Liverpool FC Forum

by **A.B.** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:10 pm

He played in his prefered position today and looked no better than he did in the last game.

by **Fowler_E7** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:05 am

i think today was a prime example of why Gerrard is far more of a goal threat when he plays on the right of midfield. He was far more restricted in what he could playing in the middle, he had a decent game but he was fairly quiet in an attacking sense, and i think a lot of this was due to his increased defensive requirments when playing center mid.

by **weringo** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:32 am

SouthCoastShankly wrote:
weringo wrote:
A.B. wrote:
CharmlessMan wrote:
weringo wrote:Pennant isnt young, hes nearly 24. Way before that time you can tell whether he will be a decent player some day.

"Confidence at this level to perform"?
He was at Arsenal for about 3 years who are arguebly at a higher level than us. Wenger isnt known for letting talent slip away from him unless he gets a very good price.

[b]Twenty four by my books is young, if he was twenty eight or twenty nine, you'd have a valid point, he can still drastically improve as a player within the next few years, players (bar the odd exception) usually play their best football (peak is some people's words) when they are around the twenty eight mark.

Its true my friend, confidence helps a lot, when you are confident about something you will naturally excel in that particular aspect, it's the same in football.

He spent three years at Arsenal being shoved out on loan to lower league opposition, such as Watford, Leeds and Birmingham. In all honesty he didn't really establish himself until last season at Birmingham, so he has a lot to learn and I'm confidence he will improve.

Arsene Wenger doesn't like English talent; it's a known fact, why did he get rid of Bentley? Bentley is a class talent, that Justin Hoyte won't last long at Arsenal, mark my words, he'll be sold as soon as Arsene finds another French left back.

Pennant is 22, he'll be 23 in January.

Pennant is 23, check your facts

Ha. Says the bloke who just stated he was 24!

Another person who seems incapable of reading

weringo wrote:Pennant isnt young, hes nearly 24.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:29 am

Gerrard displayed why CM is NOT his BEST position. No discipline.

The holes he left for ALonso to cover would have been exploited all day long by a decent team.

Fancy taking bets on the REAL reason we only managed a draw today?

Had Gerrard have been on the right, we'd have won - as Xabi wouldn't have had to bust a gut covering the acres of space MR Fantastic kept leaving by "surging" (*ahem) forward at a leisurely 2 mph.

"Gerrard's best position is in the middle" my f*cking fat a*se.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:00 am

What's Shaun Wright Phillips best position?

Bench.

Centre Seat.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:25 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Gerrard displayed why CM is NOT his BEST position. No discipline.

The holes he left for ALonso to cover would have been exploited all day long by a decent team.

Fancy taking bets on the REAL reason we only managed a draw today?

Had Gerrard have been on the right, we'd have won - as Xabi wouldn't have had to bust a gut covering the acres of space MR Fantastic kept leaving by "surging" (*ahem) forward at a leisurely 2 mph.

"Gerrard's best position is in the middle" my f*cking fat a*se.

Cra.p !

There is no hiding the fact he is in poor form, and it looks as though its going to take him a fair amount of time to get it back. But to sit there and say Gerrards best position is RM is c.rap to be honest, he's done no better there than he has in the two starts he's played in CM in the prem.

Thats the great thing about having Xabi besides him in CM, it gives him more licence to roam. Alonso to a certain extent is Gerrards insurannce, although I will admit he has looked lazy in recent performances I dont know why.

Lando your saying we'd of won if Gerrard played wide, I'd be more inclined to say we'd of lost if Zenden had started in the middle, he would of been overun with their five man midfield and would have had no impact on the game what so ever. And if Gerrard had been on the wing he would of gone drifting and lost the balance, shape and width of the side. I'd put money on it Finnan would prefer Pennant infront of him as he covers and offers outlets and hold his position well, its the final third where Pennant is lacking.

" Mr fantastic" did have a poor game, so did Kuyt, Agger and Gonzo, lets have a dig at them while we're at it hey!

One more thing, IF there is anyone player we should stick by through a rough patch its "Mr fantastic". You'd do well to remember the amount of time he's more or less single handedly pulled us through games and got us results, when the rest of his team mates have been average and looked to him for inspiration, maybe its his turn to look to his team mates for the exact same thing.

