Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:52 am

Looking at the league table would currently suggest this season is going to possibly go down to a two horse race. I know there is still a long way to go and all but still.

I'm just going to go back to the summer here, because I think I started a topic on the lines of ' An important summer for Benitez '. In which I meant his transfer dealings, if they were spot on we may well of found ourselves where ManU are now. Now come the end of last season we were a well oiled machine, it was still clear the team needed to be been bolstered with a new striker, RM and a RB as cover for Finnan.

We got our striker, Kuyt who's donig well, we got our RM who isnt doing so well. And we didnt get cover for Finnan. Three key areas that needed adressing, and really up until now one of those positions have been adressed, Kuyt, backed up by Bellamy.

Rafa got Aurelio on a free brought in the young Palletta and Gonzalez arrived to. Again Mark Gonzalez was needed as our very own 'sicknote' Harry Kewell has been sidelined. But the thing is Rafa has tried to make room in every other game for all of those players except Palletta. And none of them except Kuyt have had much luck, therefore with these additions and under-achieving performances its seems to me.

1) Rafa may have got it wrong in the transfer market.

2) He's tampered with a very good team from last year so much that its all out of sink now. The phrase ' if it aint broke dont fix 'it comes to mind.

The team did need fine tuning with a couple of players, but not the drastic overhaul that Rafa has to of done, with players and positions. I dont think its Rafa's tactics that are making the team, languish in seventh position but his players, they dont seem to of had much impact or enough ability to pull us up the table. The two positions in which we have struggled this season are RM & LM, but positions Rafa filled in during the summer and both Gonzalez & Pennant have looked distinctly average, and really at the moment no improvement has been succesfully made their.

And going back to the league table, it looks as though we could of capatilised alot on the 'poor form' shown generally in the league this year (points wise) but we have seemed to of been caught up in that too rather than pushing on from last season.

This is a very much of a 'what if ' kinda post............... but what if ?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:18 am

Well as you've said in another thread - Gerrard put paid to any plans of "no-change" with his disgruntled attitude to playing anywhere but central midfield.

It seems that the only signign that could turn out to be a total failure is Pennant. It's not an ability issue, it's an application one. The lad has nothing by way of a heart.

Kuyt is already a success IMO, Gonzalez is younger than Agger (who was afforded a season to bed in), Paletta is only 20, and Bellamy cannot be fairly judged when he's had the assault charge hanging over him.

To be perfectly honest, it's all too easy to blame th enew players. It;s the established ones who have been poor.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:22 am

I'm not trying to point the finger at the players, but more so at Rafa who brought them and tinkered with an already sound team.

And the reason for the established ones being so poor is probably down to the WC and the the overhaul Rafa has done since the summer.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:24 am

Bamaga man wrote:I'm not trying to point the finger at the players, but more so at Rafa who brought them and tinkered with an already sound team.

But as you said - we NEEDED players - players Rafa has bought.

A right winger, a left winger, a CB and 2 strikers.

The only position he couldn't fill was rightback.

by **wee_boi888** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:16 am

A lot of our changes have happened because we had to.
We lost two strikers in Nando and Cisse - both most fans were happy to see this
We had to start blooding Agger sooner or later - once again this has been discussed a necessity lately
Central midfield...injuries
Left wing-injury to Kewell means speedy was thrown at the deep end pretty early
Right Wing - Pennant...well it seems he is the only one with no excuse. Though Stevie had arguably his best season last time around at right wing, everyone was screaming for him to be in the centre and now we have pennant there.

It is of my oppinion that Rafa wanted to blood Agger this season and has done so, whilst slowly bringing in Speedy and Pennant used for rotation when resting one of the 3 centre mids.

Though I agree with Bamaga that the cover for finnan must be an issue - I guess Lucas Neil is his 'possibility'

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:06 am

Well Blackburn have resigned themselves to the sale of Lucas Neill - apparantly it's just a matter of when.

I would suggest to them that they accept a nominal fee from us in Jan rather than wait until the Summer when he will be a free agent.

I wish to make it clear that I have no desire to see Neill at LFC.

It's just that Rafa seems intent on the thug.

