Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:32 am

s@int wrote:
this from The Times online echoes some of the points ive made above.

Nah mate, you made some good points, this article is a load of sh!tstirring b0llocks. I have worried in the past (and still do to some extent) about Rafa's relationship with his players but once we start winning again all this cr@p will fade away.

To me this is a thinly veiled attack on Rafa not a balanced view of him.

I can see where the confusion came from my post was a bit ambiguous

by **red37** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:39 am

s@int wrote:
s@int wrote:
this from The Times online echoes some of the points ive made above.

Nah mate, you made some good points, this article is a load of sh!tstirring b0llocks. I have worried in the past (and still do to some extent) about Rafa's relationship with his players but once we start winning again all this cr@p will fade away.

To me this is a thinly veiled attack on Rafa not a balanced view of him.

I can see where the confusion came from my post was a bit ambiguous

clear as mud to me

...punctuation marks are our friends!

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:47 am

red37 wrote:
s@int wrote:
s@int wrote:
this from The Times online echoes some of the points ive made above.

Nah mate, you made some good points, this article is a load of sh!tstirring b0llocks. I have worried in the past (and still do to some extent) about Rafa's relationship with his players but once we start winning again all this cr@p will fade away.

To me this is a thinly veiled attack on Rafa not a balanced view of him.

I can see where the confusion came from my post was a bit ambiguous

clear as mud to me ...punctuation marks are our friends!

Once I learn how to write bold text, punctuation will become less of a problem. I stuck a few tadpoles in what more do you want! At least my spellings improving.

by **red37** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:02 am

s@int wrote:
red37 wrote:
s@int wrote:
s@int wrote:
this from The Times online echoes some of the points ive made above.

Nah mate, you made some good points, this article is a load of sh!tstirring b0llocks. I have worried in the past (and still do to some extent) about Rafa's relationship with his players but once we start winning again all this cr@p will fade away.

To me this is a thinly veiled attack on Rafa not a balanced view of him.

I can see where the confusion came from my post was a bit ambiguous

clear as mud to me ...punctuation marks are our friends!

Once I learn how to write bold text, punctuation will become less of a problem. I stuck a few tadpoles in what more do you want! At least my spellings improving.

i was actually referring to me missing your 'tadpoles' as opposed to anything you've done wrong saint

anyway back on topic: i believe some of the problems we are debating over Rafa's approach to players quite possibly stem from the very same thing we've been joking about here for the last half an hour. a lack of clear understanding and communication that isnt getting hammered home for whatever reason. because if you have those factors under control; there really can be no excuse for any misinterpretation or bewilderment in your role at all.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:57 am

My first thread on here was "Does Benitez like Gerrard" in which I questioned Benitez relationship with Gerrard. I was slaughtered for it, but I still think its a valid question. I think that players are all different, some need an arm round the shoulder and some need a kick up the backside to get the best out of them ,and its part of a managers job to know who to kick and who to praise.

I think Benitez tries to distance himself from the players and tries to treat them all the same. When Liverpool are playing well and winning this is not a problem. Morale is high, the players are confident and eager to show their skills. When we are struggling and losing games maybe its harder for Benitez to raise their morale and restore their confidence because of this "distance".

Having said that, he didnt do a bad job in Istanbul or at Cardiff so why the difficulty now? All I know is somethings wrong with the teamspirit at the moment, heads are dropping and we seem to be accepting defeat whenever we go behind. Maybe its time for Rafa to kick some butts and give the rest a kiss and a cuddle.

Its a good job Rafa has won a few cups since he came, just think of the abuse he would get if he hadnt!

by **babu** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:11 am

s@int wrote:My first thread on here was "Does Benitez like Gerrard" in which I questioned Benitez relationship with Gerrard. I was slaughtered for it, but I still think its a valid question. I think that players are all different, some need an arm round the shoulder and some need a kick up the backside to get the best out of them ,and its part of a managers job to know who to kick and who to praise.

I think Benitez tries to distance himself from the players and tries to treat them all the same. When Liverpool are playing well and winning this is not a problem. Morale is high, the players are confident and eager to show their skills. When we are struggling and losing games maybe its harder for Benitez to raise their morale and restore their confidence because of this "distance".

Having said that, he didnt do a bad job in Istanbul or at Cardiff so why the difficulty now? All I know is somethings wrong with the teamspirit at the moment, heads are dropping and we seem to be accepting defeat whenever we go behind. Maybe its time for Rafa to kick some butts and give the rest a kiss and a cuddle.

oh yeah i remember that. Your first thread, and what a way to start. I was extremely sceptical when you posted that, because thats the way most wind-up merchants start, they choose a topic that's bound to generate heated arguement and sit back pulling their tally-wacker.