Right mid, his best position, my f.ucking skinny @rse

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:27 am

The Sunday Times November 19, 2006
Why Rafa has got him right
JONATHAN NORTHCROFT

The Liverpool manager picks his team based on science rather than gut instinct and will continue to do so despite his best player’s preference
“Benitez is friendly, but I am not sure he is interested in his players as people. He rarely communicates with us on a personal basis. We are cogs in a machine for Benitez. Fair enough. I’ve no problem with that. We’re all professionals. Benitez’s task is to win games, not popularity contests.” — Steven Gerrard, My Autobiography.
“Steven was playing in the middle for part of the second half and we didn’t create many chances. We need to improve as a team and not think about one or two players.” — Rafael Benitez, post-match interview, Arsenal 3 Liverpool 0.

There are two things that weary Liverpool supporters beyond irritation to the threshold of rage. One is the outpourings of a certain José Mário dos Santos Mourinho Félix. The other is the debate whether Steven Gerrard should be playing wide or in central midfield. Gerrard returned to the middle against Middlesbrough yesterday but he has never been anywhere except at the fulcrum of analyses when people discuss his football club. It drives Rafael Benitez crazy, privately, despite the mask of equanimity he wears.

Benitez is shrewd enough to realise that Gerrard-mania stems from nothing more sinister than the fact that his captain, alongside Wayne Rooney, is the only English footballer esteemed universally in this country and, unlike Rooney, is liked by just about everyone, too. Yet Benitez is stubborn enough for this not to make a shred of difference to how Gerrard, and questions about him, are treated.

“I am a central midfielder, it’s as simple as that,” Gerrard reiterated in midweek. Deafness, not deference, is that with which Benitez receives Mr Popular’s remarks.

By first using Bolo Zenden alongside Xabi Alonso in the wake of Momo Sissoko’s injury Benitez has suggested Gerrard in the centre is no better than his Plan C. Instinct suggests it should be Plan A, that the spine of the team is where Liverpool’s best footballer can have maximum impact, that Gerrard’s rare command of all the game’s disciplines — tackling, passing, running, heading, shooting — means he should be deployed in the area where versatility is at a premium. The stats say something different. Benitez, the scientist, will go with evidence over instinct every time. A breakdown of their significant games over the past two seasons shows that Liverpool won a far greater proportion when Gerrard was on the right. His personal contribution, in goal terms at least, does not depend on his position particularly.

The percentages are a testament to Gerrard’s consistency and character — but even more so to Benitez’s judgment.

“I understand a lot of people want to talk about it ’s position but I can’t do anything about that. The only thing I can do is focus on improving things with my team and if I think we can do that with Gerrard on the right side or on the left side, I will use that,” said the manager. “Maybe he prefers to play in the middle, but he needs to understand — and he does understand. He is clever.” But is he happy? Benitez would regard such a question as moot. Gerrard is right about being seen as a cog. It is nothing to do with a culture clash because at Valencia the players also felt Benitez aloof. But Gerrard, reluctantly, recognizes another truth: “Friends ask whether Rafa’s cold attitude pisses me off but it honestly doesn’t,” he wrote in his autobiography. “That indifference is one of the million reasons why Rafa is top man in the coaching world.”

There are some who feel Gerrard is so important Benitez should just do whatever it takes to keep him smiling. But not Liverpool fans, weaned on the boot room philosophy that the club is greater than the individual; not the Anfield dressing room, dominated by the down-to-earth viewpoints of such as Jamie Carragher; not even, in his heart of hearts, Gerrard himself. He is an honest lad who admits he sometimes sees the game in terms too personal for his own good (“the humiliation kills me,” he says of being substituted) but he does not expect special treatment. There may have been a time, when he was less mature, that was less the case but since re-signing for Liverpool in 2005 he has been absolutely loyal. Last month when Gerrard learnt newspapers were preparing stories about a “rift” between him and Benitez, he moved indignantly to quash them. Not that it stopped some titles running the tale, and the gossipy nature of Liverpool (“Rumour City” Gerrard calls it) means reporters will always receive wild “tip-offs”.

Gerrard is not responsible for the Give-Stevie-What-He-Wants campaign. It comes down to how people have gone soft on footballers. It is as if our stars are precious ornaments that cannot be mishandled or moved: when Andy Johnson played as wide attacker for England the reaction was as if Steve McClaren had removed one of the striker’s legs rather than placed him slightly out of position. Other countries are less cosseting; Dirk Kuyt has spent most of his Holland career on the wing to no outcry from the Dutch. Louis Van Gaal suggests English players lack tactical understanding. At least Gerrard has proved more flexible in his career than Frank Lampard who embodies the English phenomenon of the footballer who can play brilliantly — but only one way.

