Liverpool FC Forum

by **dawson99** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:35 pm

We dont buy players to jump into the team (well usually anyways)

Take Agger for example. He, to me, is a definate one for the future, but he needs to be treated right. He will play more and more as Hypia plays less and less but unlike the gooners we still have players who want to stay at liverpool so we can ease our players in more.

I will admit that weve had a lot of misses lately (who hasnt) and i alway say our turnover on players is WAY too high, but we have more than our fair share of successes

by **alessandromagno** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:45 pm

I have said before that I believe Rafa tried to change too much this summer. The additions of Kuyt and Alves would surely have been enough? We got 82 points last time out and clearly there wasn't much wrong. In particular, the defense was playing great. There was no real need to bring in all these utility players: just 2 quality signings would have been enough. I feel Rafa made a mistake by tinkering too much with a machine that was already working well.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:55 pm

alessandromagno wrote:I have said before that I believe Rafa tried to change too much this summer. The additions of Kuyt and Alves would surely have been enough? We got 82 points last time out and clearly there wasn't much wrong. In particular, the defense was playing great. There was no real need to bring in all these utility players: just 2 quality signings would have been enough. I feel Rafa made a mistake by tinkering too much with a machine that was already working well.

I disagree...all were important signings:

1) Bellamy, because we needed to replace Cisse as well as Morientes up top. Fowler's been magnificent but he's also getting on and has had some injury problems so you cannot rely on him to be fit to play a whole season as our primary back-up to Kuyt and Crouch.

2) Gonzales was already signed and sent out on loan until he could legally play for us. With Kewell's WC injury, his signing was essential.

3) Aurelio came on a free and provides important cover for both LB and LM. A good lad to have in the squad and his worth will be demonstrated eventually.

4) Palletta is exactly the kind of young, promising signing that the original poster is moaning we don't go after enough. How is investing in "one for the future" a bad use of funds when: a) he didn't cost very much and b) we have aging centre backs who will need cover and eventual replacing?

Face it, the new signings aren't the problem. It's been the established first-teamers that have let the team down the most this season.

by **Rafa D** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:19 pm

Rafa-Dodd wrote:Here is a thought - go and support them teams if your so worried about them!

Recently all you post is drivel, that is deterimental to the club and this forum and you obviously don't have any football knowledge. This thread is fucking pathetic!

Red@Heart a moment of temper ^^ :upside:

I see what your getting at but to be honest we have not done too badly. Arsenal are far and away the team that is best at developing and spotting talent but we are not that far behind.

You mentioned Schmeichel for Utd, well Sami is just as good a find. The little Norweigen Ole was bought in around the same time as Paddy Berger who was a good servant for our club.

Jamie Carragher, Steven Gerrard, Robbie Fowler, Micheal Owen, all came through our ranks and we did not have to pay for them. Much like Beckham, Neville, Scholes and Giggs at United. The top teams are all looking for talent, its just that Wenger had the knack and nous to tap into the African market to find gems like Eboue and Toure. Wenger also bought some stinkers like Diawara who played 1 game. Jeremy Allidere has been there for over 4 years and still does not get a game. Wenger has brought in young duds as well as us (Vignal, Traore) and United (Miller, Djemba,)

We now have a Ghanian club, Ashanti Gold as a feeder club and hopefully we will see the rewards in a few years.

Wenger was just ahead of the game, well done to him.

by **Rafa D** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:26 pm

Also in defence of Rafa, he has brought in many young players already into our team. In Spain and Sabre will back me up on this, the reserve teams are mainly youngsters, not like in England where the older players who cannot get into the first team play in the reserves and Rafa has brought this policy over here to Melwood. If you look at our reserve games it is always youngsters playing week in week out.

He has also brought in :

Miki Roque, Godwin Antwi, David Martin, Scott Carson, Paul Anderson, Jack Hobbs, David Roberts, Barragan, El Zhar, Paletta.

Paletta won Best Player at the U20's World Cup and Juventus, Sao Paula and Boca were all after him.

Anderson is seen as a future international.

Scott Carson is already a class act.

Cut the gaffer some slack, he is implementing a whole new youth system in the club and I am sure we will see the benefits in the next few years.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:26 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
alessandromagno wrote:I have said before that I believe Rafa tried to change too much this summer. The additions of Kuyt and Alves would surely have been enough? We got 82 points last time out and clearly there wasn't much wrong. In particular, the defense was playing great. There was no real need to bring in all these utility players: just 2 quality signings would have been enough. I feel Rafa made a mistake by tinkering too much with a machine that was already working well.

I disagree...all were important signings:

1) Bellamy, because we needed to replace Cisse as well as Morientes up top. Fowler's been magnificent but he's also getting on and has had some injury problems so you cannot rely on him to be fit to play a whole season as our primary back-up to Kuyt and Crouch.

2) Gonzales was already signed and sent out on loan until he could legally play for us. With Kewell's WC injury, his signing was essential.

3) Aurelio came on a free and provides important cover for both LB and LM. A good lad to have in the squad and his worth will be demonstrated eventually.