Linkypoos

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:00 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:It's just that Rafa seems intent on the thug.

is he a thug mate or is it just because he injured our players that we see him that way, i think he is mostly just a tough tackler who if he was playing for us already we would just form that opinion, of a tough tackling, no nonsense player.

we have seen gerrard make some outrages tackles but we dont castigate him because its him, its the same with bellamy, if he wasnt a liverpool player now we would all be hoping he got sent down recently.

i say give neill a chance to prove himself

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:52 pm

Bamaga man wrote:Looking at the league table would currently suggest this season is going to possibly go down to a two horse race. I know there is still a long way to go and all but still.

I'm just going to go back to the summer here, because I think I started a topic on the lines of ' An important summer for Benitez '. In which I meant his transfer dealings, if they were spot on we may well of found ourselves where ManU are now. Now come the end of last season we were a well oiled machine, it was still clear the team needed to be been bolstered with a new striker, RM and a RB as cover for Finnan.

We got our striker, Kuyt who's donig well, we got our RM who isnt doing so well. And we didnt get cover for Finnan. Three key areas that needed adressing, and really up until now one of those positions have been adressed, Kuyt, backed up by Bellamy.

Rafa got Aurelio on a free brought in the young Palletta and Gonzalez arrived to. Again Mark Gonzalez was needed as our very own 'sicknote' Harry Kewell has been sidelined. But the thing is Rafa has tried to make room in every other game for all of those players except Palletta. And none of them except Kuyt have had much luck, therefore with these additions and under-achieving performances its seems to me.

1) Rafa may have got it wrong in the transfer market.

2) He's tampered with a very good team from last year so much that its all out of sink now. The phrase ' if it aint broke dont fix 'it comes to mind.

The team did need fine tuning with a couple of players, but not the drastic overhaul that Rafa has to of done, with players and positions. I dont think its Rafa's tactics that are making the team, languish in seventh position but his players, they dont seem to of had much impact or enough ability to pull us up the table. The two positions in which we have struggled this season are RM & LM, but positions Rafa filled in during the summer and both Gonzalez & Pennant have looked distinctly average, and really at the moment no improvement has been succesfully made their.

And going back to the league table, it looks as though we could of capatilised alot on the 'poor form' shown generally in the league this year (points wise) but we have seemed to of been caught up in that too rather than pushing on from last season.

This is a very much of a 'what if ' kinda post............... but what if ?

I would suggest that injuries and the fixture list has also played a role in our poor season to date. Yes, Rafa has over-rotated at times--even I'll admit that--but a lot of his changes were in response to injuries. Riise was out for two sizeable spells, Carra injured, Sissoko and Alonso both injured. The ongoing struggles of Kewell to get fit, etc, etc, etc. The "if it ain't broke don't fix it" critique sounds good until you look at the injury list and realize that it's been dam.n hard to field that well-oiled machine from last season on a consistent basis this season.

The fixture list challenges has been done to death so I won't rehash it but people like Ace Ventura have a very good point: asking us to play each of our main rivals (including Everton and our bogey team Bolton) AWAY in the first two months of the season while the Mancs have been feasting on the likes of Fulham at home matters. We've had real trouble building any momentum as a result. I'm sure if we'd had Man U's fixture list we could have bedded in the new lads and dealt with the injuries while still getting results in the first two months.

As for the new lads, I'm starting to think that Pennant has been the main disruptive force this season. The main reason is that his performances have a direct effect on Gerrard: if Pennant comes in and does the business from the off, Rafa could have moved Gerrard to the middle earlier and got him going. But, with Pennant struggling, Gerrard needed to be out on the right, leading to months of discussion about Stevie's happiness and Rafa's stubbornness, which has not helped team morale.

Filling Kewell's shoes on the left was always going to be a challenge, as well, but we knew that Gonzales and Aurelio would need to learn the ropes in the Prem. As a result, left midfield was going to be the makeshift position: a series of players would fill in there will Gonzo found his feet. On the right, though, we had to presume that Pennant would slot right in, given his Premiership experience. The fact that he hasn't has meant that both flanks, not just the left, have become problem positions and the whole midfield balance has been disrupted.