“If I ask you to play five-a-sides, you don’t say ‘what position?’ You just play,” Benitez observed. He is not stupid. He knows fine that Gerrard is his best player, a unique talent in the Anfield ranks, and admits as much when his guard is down. But it would go against all he believes regarding team ethic to say this publicly or — worse — to Gerrard himself. It is because he believes in Gerrard so much he shifts him about. His reference points for Gerrard are Ronaldinho, Luis Figo. “We need to put Steve where he has freedom,” Benitez said. To him, the wing is a starting point from where his matchwinner can seek out space and he has statistics demonstrating that even when Gerrard plays on the right he gets most of his touches in central areas. He never refers to Gerrard as a winger rather someone who “plays between the lines”.

He doubts his captain defensively, it must be said. Here is Benitez’s analysis of Zenden in the Arsenal defeat. “Bolo was playing really well. In the first half (Cesc) Fabregas was not there. By the end he had a big influence on the game. He started having an influence when? After 2-0 — we changed Zenden to the left side . . .” It was Gerrard, of course, who moved into the space Zenden vacated. When Benitez first played Gerrard on the right (see panel) Liverpool switched from crisis to a record-breaking run of victories and clean sheets.

It is a problem that wide players depend on the core of their team for supply and Gerrard has suffered more than anyone from Alonso’s poor form. Gerrard on the right makes least sense when Liverpool are struggling and most when everything flows. Many picture Alonso and Gerrard as a central partnership but Liverpool went 3-0 down in the Champions League final with precisely this spine; only when Didi Hamann came on alongside Alonso and Gerrard went “between the lines” were AC Milan stemmed. Benitez reminisced proudly of his acumen in Istanbul. “I like,” he said, “playing chess.”

Steven Gerrard might be king but while Benitez is at Anfield only one hand gets to move the pieces in the game.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2093-2459997,00.html

Gerrard on the right: P 31 W 23 D 3 L 5 Goals 9

Gerrard in middle: P 25 W 14 D 8 L 3 Goals 6

Gerrard on left: P 2 L 2 Goals 0

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:57 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Gerrard displayed why CM is NOT his BEST position. No discipline.

The holes he left for ALonso to cover would have been exploited all day long by a decent team.

Fancy taking bets on the REAL reason we only managed a draw today?

Had Gerrard have been on the right, we'd have won - as Xabi wouldn't have had to bust a gut covering the acres of space MR Fantastic kept leaving by "surging" (*ahem) forward at a leisurely 2 mph.

"Gerrard's best position is in the middle" my f*cking fat a*se.

Cra.p !

There is no hiding the fact he is in poor form, and it looks as though its going to take him a fair amount of time to get it back. But to sit there and say Gerrards best position is RM is c.rap to be honest, he's done no better there than he has in the two starts he's played in CM in the prem.

Thats the great thing about having Xabi besides him in CM, it gives him more licence to roam. Alonso to a certain extent is Gerrards insurannce, although I will admit he has looked lazy in recent performances I dont know why.

Lando your saying we'd of won if Gerrard played wide, I'd be more inclined to say we'd of lost if Zenden had started in the middle, he would of been overun with their five man midfield and would have had no impact on the game what so ever. And if Gerrard had been on the wing he would of gone drifting and lost the balance, shape and width of the side. I'd put money on it Finnan would prefer Pennant infront of him as he covers and offers outlets and hold his position well, its the final third where Pennant is lacking.

" Mr fantastic" did have a poor game, so did Kuyt, Agger and Gonzo, lets have a dig at them while we're at it hey!

One more thing, IF there is anyone player we should stick by through a rough patch its "Mr fantastic". You'd do well to remember the amount of time he's more or less single handedly pulled us through games and got us results, when the rest of his team mates have been average and looked to him for inspiration, maybe its his turn to look to his team mates for the exact same thing.

Right mid, his best position, my f.ucking skinny @rse

The fact is, I was singling out Gerrard, as this is a Gerrard thread.

I never said Zenden is a better bet in CM that Gerrard - patently that is not the case. But at least Zenden has the self discipline to hold position now and again for the good of the team. (Rarely, I'll grant you.)