4) Palletta is exactly the kind of young, promising signing that the original poster is moaning we don't go after enough. How is investing in "one for the future" a bad use of funds when: a) he didn't cost very much and b) we have aging centre backs who will need cover and eventual replacing?

Face it, the new signings aren't the problem. It's been the established first-teamers that have let the team down the most this season.

I noticed you missed Pennent out of your analysis badbob

I agree that the squad needed strengthening, its just been unfortunate that only Kuyt has looked the part so far.

I do feel that now we have strength in depth (or at least in numbers) it is time we started to put all our eggs in one (or two) basket and buy one top player and maybe a good prospect every year, rather than the 4 or 5 squad players we have been buying.

We spent £30million on strengthening our squad ,maybe we could have held onto a few of our rejects (Traore, Pongole,Hamann, Morientes etc) and bought just a top class right midfielder and maybe one striker.(Kuyt)

At the very least this would have reduced the problem of integrating so many players into a successful team.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:30 pm

We now have a Ghanian club, Ashanti Gold as a feeder club and hopefully we will see the rewards in a few years.

Have you any more info on this Rafa ? Sounds good.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:18 pm

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
alessandromagno wrote:I have said before that I believe Rafa tried to change too much this summer. The additions of Kuyt and Alves would surely have been enough? We got 82 points last time out and clearly there wasn't much wrong. In particular, the defense was playing great. There was no real need to bring in all these utility players: just 2 quality signings would have been enough. I feel Rafa made a mistake by tinkering too much with a machine that was already working well.

I disagree...all were important signings:

1) Bellamy, because we needed to replace Cisse as well as Morientes up top. Fowler's been magnificent but he's also getting on and has had some injury problems so you cannot rely on him to be fit to play a whole season as our primary back-up to Kuyt and Crouch.

2) Gonzales was already signed and sent out on loan until he could legally play for us. With Kewell's WC injury, his signing was essential.

3) Aurelio came on a free and provides important cover for both LB and LM. A good lad to have in the squad and his worth will be demonstrated eventually.

4) Palletta is exactly the kind of young, promising signing that the original poster is moaning we don't go after enough. How is investing in "one for the future" a bad use of funds when: a) he didn't cost very much and b) we have aging centre backs who will need cover and eventual replacing?

Face it, the new signings aren't the problem. It's been the established first-teamers that have let the team down the most this season.

I noticed you missed Pennent out of your analysis badbob

I agree that the squad needed strengthening, its just been unfortunate that only Kuyt has looked the part so far.

I do feel that now we have strength in depth (or at least in numbers) it is time we started to put all our eggs in one (or two) basket and buy one top player and maybe a good prospect every year, rather than the 4 or 5 squad players we have been buying.

We spent £30million on strengthening our squad ,maybe we could have held onto a few of our rejects (Traore, Pongole,Hamann, Morientes etc) and bought just a top class right midfielder and maybe one striker.(Kuyt)

At the very least this would have reduced the problem of integrating so many players into a successful team.

Yeah, mate, I left Pennant out but not because he's been disappointing. The original poster was plumping for Alves on the right rather than Pennant so he was acknowledging the need for a RM.

I agree that we've now filled most of the glaring gaps and have a good sized squad so it's time to focus on buying 1-2 quality players that will take us to the next level.

As for the growing shout that "we should have held out for a top quality right midfielder" I think people need reminding that:

1) Alves is a RB by trade and may not have: a) adapted well to playing RM and b) adapted well to playing in England.

2) Top quality RMs have been few and far between over the past two seasons, particularly for fees we could afford.

The Figo, Simao and Alves circuses all demonstrated that signing top quality right midfielders in a seller's market without getting taken to the cleaners is not a simple prospect. People can complain all they want that the board haven't put the funds in Rafa's hands to buy top quality but that doesn't change the fact that Rafa's principled stance against paying over the odds for players--particularly when the selling club keeps jacking up the price--is the right stance to take, whether we have the cash to pay over the odds or not.

by **JC_81** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:21 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
john craig wrote:Wenger certainly has struck it lucky with his current crop. But he was also the first manager to flood his youth system with foreigners a few years back. Now us, Chelsea and United are doing the same so maybe in a few years you'll see us produce an Eboue or a Fabregas.

Think you're missing part of the point here John . It's not a just a question of signing good prospects , for christs sake Houllier was always telling us how his latest signing was a potential Zidane . It's more about signing players who are able to quickly prove that the decision to sign them was indeed the right one .

You say
" in a few years you'll see us produce an Eboue or a Fabregas."

Maybe you're unaware that Eboue made his first team debut just days after joining Arsenal and that Fabrergas made his first team debut the same season he joined Arsenal even though he was still only 16 ! .

Credit where credit is due , Wenger is not just "Lucky" but if it makes you feel better you can certainly claim our inability to match his instinct for signing such previously unearthed quality on bad luck .

I take your point that buying good prospects that can adapt quickly and justify their purchase is obviously a major bonus. But I don't see how you can say that the rapid emergence of both Fabregas and Eboue does not have a large amount of luck attached to them.

