Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:40 am

peewee wrote:scientists etcso now saint you are saying there should be a certain percentage of balck managers by law, it seems thats what you are getting at, the only way to make sure there are black manager will be to make a law, but then which clubs will be the ones who employ them?

or maybe a club as a business have the right to choose who they want to work for them, they have the right to choose the most qualified person to lead them, if that person is white then so be it, does that make them racist?

saint is your girlfriend white? if the answer is yes why dont you give an asian girl a chance to go out with you? is it because she chooses not to or are you racist?

im tired of all this rubbish about race being an issue, ace, how many asian, black, chinese doctors and dentists do we have, how many ethnic scientists, how many teachers, how many business owners (both small and large)? the answer is a lot, is it because they were margianalised in their ghettos and therefore didnt get the same chance as all us whites (haha thats a joke, how many white people also live in slums with no prospects, is that because of race). its because the worked for what they have, they respected our life style, they embraced it and they made something of themselves through hard work instead of complaining and having a gimme atttitude.

people mention race now as a byeword and by doing that they miss the bigger issue, that some people are lazy feckers who dont want to work, some people choose their lifestyle, everything to do with minorities is not racial guys, there may be other reasons but the easiest avenue to go down is to scream racism and then try and justify it.

Where have I said anything about a certain percentage being black ? All I have said is that the decision should be based on ABILITY not colour.

I was talking in football not dentists, doctors , scientists etc.

I am married to a white woman because I happen to find white women more attractive than other races. That doesnt mean im a racist. If I went out into the big wide world more no doubt my view on attractive women may change.

So every black footballer is a lazy fecker who doesnt want to work? Sorry apart from 3

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:44 am

peewee wrote:
s@int wrote:
Its not just white people who are racist against non white people FFS !!

What the f.uck has that got to do with anything ?

i think what he is getting at is that the pakistanis and the indians hate each other, the sikhs hate the pakistanis etc etc etc.

people sometimes forget this and this racism is a white mans disease

Again I will ask what the f.uck has that got to do with this argument? How many Asians, Sikhs and pakistanis run football clubs ? I was and am trying to talk about racism in sport and in football in particular not Racism in this country.

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:45 am

come on saint you know the point i am getting at, so if a chairman fancies a white manager all of a sudden its racism, but you fancy a white woman and thats ok.

its personal choice mate, if you are good enough then you are good enough, race doesnt always enter into it.

of course there are racists, i will never deny that but when people like me and you get accused of racism for making an innocent comment or employing a white person ahead of a minority we are then plcaed in the same category as the BNP by idiots who have nothing better to do.

all this rubbish has to stop

by **The Ace1983** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:47 am

peewee wrote:I'm tired of all this rubbish about race being an issue, ace, how many asian, black, chinese doctors and dentists do we have, how many ethnic scientists, how many teachers, how many business owners (both small and large)? the answer is a lot, is it because they were margianalised in their ghettos and therefore didnt get the same chance as all us whites (haha thats a joke, how many white people also live in slums with no prospects, is that because of race). its because the worked for what they have, they respected our life style, they embraced it and they made something of themselves through hard work instead of complaining and having a gimme atttitude.

A fair point. But with a 90% white majority in this country there are always going to be poor white people. As for black and asian doctors, I would imagine that the majority of these people either trained abroad or came from originally wealthy families. As little as fifteen years ago, if you went to a state school, you weren't expected to attend university and the top colleges like Oxford, Cambridge, UoL and the rest got a lot of money from importing foreign students (especially from the Commonwealth where English was a still widely used language). I'm not saying that people from impoverished backgrounds have no chance, but logically, they have far fewer oppertunities because, no matter what colour, they have resticted education and employment prospects.

But what percentage of the black or asian or oriental population of Great Britain have £40,000 a year jobs or higher? And how many of those are not self employed/made, and how many work outside of their own community? I should imagine that the number becomes a fraction of fraction.

There is some truth in what you say, but the big picture is still wrong, and it still comes down to multiculturalism.

by **The Ace1983** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:57 am

peewee wrote:come on saint you know the point i am getting at, so if a chairman fancies a white manager all of a sudden its racism, but you fancy a white woman and thats ok.

its personal choice mate, if you are good enough then you are good enough, race doesnt always enter into it.

of course there are racists, i will never deny that but when people like me and you get accused of racism for making an innocent comment or employing a white person ahead of a minority we are then plcaed in the same category as the BNP by idiots who have nothing better to do.

all this rubbish has to stop

You're right. Race doesn't always come into it. And sometimes racism is used by politicians, police and the media to make more of something than there actually is. If a white guy murders a black guy, is it always a "racially motivated crime"? Of course not. But some are.

