More sense - From tomkins

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Bad Bob » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:05 pm

You raise some good points in this one too, mate, so I'll weigh in once more...

bigmick wrote:My point is that whichever way the season pans out, mistakes have been made already and if Rafa thinks that making six changes per game will bring success (he doesn't by the way) then he is mistaken.

I'll make a prediction here and now, when we do start winning football matches consistently the run will coincide with Rafa picking a settled team. Before some wag comes on here and says that it's ninety odd games since he hasn't changed the team, I know. I reiterate, nobody to the best of my knowledge is suggesting that you play the same team in absolutely every single game. What I am suggesting is that wholesale changes every game for no reason are a mistake.


Okay, so I've had a look at our team selections (again) and it seems clear that the biggest changes to the teamsheet have come for our Champions League qualifiers (8 against MH in Ukraine!) and group stage games (6 against PSV; 5 against Galatasaray).  I'll elaborate more on this below but it suggests to me that Rafa is finally moving toward having distinctlly different CL and Prem teams, albeit with a lot of overlap down the spine of the side.

Settled back fours become stronger. Settled midfield quartets play with more fluency. Strikers in a run of form like to play as much as they can, that's the way it has always been. Almost always, right-footed players like to play either in the centre or on the right-hand side. Almost always, you work out where is the best and most effective position for your best player to play and pick your team accordingly around that presumption.


No question but there have been some unique challenges this season--some of which Rafa has dealt with well, others poorly, IMO.  The emergence of Agger has presented a significant obstacle to the "play a settled back four" tactic.  Initially, introduced as a stand-in for the injured Carragher, Agger has performed exceptionally well and has forced his way into the side, most frequently at Sami's expense.  Some may call for Rafa to be brutal now and drop Sami for Agger but, for whatever reason, Rafa seems more interested in rotating those two in both the league and the CL.  We'll have to see how that develops as we go this campaign.  At LB, had Aurelio deputized for Riise as convincingly as Agger has done for Carragher, we might see a similar rotation policy.  As it stands, however, JAR has been selected for virtually every game that he's been fit for, suggesting that he is still the first-choice LB.  Nonetheless, his extended absence has contributed to an unsettled back four, because Aurelio and Warnock have both occupied the position to varying effect.

The midfield seems to be the biggest mess at the moment, primarily because the LM position is problematic.  Selection patterns indicate that Alonso and Sissoko are undoubtedly Rafa's nailed on first choice CM pairing.  Stevie would be equally entrenched on the right were it not clear that Rafa has more faith in Pennant for tough away matches than he does in any of his LM options.  This has led him to play Stevie on the left--a mistake in my mind because it narrows the scope of Stevie's impact slightly and messes with the balance and fluency of the team greatly.  I think it would be better to blood Gonzales or Aurelio at LM for a run of games or bite the bullet and put Garcia out there, defensive lapses or no.

Up front, I think Rafa has been fairly consistent: Bellamy and Kuyt have started more games than anyone of our strikers, despite Bellamy's goal drought and Crouch's torrid form.  Ironically, this is one area where Rafa has not chopped and changed much since Kuyt's arrival.

The thing is, Rafa realises this as well. Since the silliness of the first couple of matches he has tried to pick a more settled eleven.


Yes, a more settled side is emerging if you look at the selections over the course of the season to date.  For League games, the side generally looks like this:

                      Reina

Finnan   Carragher   Hyypia/Agger   Riise

Gerrard    Alonso        Sissoko          ??

              Bellamy    Kuyt

In particular, Gerrard's started 4 league games on the right, 2 on the left and one in the middle (when Sissoko was injured).  I think Rafa sees Stevie as his RM in the league and has only swapped him to the left for really tough, physical away games because of his doubts about his other LM options in those circumstances.

For Champions League games, the following pattern may be emerging (although it is still a bit early to tell and I think Rafa approaches the group stage differently than the qualifying stage):

                       Reina

Finnan   Carragher   Agger/Hyypia  ??

Pennant   Alonso    Gerrard/Sissoko   ??

           Crouch/Bellamy  Kuyt

Note that Pennant has played every CL game so far.  By contrast, Stevie's played two.  For those who think Rafa's focusing on the CL at the expense of the league, this stat suggests the opposite to me: he will gamble resting his key players in the qualifiers and group stages of the CL in order to have them available for tough league matches (Chelsea right after PSV and Bolton right after Galatasaray, for example).  It also suggests that Rafa is prepared to field a slightly different side in the CL: one with more width and attacking flair through the middle (by moving Stevie back to CM when he has played).  Still early days yet but a pattern seems to be emerging.

Despite what the scientists of the game tell us, each game is not played in isolation. Mess up the selection in one game and miss out on a victory and it carries over to the next game. Concede an equalising  goal in the dying seconds of one home game and you can bet you'll be desperately hanging on in the final minutes of the next match, "oh no not again" is the anxious cry of the crowd and it filters down to the players. Don't win your first away game, which should have been an absolute penalty kick fixture and it carries forward into your next away game or three.