In light of recent events the question is reasonable, IMO. Its just so unlikely, i mean, he is our best player, game changer, local lad, the captain, etc. It seems impossible that Rafa doesn't like him.

But my view recently has been coloured by Fowler's book, which i just finished. The season after the treble fowler claims that Houllier was doing his best to make his life untenable at melwood (in small and petty ways), while at the same time telling the media that fowler was in his long term plans.

I am not saying that's what Rafa is doing, its just we can never be sure what exactly is going on training ground, because the players will not speak out, and rightly so.

by **red37** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:35 am

for a start the amount of respect thats afforded the opposition in the first place is sometimes way too over-emphasised for me. making it a self imposed open trap-door to fall foul of by labouring the fact to the point of it becoming inevitable. little wonder even before a ball is kicked, heads are bound to drop because of the fear and disillusionment through experiences on the road to date when it has gone pear-shaped. and while a healthy grasp of the measure of the oppositions intent must be considered and equated for in the gameplan and within reason. nothing suggests the initiative should be so easily relinquished on the pitch due to that weakness having a reputation for rearing its head at the slightest deviation from the script. simply through instilling that negative psychology from the off. real benefit to morale at the moment should be encouraged in 'commanding' respect ourselves for a change, like it used to be. and that would go some way towards helping rediscover a platform upon which to build our stock up again.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:00 am

get a room

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:31 pm

s@int wrote:My first thread on here was "Does Benitez like Gerrard" in which I questioned Benitez relationship with Gerrard. I was slaughtered for it, but I still think its a valid question. I think that players are all different, some need an arm round the shoulder and some need a kick up the backside to get the best out of them ,and its part of a managers job to know who to kick and who to praise.

I think Benitez tries to distance himself from the players and tries to treat them all the same. When Liverpool are playing well and winning this is not a problem. Morale is high, the players are confident and eager to show their skills. When we are struggling and losing games maybe its harder for Benitez to raise their morale and restore their confidence because of this "distance".

Having said that, he didnt do a bad job in Istanbul or at Cardiff so why the difficulty now? All I know is somethings wrong with the teamspirit at the moment, heads are dropping and we seem to be accepting defeat whenever we go behind. Maybe its time for Rafa to kick some butts and give the rest a kiss and a cuddle.

Its a good job Rafa has won a few cups since he came, just think of the abuse he would get if he hadnt!

As I recall, you also started that thread soon after the FA Cup win when no one wanted to hear any 'dissent in the ranks' rumours or theories! In fact, I think it got you labeled as a Manc for a time. Ahhh, Saint, you've come a long way, mate!

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:My first thread on here was "Does Benitez like Gerrard" in which I questioned Benitez relationship with Gerrard. I was slaughtered for it, but I still think its a valid question. I think that players are all different, some need an arm round the shoulder and some need a kick up the backside to get the best out of them ,and its part of a managers job to know who to kick and who to praise.

I think Benitez tries to distance himself from the players and tries to treat them all the same. When Liverpool are playing well and winning this is not a problem. Morale is high, the players are confident and eager to show their skills. When we are struggling and losing games maybe its harder for Benitez to raise their morale and restore their confidence because of this "distance".

Having said that, he didnt do a bad job in Istanbul or at Cardiff so why the difficulty now? All I know is somethings wrong with the teamspirit at the moment, heads are dropping and we seem to be accepting defeat whenever we go behind. Maybe its time for Rafa to kick some butts and give the rest a kiss and a cuddle.

Its a good job Rafa has won a few cups since he came, just think of the abuse he would get if he hadnt!

As I recall, you also started that thread soon after the FA Cup win when no one wanted to hear any 'dissent in the ranks' rumours or theories! In fact, I think it got you labeled as a Manc for a time. Ahhh, Saint, you've come a long way, mate!

Now he's just a bitter

by **Rafa D** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:55 pm

We are going to Athens again in May, to win our 6th European cup.

Don't worry, be happy.

by **babu** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:34 pm

Rafa-Dodd wrote:We are going to Athens again in May, to win our 6th European cup.

Don't worry, be happy.

lol can you imagine? that'll bankrupt plenty of fans so soon after Istanbul.

by **red37** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:30 pm

Paul tomkins perspective:

WHEN SQUARE PEGS FIT ROUND HOLES
Paul Tomkins 15 November 2006

It's easy to pigeonhole players. It's easy to get into the mindset that they can only perform one particular role. But it's also often wrong. Talent should come hand-in-hand with versatility.