And the idea that "if you're good enough, you'll get the job, no matter what" is in the majority true. But racism still exists in the work place. To just dismiss that is fool hardy. Racism is still around us and these days I see it getting worse instead of better. People discriminate based on race all the time, but I can't see this existing in the managerial selections of the premiership. It comes down to the best man for the job.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:07 am

peewee wrote:come on saint you know the point i am getting at, so if a chairman fancies a white manager all of a sudden its racism, but you fancy a white woman and thats ok.

its personal choice mate, if you are good enough then you are good enough, race doesnt always enter into it.

of course there are racists, i will never deny that but when people like me and you get accused of racism for making an innocent comment or employing a white person ahead of a minority we are then plcaed in the same category as the BNP by idiots who have nothing better to do.

all this rubbish has to stop

It should come down to personal choice but too often in football that choice is limited not by the ability of the person but by their colour.

I have a white wife because her abilities,( looks and personality )are superior to a person of a different race to me. If I had wanted someone with a brain no doubt I would have picked someone else. (i'm dead if she reads this!)

I think the the pendulum has swung too far in favour of the asians and pakistanis etc in most things in England ,except in football management ,where it is still like in golf clubs in the 60's ...... no blacks or coloureds allowed except as waiters and bar staff.

The race card is played too often and usually to gain an unfair advantage over the rest of us. In football however I still think that they have a point.

I have not accused you of being racist but if I wasn't white I probably would, not because you are ,but because accusing you would put you in a defensive position. If you dont like what someone says ,call them a racist and they have to spend the next 5 hours defending their position.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:29 am

The ratio of black managers to white ones is poor, but what we need to remember is that in 2001 (latest stats I could find), only 7.9% of Britain was non-white.

I'm sure that if you added up all the white and non-white managers then took a percentage, it would be somewhere near that figure.

I guess it will be slightly less, but cultural differences account for most of that.

To most lads in Britain, footy is the be all and end all as they grow up.
Like it or not, few Asians are bothered about it, prefering cricket in the main.

The opportunities are there for all. Britain is probably the best country to be in if you're non-white.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:32 am

The Ace1983 wrote:
peewee wrote:I'm tired of all this rubbish about race being an issue, ace, how many asian, black, chinese doctors and dentists do we have, how many ethnic scientists, how many teachers, how many business owners (both small and large)? the answer is a lot, is it because they were margianalised in their ghettos and therefore didnt get the same chance as all us whites (haha thats a joke, how many white people also live in slums with no prospects, is that because of race). its because the worked for what they have, they respected our life style, they embraced it and they made something of themselves through hard work instead of complaining and having a gimme atttitude.

A fair point. But with a 90% white majority in this country there are always going to be poor white people. As for black and asian doctors, I would imagine that the majority of these people either trained abroad or came from originally wealthy families. As little as fifteen years ago, if you went to a state school, you weren't expected to attend university and the top colleges like Oxford, Cambridge, UoL and the rest got a lot of money from importing foreign students (especially from the Commonwealth where English was a still widely used language). I'm not saying that people from impoverished backgrounds have no chance, but logically, they have far fewer oppertunities because, no matter what colour, they have resticted education and employment prospects.

But what percentage of the black or asian or oriental population of Great Britain have £40,000 a year jobs or higher? And how many of those are not self employed/made, and how many work outside of their own community? I should imagine that the number becomes a fraction of fraction.

There is some truth in what you say, but the big picture is still wrong, and it still comes down to multiculturalism.

I'm not saying you are implying this, it just brings me to this point:

How many footballers/managers went to Oxford, etc?

At the end of the day, football is the original working-class sport, open to all budgets.

Regarding your point, the fact is it is much easier for a non-white person to get a job today than a white person.

Ads in the job papers actually say "Only open to Ethnic Minorities", or, "No white applicants" etc.
It's sickening, and for all the spouting about "representation" of the community, I guarantee that more than 7.9% of the nation's workforce is non-white.

The Government needs to take a long hard look at itself. It's all very well drumming this cr*p, but how many top politicians are black/Asian, etc?

One rule for one...