Neither were brought in to go straight in the first team. Lauren has had horrendous injuries otherwise Eboue would still be waiting for a decent run in the side and Fabregas would not be playing at the level he currently is at his young age had Wenger not been forced to play him after the loss of Vieira (who by Wenger's own admission he didn't want to sell). So is Wenger a genius for having the courage to thrown Eboue and Fabregas into the first team so soon? Is he fu.ck, his hand was forced and luckily those players adapted and improved very quickly.

And just to correct you woof, I never said that Wenger was 'just lucky'. He's got an eye for talent and knows how to nurture it, but there is an element of luck in the way his current team has developed.

by **alessandromagno** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:56 pm

Pity we never had Wenger instead of Houllier.

by **alxy** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:39 am

Yes, you are correct about the injuries, but then again, they were already backups before the injuries. Can you think of one position where we would draft in one of those youngsters if an injury happens? I don't think so. So our youngsters are not going to get the break that Eboue or Fabregas got. Momo out? Zenden and Gerrard covers. Riise AND Aurelio out? Warnock came in.

Only exception is Agger, who is fast becoming a first team option rather than backup. So our youngsters would probably have to wait for 3 or 4 injuries in the same position before they get thrown in. And if that happens, I would guess Rafa would probably loan in someone short term to cover.

Players aren't as patient as they were. With kids like Rooney, Ronaldo, Fabregas around, it shows that teenagers can play first team football. So my guess is some of these kids will get impatient if they are not close to the first team by the time they are 19/20. Maybe that's why kids like Calliste, Barrgan and Otsemobor have left previously. Of course, could also be that they were deemed not good enough. Which comes down to the original question then: why are we not producing good youngsters....

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:32 am

alxy wrote:Yes, you are correct about the injuries, but then again, they were already backups before the injuries. Can you think of one position where we would draft in one of those youngsters if an injury happens?

i assume finnan, we dont really have any cover for right back unless we play someone out of position. i think in this case we will play a youngster

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:58 am

Bad Bob wrote:
alessandromagno wrote:I have said before that I believe Rafa tried to change too much this summer. The additions of Kuyt and Alves would surely have been enough? We got 82 points last time out and clearly there wasn't much wrong. In particular, the defense was playing great. There was no real need to bring in all these utility players: just 2 quality signings would have been enough. I feel Rafa made a mistake by tinkering too much with a machine that was already working well.

I disagree...all were important signings:

1) Bellamy, because we needed to replace Cisse as well as Morientes up top. Fowler's been magnificent but he's also getting on and has had some injury problems so you cannot rely on him to be fit to play a whole season as our primary back-up to Kuyt and Crouch.

2) Gonzales was already signed and sent out on loan until he could legally play for us. With Kewell's WC injury, his signing was essential.

3) Aurelio came on a free and provides important cover for both LB and LM. A good lad to have in the squad and his worth will be demonstrated eventually.

4) Palletta is exactly the kind of young, promising signing that the original poster is moaning we don't go after enough. How is investing in "one for the future" a bad use of funds when: a) he didn't cost very much and b) we have aging centre backs who will need cover and eventual replacing?

Face it, the new signings aren't the problem. It's been the established first-teamers that have let the team down the most this season.

At the moment our form isnt all that and as you pointed out its most of our established first teamers that are letting us down. Almost any new player of any quality would struggle to fit in to the team with the way the rest are playing.

I have to say looking at our key players its seems fairly obvious the WC has taken its toll on them especially Alonso, Carra and Gerrard. Hasnt Gerrard almost played two years of football with the early CL campaign last season? This could be a good explanation to his current dip in form. Going off topic slightly with Gerrard I read somewhere that because he isnt playing in his favoured position, he's prooving a point to Benitez with his body language and performances by not busting a gut.

Back to topic, and I'm sure if the established first team players had been on form. It would of been so much easier for the new boys to slot in and perform well. Isnt there an old saying like ......... ' its easy for a player to fit into a side when playing well, but not so when their in a rut' or something like that. I even believe Pennant would of settled quicker and looked good if that were the case as I believe he is a decent player.
The only player to stand out of the new boys since he came in is Kuyt, and I believe because of his workrate and quality he's been able to impose his game into our current side which is in a bit of a rut, so when the other ten find form of a quality much needed his game will possibly raise even higher and hopefully he'll start finding the onion bag in away fixtures.

by **alxy** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:17 pm

peewee wrote:
alxy wrote:Yes, you are correct about the injuries, but then again, they were already backups before the injuries. Can you think of one position where we would draft in one of those youngsters if an injury happens?

i assume finnan, we dont really have any cover for right back unless we play someone out of position. i think in this case we will play a youngster

Yes, you're right in that aspect. We don't have a direct replacement for Finnan. If he does get an injury, what do you think Rafa would do? Blood out Peltier like he did for the League Cup? Or play someone out of position (e.g. Carra, with Agger taking his place as CB)?

Liverpool FC Forum

Why is it?

Who is online