I've never been of the opinion that players have one set, defined position, and that that is therefore the end of the matter. While you wouldn't want too many goalies deciding they'd rather be left wingers (especially 15 minutes into a game), good players should be adaptable.

Players will always have a position that suits them best, where they are at their most effective. But if it’s a question of getting only 90% from a player in order to get more from the team (in that the alternative would be to play someone whose very best is only 75% of the other player), then that’s what counts.

Providing they have the physical attributes for the role, they should be able to at the very least do a job elsewhere. If Denis Bergkamp could play left-back for the Ajax youth team (albeit only as part of his education as a footballer), then it's something all players, and fans, should be open-minded to.

There are a select few Liverpool players in recent years who have had two distinct careers at the club: a number of seasons spent being one type of player, only to then be switched to a new role.

I began going to Anfield in 1990, when John Barnes was still the most exciting talent in the game: a sublime left-winger. But of course, it was also around the time when he'd had a very successful spell as a striker, having topped the league scoring charts and finished with 28 goals in all competitions. But it was also shortly before a serious Achilles tendon injury robbed him of his pace.

I grew up fairly obsessed with Liverpool, like any football-mad kid who supports a club. But it was only in 1987, when I was 16, that I really fell head over heels in love – and it was following the arrival of Barnes, Peter Beardsley, John Aldridge and Ray Houghton. Kenny Dalglish's side sparked my imagination in a way I'd never previously experienced. They played a kind of football that really was like watching Brazil. And at the heart of it was John Barnes, the man who'd scored arguably the best goal Brazil had ever witnessed three years earlier.

One game shortly after his arrival sticks out in my mind. QPR visited Anfield as the surprise early league leaders in 1987. They weren't so much beaten 4-0 as well and truly dismantled. At one point it looked as if Amnesty International would have to intervene (not to mention the RSPCA, given one Rangers' defender was made to look like a lame cart horse time and time again.)

One moment stands out to this day. ‘Digger’ won the ball on the halfway line and sprinted forward towards the edge of the area, drifting to his left past one defender before almost defying the laws of physics with a turn to his right which took him past England international Paul Parker. It would have been easy to blast a shot at goal, but he had the coolness and presence of mind to slip the ball under a young David Seaman – who premiered his look of bemusement mixed with dejection which he would later reprise for Nayim, Ronaldinho, and of course, most delightfully, Michael Owen at Cardiff.

By the time 2nd-placed Nottingham Forest arrived at Anfield in April 1988, and were beaten 5-0 in what was widely regarded as the finest-ever display on these shores, we pretty much knew that anything was possible. After all, by then Steve Nicol (another supremely versatile player) had scored a hat-trick from left-back away at St James' Park. Teams had been routinely thumped for nine months by that stage. Barnes was the star of a special show.

In 1991 Graeme Souness inherited an ageing squad from Dalglish. Souness then sold some of its better players (Beardsley, Houghton) and replaced them with inferior ones. Alan Hansen had to retire as age, and dodgy knees, caught up with him. But perhaps the biggest factor was Barnes losing his ability to ghost past people and leave them for dead.

Barnes would later be reborn in a midfield role under Roy Evans. His waistline may have expanded to mirror Jan Molby's, but his game started to resemble the great Dane's, too: he hardly got around the pitch, but for three or four years he simply never gave the ball away.

While Barnes is only regarded as a legend on the basis of his salad days, when he took wingplay to new breathtaking heights, he remained a class act even during his later, erm, hamburger days.

Of the current team we know Steven Gerrard has the ability to play anywhere. And of course, his position on the pitch comes with a raging debate, and ludicrous suggestions that Benítez chooses to play him on the right merely to prove a point. And there was me thinking it was so he could have a free role to ghost infield (admittedly something he didn't really do at Arsenal), in the way top-class "central" players of the calibre of Ronaldinho, Zidane and Figo have over recent years.

But it is Jamie Carragher who is enjoying a new career, now remade as a centre-back after the first half of his playing days were spent at full-back.

But in Carra's case it was a question of returning to the role he'd already been earmarked for. In 1999 Gérard Houllier said that one day Carragher would be Liverpool's Marcel Dessaily; he just wasn't ready at that stage. He had grown up as a kid in central midfield and central defence, but couldn't grow up quickly enough in those roles in senior football. It was a struggle.

Having been steady for years on either the left or right full-back slot, he spent the first two seasons of Benítez's reign excelling at the heart of the defence. While he's not been as his best this season, it's a timely (if unpleasant) reminder that he's not superhuman after all.