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:40 am

i can argue against racism very easily, my girlfriend of 4 years is not white and i live in another country, hardly the actions of a racist

i have always believed and i always will that in this day and age we all get the same chances in life, you either take it or you dont, its really that simple.

my grandfather on my dads side moved to liverpool from lithuania after the first world war, my family name is werbisky. after the war my uncle tried to get a job and was rejected every time, the family changed the name to werby to sound less eastern european and he had success straight away, i have no doubt that still goes on but now i believe its more to do with the fear of trouble from a worker rather that a belief that they will be unable to do a job.

all this arguing from the minorities has in my opinion a reverse effect, an employer i believe will go for the safest option and not the option that he percieves will be up in arms over every issue, or if he has to dismiss the employee for whatever reason he will fear that the old race card will be played.

i think the minorities are shooting themselves in the foot with all this equality rubbish, sure i want them to be equal but while they can play the race card so easily and people fall for it i fear they will never be equal, in fact they are ahead of us as we cant play that race card.

i am a minority, i am a white man in asia, i NEVER use my race as a tool to get what i want, anyway i know what the response would be here, i would get laughed out and told this is thailand, thai laws and thai cultures, they respect our culture but i also have to respect theirs and they will not change their culture to suit me, im happy with that, if i didnt like it i can move to another country, its that simple. by the same token if a group of white british people didnt like an aspect of british culture it wouldnt be changed.

i just think the whole thing has gone too far, sure we had an empire, sure we have some debts to repay, sure we brought people in to do the menial jobs but all this was many years ago. britain is in danger of losing its identity and that makes me very sad, although i am in fact half lithuanian (my dad was also born there) i consider myself to be 100% english and that will never change, so why cant the asians feel the same way about being british?

is it a racial thing or is it a religious thing, now this is the crux of the issue, i believe its not racial, i beleive its religion that keeps us apart.

anyway i digress, why are there no black managers in english football? simply because they dont want to be managers or because clubs look for experienced managers of wich none are black. i think thats the top and bottom of it to be honest.

why are there no asian footballers coming through the ranks? i cant answer this but do you honestly believe that a club would turn down the chance to take on a player with ability because of his race or religion?

in relation to work there is all sorts of discrimination to be fair, against women, against disabled, against regional accents, against fat people, against stupid people, against ethnics, but its always the race issue that is highlighted. this is why i honeslty believe that they have now shot themselves in the foot they have pushed too far now and reached the point wher people will stand against it (even with the fear of prison for expressing a belief)

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:46 am

s@int wrote:When I was young I was often told that the reason black professional footballers were rare, is that they had strong heads but weak legs and couldn't standup to the hard physical tackles. While we all appreciate that that was a load of bull**** now, there are still plenty that believe that black people have mental weaknesses etc even after all these years.

There is a similar excuse used for the almost total lack of Asians in the professional ranks. They are too thin and weak to stand up to the riguers of the game etc. One look at the Pakistani fast bowlers should be enough to convince people that this is a fallacy. So is it just a culture thing, that they dont like or want to play football?

The almost total lack of Black, coloured or asian MANAGERS seems to indicate that racism still plays a part in football. Paul Ince has just become manager of a lower league club , would he have received better offers if he wasnt black?

The only black manager of a top English club I can think of is Gullitt and he was Dutch so it somehow doesnt seem to count . Surely by now after 35 years of black players in the top division we should have more.

Is English football just hiding its inherent racism?

Good thread S@int, although I dont agree with this "inherent racism" thing. It ponders thought, but if you take sport as a whole and not just football. You can see some kind of pattern emerging like............

Athletics: 100m 200m 400m, long distance, these are events mainly won by black people.

1) Because they like it.
2) Because they are good at it.

Swimming and skiing and other such events are mainly won by white people, for the same reasons as previous 1 & 2.

Boxing, Basketball, grid iron, is prodominantly played in high quality by black people. The reason generally why White yellow or purple skinned people dont play the sports aswell is simply because they arent good enough! I know there are good White boxers out there but more generally and traditionally the best ones are black.

With White people they seem to participate in a wider range of sports from Darts

snooker, Cricket, Rugby, Football, Tennis etc etc. Maybe it has something to do with where the sport originated from, mainly England and back then England was prodominantly White.

But as time has gone on more cultures have taken up these sports and rightly so, the amount of Black, brown or whatever skin colour they maybe have participated in these sports, and for me its showing. Perfect example Wenger fielded 10 black players against Leeds I think it was, and only Seaman as it usually is

was White.

Down at grassroots level, I have a mate who plays football for the county (he's White) but he reckons there are so many good strong skillful black players at that level, he wouldnt be suprised in years to come see the England team full of black players. That is a big call but one he thinks is possible, and wouldnt be suprised at. As for the Pakistarni's I've wondered why more dont play football, and heard that racism is a factor as to whether some kids make it or not. So I asked my same mate why he thought it was, and he said that the're just sh!t (generally) at football.

But on the whole I think if your good enough you'll generally make the grade including managment.

