alarming and rapid decline, we are not at that stage now so I think comparison's with Houllier are wide of the mark. The points total might not show it but I believe that we're getting ever closer to building a side which will win the title, especially with the new investment now in place.

by **7_Kewell** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:20 pm

First and foremost, we are progessing, despite our points total being lower than last season, several new players have been bedded in and I personally think you can see the team developing now.

thing is...this has been the argument (or excuse) for our lack of title challenge for YEARS now...don't get me wrong, i have full faith in Rafa as our manager...but(in my opinion) we're not any closer to winning the Prem than we were last year.

If we lose to Barca in the Champions league....our season is over bar Champions league qualification.

Under Houllier's reign we saw consistent improvement for several years and then an alarming and rapid decline,

Ironically (and i might get abused for this) Houllier was in a similar position to rafa is now...he had a team which would finish in the top 3-4 comfortably and he recognised that he needed to make a step up with some big money signings....Rafa is going to be in the same position this summer and it could also be a gamble, because if he signs 3-4 key players...and they turn out pap, then the same thing will happen again.

maybe i'm being negative...but thats just how i see it.

by **heimdall** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:00 pm

I also can't wait for this season to be finished as far as the league in concerned but there is still the Champions league and i have a funny feeling about that one, the same I had in 2005 :cool:

. If and it is a big if we can get past Barcelona then I think we have every chance of winning it.

As far as the league and cups I am dissapointed both in the players and Rafa. I'm not going to go on another Rafa bashing thing but I am still not 100% convinced about him. I will give him one more season with the big budget to see if he can prove me wrong, in my opinion we are not far away from being good enough to win the league. We need one top class striker like Henry, and two top class wingers, plus maybe a left and right defense but that isn't essential. I just hope Rafa stops being so damned stubborn and also please stop with the rotation already!!!

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:27 pm

Why does this board attract retards?

by **red37** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:40 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:Why does this board attract retards?

he's no retard Lando...look, thats almost genius that formula above! genius i tells yer :nod

'Dark matter for the daft' explained coherently in one fell swoop....

and to think they spend billions developing these kind of secrets over at C.E.R.N - This fella waltzes in and nails it first go :wwww

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:30 am

red37 wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Why does this board attract retards?

he's no retard Lando...look, thats almost genius that formula above! genius i tells yer 'Dark matter for the daft' explained coherently in one fell swoop....

and to think they spend billions developing these kind of secrets over at C.E.R.N - This fella waltzes in and nails it first go

And yet...

He STILL gets banned.

I think we can confidently place old Vic in the "put enough chimps in a room with a typewriter and they'll produce Shakespeare" catagory.

The obvious difference being that chimps are likable.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:59 am

Chimps with typewriters account for roughly 90% of ITV's programming.

by **A.B.** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:14 am

Not happy or angered about the season, and I'm not particularly waiting for the season to end like some others. As soon as this season ends we'll go to months and months of speculation and stupidity being reported by the press.

1. I didn't believe that we would win the league, however I expected us to push for the title. That didn't happen, my prediction was a 2nd or 3rd place finish.

2. I am however bitterly disappointed that we've been knocked out of the FA Cup so early and the Carling Cup. We have the Champions League left, but let's face it it's not looking all that good.

It's not that bad and that good either, we've seen worse league wise.

by **eds** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:03 am

I am gutted with this season.

I was one of the few supporters that thought we would actually go all the way this season and win the EPL.

With the additions of Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzo I thought we would have considerable ammunition to win week-in week-out. But sadly this has not been the case.

Rafa will need to get it right next year because if he doesn't I am afraid his time will be up at Liverpool. Four years is enough time in my eyes to mount a serious title challenge, which has still not happened or has looked like happening.

:down:

by **A.B.** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:21 am

eds wrote:I am gutted with this season.

I was one of the few supporters that thought we would actually go all the way this season and win the EPL.

With the additions of Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzo I thought we would have considerable ammunition to win week-in week-out. But sadly this has not been the case.

Rafa will need to get it right next year because if he doesn't I am afraid his time will be up at Liverpool. Four years is enough time in my eyes to mount a serious title challenge, which has still not happened or has looked like happening.

And bring in who? Rafa should stay here for at least three more years.

If we don't get the job done with Rafa, then we won't get it done with anyone else in the near future.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:51 am

A.B. wrote:
eds wrote:I am gutted with this season.

I was one of the few supporters that thought we would actually go all the way this season and win the EPL.

With the additions of Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzo I thought we would have considerable ammunition to win week-in week-out. But sadly this has not been the case.

Rafa will need to get it right next year because if he doesn't I am afraid his time will be up at Liverpool. Four years is enough time in my eyes to mount a serious title challenge, which has still not happened or has looked like happening.

And bring in who? Rafa should stay here for at least three more years.

If we don't get the job done with Rafa, then we won't get it done with anyone else in the near future.

that doesnt quite make sense mate, if rafa cant win the title then we need to get a manager who can. you seem to be suggesting that only rafa is good enough to win us the title when he proved the last 3 years that he isnt good enough by not winning it.

however that could change

by **eds** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:40 am

A.B. wrote:
eds wrote:I am gutted with this season.

I was one of the few supporters that thought we would actually go all the way this season and win the EPL.

With the additions of Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzo I thought we would have considerable ammunition to win week-in week-out. But sadly this has not been the case.

Rafa will need to get it right next year because if he doesn't I am afraid his time will be up at Liverpool. Four years is enough time in my eyes to mount a serious title challenge, which has still not happened or has looked like happening.

And bring in who? Rafa should stay here for at least three more years.

If we don't get the job done with Rafa, then we won't get it done with anyone else in the near future.

Someone that can farkin challenge for the title, that's who!

Look at Chelsea a few years back, Raineri finished 2nd and the Russian was ruthless, in came Maureen. He knew exactly what was required and delivered. Yes, he almost had a bottomless pit of money, but as much as we all despise the cretin, HE GOT THE JOB DONE by managing the prima-donnas unlike Real Madrid! And you want to sit back and give Rafa six-seven years to deliver! That is farkin madness!

With the money we have from the take-over Rafa will have no excuses next season on which players he brings in. He will be the only manager in the league that will have the following:

1. Money
2. The history and tradition of "Liverpool Football Club"
3. A new 'state of the art' stadium in the pipelines

to bring in ANY football player in the world to this club.

Chelsea can compete with us on Number 1. United can on Number 2 and Arsenal on Number 3 but none of them can compete on all three things combined.

As for thinking Rafa is the be-all-and-end-all of this club stop sprouting rubbish! The club is bigger than any player or manager and we WILL continue winning titles in the future, even once the likes of Benitez & Gerrard have called it a day.

:no

by **woof woof !** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:39 pm

Just looking at the table since the Newcastle game . With Arsenal and Bolton breathing down our necks ,further failure in whats left of our season could very well see us failing to qualify for next seasons CL .I'm more concerned than happy .

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:48 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Just looking at the table since the Newcastle game . With Arsenal and Bolton breathing down our necks ,further failure in whats left of our season could very well see us failing to qualify for next seasons CL .I'm more concerned than happy .

Bolton have still got to go to Old Trafford, Emirates, Stamford Bridge and White hart lane.... so we'll be fine!

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