Perhaps the greatest transformation ever seen at the club was made by Ray Kennedy. When he arrived at Liverpool from Arsenal, as a battering ram of a centre-forward, it was obviously in this role in which Bill Shankly intended him to play. Things didn’t exactly go as planned. Kennedy failed to make a spot in the side his own, and found himself in the reserves.

The transformation under Bob Paisley from a big and burly centre forward to an artful left-sided midfielder in 1975 is still seen by some as the greatest-ever manager’s long-term tactical masterstroke. Of course, the main credit should go to Kennedy, as he was the man who took to the field and adapted so wonderfully.

Kennedy was a tall, upright kind of player. Watching him run, there seemed no way he could be a footballer; he was in the same club as Patrick Vieira and Chris Waddle in that he simply didn’t look the part, didn’t move naturally.

Put a ball at Ray’s feet, however, and suddenly it was the most natural sight in the world. It stayed close to his side like an obedient sheepdog. He was suddenly a master, in control, calling the shots. Some players are busy, but busy themselves in going nowhere; Ray took his time, but always got there, always arrived.

In being upright, it meant he also played with his head up –– the sign of a good player. You need time on the ball to be able to lift your head, and only good players get time on the ball. You also need to know your control is perfect to take your eyes from the ball and survey the field. He had such quality he could look completely natural in the role.

But the debate of where certain players should be deployed will always come back to Steven Gerrard. Momo Sissoko's injury might seem the obvious cue to move Gerrard back into the middle, and that may happen in the coming months.

But it's also true that on the right he has the ability to put in dangerous crosses, as well as the licence to get into advanced central positions in a way that can make him harder to pick up. Another bonus is that leaving gaps down the right is less immediately dangerous than leaving gaps in the centre, and that's why so many great central talents (such as those mentioned earlier) start from wide positions when drifting around the pitch. It's not like Benítez is doing anything other top managers haven't done in recent years with the best attacking midfielders in the world.

Of course, Arsenal was a game where this ploy didn't really work. And yet at Chelsea, starting on the left (an even more outrageous misuse if his talent to some!), Gerrard ghosted into some great goalscoring positions and really should have won the game for the Reds. Had his aim been just a few inches better on a couple of occasions, the decision would have been seen as a tactical masterstroke.

Maybe the time is right to move him back into a central starting position, to try something different in the absence of Sissoko. That's up to the manager to decide. But it was only a little over a year ago that the Reds were struggling in the league, and the problem was remedied to a large degree by switching Gerrard to a regular role on the right wing.

But hey, playing Gerrard out wide never works, does it?

by **red37** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:43 pm

and an interview with Reina in this weeks LFC magazine:

'Last season the Spanish international was part of an Anfield defence that kept 33 clean sheets, but this term there have only been five as Liverpool have slipped out of the title race at an alarming rate.

Reina has had a lack of conviction and confidence in his game highlighted this term, although he could not be held at fault for any of the goals in last Sunday's 3-0 defeat at Arsenal.

And there has even been speculation in Spain that Valencia are monitoring Reina's situation.

But Reina, in LFC magazine interview, says of his struggle for consistent form: "I spoke a lot to my family, especially my father. He was a great goalkeeper and there is nothing I am going through that he did not go through in his career so he has been a massive help to me."

Reina's father, Miguel, won five Spanish caps, a league title and three Spanish Cups and had an excellent career with Atletico Madrid.

The 24-year-old continued: "I remember my good form of last season and I know I set myself a very high standard, but I believe I can get better.

"I believe I can improve every aspect of my goalkeeping and that is why I train just as hard as I play. For me, you can never stand back and say that you are a good player because the best players in my position are always trying to get better."

Reina's attitude to his fluctuating form is that goalkeepers are always the ones blamed when things go wrong.

He said: "When people point out my mistakes you are reminded that as a goalkeeper you are only one person. There is no-one to share the blame with.

"But you won't hear me complaining about that, even when things are going really badly. I knew the situation you face as a 'keeper when I decided I wanted to play in that position.

"My dad was a professional goalkeeper and I knew, growing up, what I would have to face. I understand the life of a goalkeeper and if people want to criticise me they can. It does not affect me, my ability or my life.

"I am not short of confidence because I believe totally in myself. I am not quite at the levels I reached last season, but I am not the only person at the club who can say that.

"If we were all on top form we would be much higher up the league. When things are not going well and the team is losing goals, all the attention goes on the defence and the keeper. That is natural.

"But at Liverpool we understand that having a really strong defence needs everyone in the team doing their job.

"Defending starts from the front of the team with strikers closing people down and making it hard for defenders to build from the back."

by **alessandromagno** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:02 am

If the inconceivable happens and we finish outside the top 4 this season, I wonder if Gerrard will start all over again. :blues:

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