White boys are Sh!t at Summo restling

by **woof woof !** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:02 am

Many AFRICAN countries employ WHITE managers to run their national team . Are those counties being racist

or just smart ?

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:16 am

woof woof ! wrote:Many AFRICAN countries employ WHITE managers to run their national team . Are those counties being racist or just smart ?

They are being smart because they realise that the black managers probably dont have the same ABILITY or experience as the white manager they chose. i.e. England chose Sven a Swede because he was perceived as being better than all the English managers at the time(who were interested).

To be honest I expected to have been hit with a host of names of black managers of English clubs that I had never heard of, or had forgotten. The fact that I havent only emphasises my point.

90 league clubs times the number of occasions they change their manager and we have named 1 working black manager proves a point. Whether it proves inherent racism or just lack of interest is were we differ.

I have to admit that all my friends and family are white. I dont even know a black, asian or pakistani (maybe that makes me a racist?) So I dont really have a strong opinion on why Asians dont play football etc. As I said in my first post maybe its a cultural thing.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:02 pm

90 league clubs times the number of occasions they change their manager and we have named 1 working black manager proves a point. Whether it proves inherent racism or just lack of interest is were we differ

IF that number were true (and it might be) does that automaticly mean there is racism in football, I personally think you've thought way too much into this S@int.

by **taff** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:18 pm

Saint firstly this is a great thread with some good debates going on and thank for starting it.

Right then

There was a fella called Billy Boston, regarded worldwide as one of the greatest rugby players of any code, of all time. Black lad from Cardiff, went up north as he didnt fancy his chances of the Welsh team of the 50's due to his colour. Bloody disgrace as we lost a great player. Union being amateur and old fashioned had these committee men with some extreme views, Rugby League being a Professional sport took him and he is a legend in Wigan to this day, relatively unknown in Wales.

Colin Charvis, black and English, moved to Wales and opted to play union for Wales, became Welsh captain, black and English, how times have changed especially the English bit

But this is now a professional sport

Hence my argument, the only colour that matters in professional sport is green the colour of money. I will even agree that more could be done etc to get more black managers but what fan would want their club being the one that gets a manager not as good as the one they wanted but they can be proud they are improving things in society.

Football is a brutal sport especially at the highest level, in fact I would say the football is extremely cutting edge in employer relations compared to other industries due to the money and brutal competition. Where else have Europeans integrated together so well and have been doing so for years. It is an extremely mixed workplace with people from all over the world. But if you aint up to it regardless of race, colour whatever you are not in the team end of. Look at the way people are shuddering at the thought og having to have six English players in a premiership team. What if we lost Sissoko and had to play say Hargreaves as a costly replacement, we would be up in arms, up in arms about our black "quota" or up in arms losing a great player to politics.

Other sports mentioned, swimming, well culturally Australia are top dogs now, I wonder why. They are more muscular or have waterproof aerodynamic skin , NO they are basically European but live near water and have a water culture and a sporting culture.

Boxing, well I know a bit about this. I said years ago watch out for eastern europe. Boxing is about poverty and hunger, it is an extremely tough sport and you need amazing hunger and will just to turn pro. Black Americans now are not as poor as Eastern Europeans, they will become the main force in the heavyweights. In lower weights look at the mexicans. Now black Americans come from some bad areas but incomparable to Mexico and other Latin American countries, these guys fight for food and respect and are tough as nails.

Rocky Marciano fought after Joe Louis so came across the best black Americans, but he was a tough as nails Italian American from a tough neighbourhood who battered everyone in front of him, he was more intimidating than Tyson.

There will be some forms of racism on all sides but in professional sport it boils down to hunger and are you the best simple as, Money is a great leveller.

One last thing. Is Rafa racist, binned Diouf, Diao, Pongolle on loan, Traore gone, Cisse gone. He is from Madrid after all, well known right wing area.

IS HE BOLLOX. The only criticism is he should have got rid of some of them sooner

Oh and Pellegrino, Morientes, Josemi the guy hates Latins.

Mind you I wish that in the nineties we should have been racist against scandinavians

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:24 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
90 league clubs times the number of occasions they change their manager and we have named 1 working black manager proves a point. Whether it proves inherent racism or just lack of interest is were we differ

IF that number were true (and it might be) does that automaticly mean there is racism in football, I personally think you've thought way too much into this S@int.

I read John Barnes autobiography the other day and it was that which got me thinking. Obviously he sees things from a different angle than most of us do, but he does mention that many black international players are and have been trying for a long time to get managers jobs and not even getting a reply.

If the number is correct (which I dont know) I would say that its a very good indicator.

If I had thought more about it I would have constructed a better argument!

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