The easy response is to say that Rafa got it wrong signing Pennant and should have shelled out the extra money for Alves. But, Alves would have been a gamble too and we cannot be held to ransom by teams who keep upping the price every time we settle on a deal. Back in the summer, a lot of us were prepared to go with Plan B--Pennant--rather than being taken to the cleaners over Alves. Although it hasn't worked out with Pennant, I still agree with that decision.

As for the rest of the new lads, they'll all come good, I feel, over time. And, Lando's right: the established Liverpool players have had a collective dip in form, so it's not just the new lads who have underperformed.

My take on a disappointing season, anyway...

by **7_Kewell** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:54 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Well as you've said in another thread - Gerrard put paid to any plans of "no-change" with his disgruntled attitude to playing anywhere but central midfield.

It seems that the only signign that could turn out to be a total failure is Pennant. It's not an ability issue, it's an application one. The lad has nothing by way of a heart.

Kuyt is already a success IMO, Gonzalez is younger than Agger (who was afforded a season to bed in), Paletta is only 20, and Bellamy cannot be fairly judged when he's had the assault charge hanging over him.

To be perfectly honest, it's all too easy to blame th enew players. It;s the established ones who have been poor.

pretty much agree with you there. Kuyt is a superb player and if Pennant worked 1/2 as hard as Dirk, he'd be a massive success.

by **red37** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:07 pm

i dont think we need Lucas Neill (at least not as a CD) - then again i thought we'd get away with the CM positions already here this season. But seriously, Paletta is basically the same kind of player...who has shown some potential, that only needs a bit of a polish up. Paletta's only challenge for me, is to curtail his 'enthusiasm' in the tackle. Do this and i feel he will be a regular before too long. I think he is doing what Agger did for the first season - i.e settling in and observing from viewpoints that are of benefit 'outside' the pressures of the first team. This will help immensely, as has been proven with DA. The only reason (despite Neill's versatility across the defence) Rafa 'allegedly' has an eye on the fella, is through the insurance of Steve Finann's position. Again, Paletta has that discipline also...Though on reflection, id be expecting an 'attacking' full-back to be something of a priority again. Lucas Neill (if cheap enough) would certainly come in useful, though im not sure he'd be the answer to that part of the puzzle...we'll see.

by **67-1161385641** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:57 pm

Lucas Neill would be a decent addition to the squad, if his purpose is to play a small role in the team, but I wouldn't want him playing every match, he's strong defender and an influential player, but he is extremely reckless, most notably around the eighteen yard box, he loses his head, not someone I would want to see playing often, but if his role is to be a back up player, I will welcome the signing.

Moving swiftly onto Rafa's summer signings, I was quite excited by the signings of Pennant, Bellamy and Kuyt. I watched Kuyt for Holland on a few occasions as well as watching him play the odd match for Feyenoord and I was pretty impressed, he had everything that is needed in a striker, he was linking up play, helping create it, he was getting others involved in the game, he was scoring goals and as well as setting goals up, so I was happy when we signed him. Pennant was a player I always liked, I watched a lot of his matches as a youngster, not to mention his spells at Leeds and Birmingham, so I got to like the player, he was getting balls into the box, he was causing the left full backs problems so again when we signed him I was happy, although I thought the price was rather OTT, but then again I thought that about £7,000,000 for Peter Crouch and he’s been worth every penny. I was happy about Bellamy, he did well at Celtic and at Blackburn, so at £6,000,000 he’s was a steal. I hadn’t ever heard of Palletta, I don’t want Argentine football, but from what a lot of South American people said on the football forum big soccer, it did seem like Palletta was a good footballer in the making. I hadn’t really seen Aurelio much before he came to Liverpool, but I couldn’t understand why we signed him, we had Kewell, Gonzales, Warnock and Riise, and so I don’t see his signing as anything more than just to expand the squad. He’s a bolster player like Bolo Zenden, the season before. Gonzales seemed like a decent youngster, I’m sure he will become a very good player for Liverpool, we just need to allow him time to settle down and adapt to a completely new type of football. My overall conclusion of the summer transfers was a positive one, I thought we addressed most areas that we needed addressing , I thought we could of probably just made two top signings and that would have been enough, but I was happy enough.