Totally agree but don't think the problem is simply down to rotation.

What irks me most is that Rafa knows himself I am sure that he has contributed to a poor start with his tinkering. Obviously, International breaks and the aftermath of the world Cup have had a disruptive effect but given that, is the answer to mess around with the team and positions unnecessarily?

We are still paying a heavy price for the daft selections in the Sheffield United and Macabi Haifa home game in my view.


You and I have been through this one so I won't rehash at length here.  Suffice to say that, while I agree with your analyses of where those two matches went wrong (and team selection was part of the problem), I still contend that the teams put out in each of those matches had the quality to win comfortably and yet failed to.  So, as far as I'm concerned, indifferent form and mental lapses on the part of the players, has more to do with how we've gotten out of the blocks than does some of Rafa's selection puzzlers. 

But, heck, that's why this debate is so fun: the issues involved are complex, heavily entangled and worth a careful going over.  :D
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Postby bigmick » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:03 pm

Top posts as always Bob mate and I'll come back at ya later :D Not before though I've jumped in the bath with the kids and gone and had a couple of beers tonight (I finished work today yippee!!). No doubt when you look at the boards tomorrow morning there'll be a slurry and incoherant ramble from me to get your teeth into. Top posts mate anyhow.
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:10 pm

bigmick wrote:Top posts as always Bob mate and I'll come back at ya later :D Not before though I've jumped in the bath with the kids and gone and had a couple of beers tonight (I finished work today yippee!!). No doubt when you look at the boards tomorrow morning there'll be a slurry and incoherant ramble from me to get your teeth into. Top posts mate anyhow.

I await it with baited breath, amigo!  :D
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Postby bigmick » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:31 am

My problems with the rotational system are long held. This season if I'm honest they began in the charity shield (yes I know we won it and played well but I think in the interests of fairness it's only right that I admit to my misgivings before the game). I felt we should have played something close to our strongest team. As it was we started with Zenden and Sissoko in central midfield but despite this, dominated the game and won with a bit to spare.

Tactical genius or a response to Mourinho's claim before the game that he wasn't going to start with his strongest team? Shrewdness or an understandable reluctance to risk getting beaten by an obviously second string team who to quote their manager, were "weeks away" from peak fitness?

Whatever, I think it didn't do us any favours at all. It made us forget the lessons of last season. It made us believe that we could put out a vastly inferior team against Sheffield United and get a result, where contrary to the impression some have given we were extremely fortunate to get a point. It made us forget the lessons of early last season which surely were that while some minor tinkering can be sustained by a winning team, mass rotations result in tears.

Just like some have no difficulty with the considered quibbles which I have consistently voiced, I have no problems with the robust defence of rotation which the likes of Bob advances. Some however beggar belief on this subject. "Six months ago Rafa was a hero but now....... " etc etc is indicative of a group of people who have been brainwashed by a stunning Champions League triumph into believing it's all the result of rotation.

It's not of course. I would ask those same people, what team would you play tomorrow if you really wanted to win the game? None of this "In Rafa we trust" and all that old boll0cks, what team would you pick. My suspicion is that it would include Gerrard either on the right or in the centre, Zenden would't be in the final eighty six and that Crouch would start with somebody else up top. If we won the game, you would like as not start with pretty much the same team in the next game. Welcome to my World.
Last edited by bigmick on Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zarababe » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:40 am

Apologies if this has alreay been posted ( haven't read the thread soz)interesting take on rotataion by the Boss:

ROTATION POLICY IS A WINNER
Daily Post 13 October 2006 

RAFAEL BENITEZ insists his rotation policy was the decisive factor in winning the Spanish title when he was manager at Valencia. 

And he has repeated that he will not change the system now he is manager at Liverpool, having not fielded the same side for 94 consecutive matches.
 
The Anfield manager said: "In Spain I had the experience in Valencia when in the first year we won La Liga after 31 years without winning the league, and against Real Madrid, Barcelona, Deportivo and Atletico Madrid.
 
"And why? Because we were changing the team every game. In January we were eight points behind Real Madrid and we finished six or seven points ahead.
 
"Why? Because we were fresh at the end of the season, the last two or three months we were really, really fresh and we were playing at another level.
 
"We try to explain to our players why we decide to rotate. It's not possible to play 60-65 games 100% fit, it's impossible now with the tempo and the football.
 
"People talk about 20, 30, 50 years ago but it's different, now you can play with a really, really high tempo and after you finish the game you might need to fly to another country to play another really, really important game.
 
"Then you come back and a few days later play another important game against a tough team, with a lot of physical contact."
THE BRENDAN REVOLUTION IS UPON US !

KING KENNY.. Always LEGEND !

RAFA.. MADE THE PEOPLE HAPPY !

Miss YOU Phil-Drummer - RIP YNWA

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Postby Espionage » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:33 am

IMHO i think that people some over-estimate the value of having a "settled" team.  The only time that you should really have a settled team is if you have 11 stand out players.  Meaning each of those players is better off playing (even at an 80% fitness level) then playing the back-up (because the back-up is sh!t).  Players train together every day so I dont believe that they need "game time" together to form a bond.  Sure it helps, but not any where as much as some people tend to think it does.