FOr me, Gerrard is our second best player behind ALonso. I don't expect or want anyone to agree with me - that is just how I see it. I want the captain to perform well. I have nothing against him as a player, but I WILL point out his weaknesses when people want to snuff his a*sehole 24/7.

All I'm saying is right midfield is Gerrard's best position.

Simple, really.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:15 am

Good article S@int, but my own opinion hasnt changed on where Stevie should play. Rafa is much more likely to be right then some poster in Oz sharing his views. On his day the lad can play ANYWHERE, but I still think on his day he's better in the center, merely going on the fact of his first few seasons when Houllier was in charge he was often compared to the Keane's and Vieiras of the world. And was an all action gutt busting hard tackling no nonsense goal threatening player. Most people have brushed that under the carpet and forgot about it after he had one good season at right mid.

Its apparent though at the moment, that wherever he's been playing he's been well out of sorts, maybe getting him going again is more important than arguing where he should be playing, because until then he's useless as a RM, CM, LM but maybe not goalkeeper

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:25 am

But at least Zenden has the self discipline to hold position

Thats because he hasnt got the legs to roam, so he's static in midfield

I agree that Alonso has been better than him theres no question, and I'm not snuffing Gerrards ars.e because he has been poor. But I dont understand the way Gerrard has to be re-shuffled about through midfield for the sake of the team, especially when its not working. The same thing is happening at Liverpool as it did when Gerrard played in the WC for England. Because he's Liverpool and Englands best palyer he looses out on his best position, I seem to recall you taking a swipe a Sven for doing the same thing with Gerrard at the WC, because of fat Frank. Now there is no way on earth that fat frank is better than Alonso, but in the Liverpool team they could be paired off perfectly, unlike the case with Fatboy frank who was inept at his defensive duties...... Alonso isnt.
It amazes me how after three quarters of a season, everyone knows Gerrards best position is RM, when before that he made his name and was touted as one of the best CM's in the world.

by **red37** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:26 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:All I'm saying is right midfield is Gerrard's best position.

Simple, really.

Bamaga, Lando's right.

lets just say, that he's better off playing there, with the current set-up in mind. Alonso operates to his best when the oppositions attention is focused on keeping Gerrard shackled because he is such a threat. (forget whether his 23 goals came from the middle or the flank) the lad is of major concern to any side he faces. and with him out on the right it widens our menace and strength accross the park, instead of narrowing it allowing forays against our weaker flanks. which as a result diminishes the midfields potency in being pre-occupied with repelling attacks instead of supplying the service. Especially when Gerrard has driven into the box and its all broke down. Alonso is then stranded. Of course the opposition in question is relevant as to whether Rafa chooses to exploit Gerrards versatility. but neither of those two are 'defensively' minded, they can tackle, for sure. but that isnt the role asked of them. and until the wide positions are addressed properly this will remain highly topical. the only real issue to note, and the reason this debate rumbles on is the fact that none of them have hit the heights yet, for whatever reasons. that and the loss of a 'break-up player' like Sissoko are two critical factors.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:29 am

Gerrard may play slightly better in the middle, but I think the team when Momo is fit is much stronger when Gerrard plays on the right and Momo and Alonso play central. At the moment Gerrard needs to find some form, even if drastic measures are called for and he has to take a break from the game for a few games. We have 3 home games coming up, so if he needs a break now is the time (Zenden can cover for him

)

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:29 am

Bamaga, Lando's right.

Says you, thats your opinion.

by **red37** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:30 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Bamaga, Lando's right.

Says you, thats your opinion.

no mate- my opinion was typed underneath.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:35 am

s@int wrote:Gerrard may play slightly better in the middle, but I think the team when Momo is fit is much stronger when Gerrard plays on the right and Momo and Alonso play central. At the moment Gerrard needs to find some form, even if drastic measures are called for and he has to take a break from the game for a few games. We have 3 home games coming up, so if he needs a break now is the time (Zenden can cover for him )

I'd agree with that .......... I'd play Gerrard wide if Sissoko were not injured, having the three of them in midfield is a quality unit. But as it stands Momo's injured for four months so we now have to look at out best CM pairing which I think is Alonso-Gerrard. Lets not forget those two havent played many games as a pairing and if they had a consistent run of games together for a period of time, lets say four months. I'm sure it would work perfectly providing Gerrard finds his form quick smart.

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