I think some of the criticism of the new players has been unjustified, I think Pennant has been at times unfairly slated, but I can see where those people are coming from and I can see why they are annoyed with Pennant, I also don’t feel he is giving his best, but then I also can see that he is low on confidence, so I’ll reserve my judgements on him and the new players until the end of the season. I still have faith in Pennant unlike some people, but that’s just me, I was like that with all our flops including Salif Diao of all people, so you could perhaps say I’m quite mad or just living in the world of blind faith, it’s entirely up to you.

To me, Kuyt is the only new player who has really impressed, that said he hasn’t produced his best, but I wasn’t expecting him to this season or any of the other new players this season, I always feel that the first season at a new club is a settling in one, if they carry on being poor into the next season and have two bad seasons, you have to deeply consider whether they are up to the standard of playing for the club. Most of our flops haven’t been poor players, they are good players, but they can’t handle the expectations of playing for a club of our stature, we aren’t a run off the mill club, eighteen leagues titles and five of Europe’s finest trophies sit in our cabinet and the new players that come in have to deliver the same thing and for a lot of these players the pressure gets too much for them and they lose their confidence and before you know it, they’re on the way out of the club and we lose money.

Answering your point about “has Rafa got it wrong in the transfer market”, I don’t think so, especially with the relatively small budget he was given, he’s done well with what he was given to work with. Of course he could of done better, there is always room for improvement in every aspect of life, Rafa will be the first manager to admit this, I feel he didn’t need to sign as many players as he did, if he had signed say Kuyt and a better right winger for a combined £25,000,000 I would have been just as happy (if not more happy) than what he signed this season. I think with Rafa he likes having large squad, but I feel his nous of the transfer markets aren’t as good as they could be., but what he lacks in that department, he makes up in determination and the will to win.

I don’t feel Rafa has tampered with the squad a lot this season, no more than what he’s done in the previous two seasons. I didn’t like his rotation of the defence, I could see what he was trying to do and that was blood in Agger (who has been magnificent) and Aurelio, but by doing this we weakened the back four and leaked goals, I don’t think he was correct for rotating the defence, as you said why fix what’s not broken” and this applies with the defence, thankfully he’s started to stick with the same defence and have you noticed we’ve been fairly good at the back, I expect the back four to become solid providing Rafa doesn’t continue to rotate the defence.

As for terms of tampering, I never saw that as an issue as to why we were losing, I think that was a poor aspect of Rafa’s game to criticise, he was doing it last season and I didn’t hear many (if any) declaring rotation as a problem. To me the problem this season has been the attitude towards matches, the willingness to win and the failure to convert chances and the failure to do the football basics well enough,.

If I’m honest, I didn’t expect us to run away with the league, I did however expect us to challenge all the way, and maybe win it; I however wasn’t expecting to be fourteen points behind United and 7th in the league, by December. Rafa wanted to add more of a dimension to our attack and this is evident in his summer signings, will his signings prove to be worthwhile? We will have to wait and see.

by **kop11** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:39 pm

Well as you've said in another thread - Gerrard put paid to any plans of "no-change" with his disgruntled attitude to playing anywhere but central midfield.

It seems that the only signign that could turn out to be a total failure is Pennant. It's not an ability issue, it's an application one. The lad has nothing by way of a heart.

Kuyt is already a success IMO, Gonzalez is younger than Agger (who was afforded a season to bed in), Paletta is only 20, and Bellamy cannot be fairly judged when he's had the assault charge hanging over him.

To be perfectly honest, it's all too easy to blame th enew players. It;s the established ones who have been poor.

pretty much agree with you there. Kuyt is a superb player and if Pennant worked 1/2 as hard as Dirk, he'd be a massive success

much agreed lando and kewell! time has to be given and dirk kuyt his one hell of a player!

i think the world cup has played a big part in the state of are team this year!

just give the lads a chance

by **PabloAimar** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:50 pm

very poor grammar

by **Lionheart** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:16 am

peewee wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:It's just that Rafa seems intent on the thug.

is he a thug mate or is it just because he injured our players that we see him that way, i think he is mostly just a tough tackler who if he was playing for us already we would just form that opinion, of a tough tackling, no nonsense player.

we have seen gerrard make some outrages tackles but we dont castigate him because its him, its the same with bellamy, if he wasnt a liverpool player now we would all be hoping he got sent down recently.

i say give neill a chance to prove himself

hear!! hear!!

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