My (argueably low valuation) placed on having a "settled team" is the main reason why I see nothing wrong with our current rotation policy.
Last edited by Espionage on Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby joko » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:49 am

i don't like most of tomkins writing, he should be living in a perfect world, i just want to read a balance and rrealistic situation, he doesn't have a right to calm us down everytime we play cr@p :angry:
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Postby joko » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:02 pm

bigmick wrote:I must confess I find the "glass is half full" thrust of every Tompkins post a little wearing at times. If you didn't know better you would think that picking up one point in four away games, in the process scoring only goal from an extremely dodgy penalty (I really can't go with the theory that the award was "legitamate", lets be sensible here the referee made a mistake) was all part of Rafa's grand plan, a deliberate ploy. Maybe he wanted to lure the others into a false sense of security.

"Rafa made a mistake? Nah mate, your a fairweather knee-jerker. Wait till you see us in the second half of the season, you'll be GLAD we lost those games and drew with Sheffield United then. We'll be sprinting about the pitch with gay abandon, everyone else will be treading water while we will be overwhelming all and sundry 'cos we'll be FRESH. Fresher than a spring lamb, we'll be leaping like salmon to head in those corners, sprinting around like gazelles to every loose ball whereas our rivals will be wearing concrete boots, overcome by the fatigue of playing in a non-rotated formation."

Sorry I don't buy it. I don't buy it because it's palpably b0ll0cks. Sorry if it makes me fall out with most people on here, but it's nothing short of delusional nonsense. We didn't win the Champions League because Rafa rotated the team. FFS, we were a couple of minutes from going out in the group stages until we fashioned an unlikely comeback culminating in Gerrard busting the net in the dying seconds against Olympiacos. Did we come back in the final because Milan were too tired? Did Gudjohnson miss by inches at Anfield because he had played too many games? If Milan were too tired, how come they were 3-0 up at half time and cruising? Sorry but I don't buy us winning the Champions League was down to rotation at all.

It really kills me when rafa says "nobody can play sixty games a season" and everyone goes "yeah exactly, top man Rafa". Nobody is suggesting that anybody, even Gerrard plays in every single game. Look at us sofar though, we have got players who are injured and players who have been injured. You have to rotate naturally through injuries so why make six changes in a game just for the sake of it?

If you are going to "rest" a player, do it one or two at a time. Do it when they are actually tired. Do it when the team has established at least a modicum of fluency and momentum. People need to realise, we are still in the race because everybody else is dropping points (which probably means it's a weaker league this term) and not because of some tactical masterstroke. While it's true to say that if we win the league people will forget about the start, it's also true to say that it won't mean the mistakes didn't happen. It's also true to say if we do win the league, it will most definately not be because of rotation, it will be despite it.

ha! just seen it

dear sir bigmick,

i like your writing much better than tomkins!



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Postby bigmick » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:33 pm

Another point I was considering in answer to Bobs very interesting stats as to how many games people have played against the number they were available for. I think these stats are misleading and miss the point.

When gerrard starts wide left, for me that is positional rotation. OK he's playing, but wide left? It does nothing in my opinion for cohesive team play, either short or long term. It still means that Finnan is playing with a different partner game to game (and out of all our defenders the right-back's form is just about at the lowest ebb in my view), and that the left-back (whoever that is in a given match) is getting used to a different partner.

Similarly on the occasions when we have gone five in midfield and one up top. It might well be the same personel, but it's a change to the system which is not improving our fluency. Indeed in the Bolton and Chelsea games we decided to play Gerrard wide-left AND play 4-5-1.

Anyways we might as well look on the bright side. We are eight points behind but at least the lads aren't feeling too tired :;):
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Postby red37 » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:57 pm

neither would i if i was picking up between 40-100k a week...truth is, quite a few of them look tired of something else entirely.
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Postby Bad Bob » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:31 pm

bigmick wrote:Another point I was considering in answer to Bobs very interesting stats as to how many games people have played against the number they were available for. I think these stats are misleading and miss the point.

Fair point, mate.  I considered going "whole hog" with the stats--who started, what position, who subbed in for whom, where they played, etc--but then nobody would read my posts (instead of the 3-4 that do now  :D )!  You're right, though--it's not just about starts, it's also about where players start and who's around them in the various "partnerships" that develop on the pitch. 

Christ, why can't the lads just put the ball in the net more times than their opponents each week and spare us the need to micro-analyze every aspect of the team (not that we wouldn't, mind...we'd just do it with a smile instead of a scowl)!  :D
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Postby red37 » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:35 pm

for all the Paul Tomkins followers out there:

"An Anfield Anthology"

i did buy his "GOLDEN PAST RED FUTURE" and found it to be decent reading material, maybe i'll give this a go..its out early 2007 mind...so no stampeding!

http://www.paultomkins.com/
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