Liverpool FC Forum

by **zarababe** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:07 am

Blimey is this thread still alive

is Bin Laden though

On a serious note, I heard a member of the 'Newsnight' panel talk about the scam of WMD and how the anhilation of Iraq has become a catalyst for the 'axis of evil' countries, rushing to acquire the BOMB to ensure that their fates will not go the way of Iraq.

Is having a nuclear capability the only way to ensure that the 'axis of evil' countries (Iran included) won't be attacked, that the way of diplomacy will be pursued to no end?

Has I-RAK become the point from which the confidence in the UN has died (died many many years ago really), Nuclear profileration and the need to acquire such capability has become a matter of neccessity to preserve the so-called 'rogue states'. I think a dangerous situation now exists following N Korea's 'success'. What are the American's gonna do? The people of N Korea are 'apparently' already eating the remains of dead rats to survive , while the government has 'liberated' them by acquiring Nuclear status..

It don't bode well for the future people..

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:32 am

zarababe wrote:The people of N Korea are 'apparently' already eating the remains of dead rats to survive

thats just media hype to be honest, the people in poorer nations will always have to resort to eating things we abhore, here in thailand they eat insects and enjoy them, there are also millions here in poverty,

dont be fooled into thinking the money spent on defence there forces these people to live in squalor, there are more deep lying reasons for that and its no different to people in england eating out of bins. of course a news programme in north korea can show homeless in england and foster the appearence that we all do it. rememeber the bread queues is moscow, i know a russian who lived there during communism who never saw a bread queue in his life

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:42 am

peewee wrote:
zarababe wrote:The people of N Korea are 'apparently' already eating the remains of dead rats to survive

thats just media hype to be honest, the people in poorer nations will always have to resort to eating things we abhore, here in thailand they eat insects and enjoy them, there are also millions here in poverty,

dont be fooled into thinking the money spent on defence there forces these people to live in squalor, there are more deep lying reasons for that and its no different to people in england eating out of bins. of course a news programme in north korea can show homeless in england and foster the appearence that we all do it. rememeber the bread queues is moscow, i know a russian who lived there during communism who never saw a bread queue in his life

That arguement definately goes both ways Peewee though, if a government is corrupt the people of its land can and do suffer. I'm pretty sure Ethiopia, Rwanda and Kenya have such corruption in there governments that there people suffer because of it.
Way off topic here but ....... That live aid, and all that fundraising stuff we do yearly in Britain. Alot of the money lined the pockets of politicians in those African country. One politician brought thirteen brand new Mercedes and given himself and his merry men an added bonus in there pay packet, while the civilians starved, fact.

So although you say its alot of media coverage, which alot of the time the media can twist and make very powerful images and reports. This sort of thing happening in N.Korea wouldnt suprise me.

AT A GLANCE
North Korea's vital signs:
Leader: Kim Jong-il
Capital: Pyongyang
Area: 120,540 sq km
Arable land: 14%
Population: 23 million
GDP :$22 billion (2002 est)
in purchasing power parity
Growth rate: 1% (2002 est)
Economic sectors: Agriculture 30%, industry 32%, services 38%
Agriculture: Grains, pulses, cattle, pigs, vegetables, opium
Resources: Coal, iron ore, other minerals, hydropower
Exports: Minerals, manufactures (including arms), textiles, fishery products
Imports: Petroleum, coking coal, machinery & equipment, grain

Sources: EIA, CIA, IMF

(CNN) -- As historic six-way talks begin in Beijing, North Korea's shrinking economy continues to languish, with relief agencies warning of further food shortages ahead for its 23 million people.

The North's decrepit economy suffers from a lack of energy, transport infrastructure and many basic foodstuffs. About a third of its people depend on outside food aid.

Analysts have warned that North Korea's already low standard of living is deteriorating as economic activity dries up, and there is little scope for market-based reforms.

And despite an early crop harvest that was better than last year, the U.N. agency World Food Program said earlier this month that the food situation would likely worsen in September and October.

It said food aid from South Korea in August -- part of a 100,000-ton contribution of maize -- eased the immediate hunger situation, but shortages are projected for the next six months in cereals, pulses, sugar and oil.

It said there would likely be a 65,000-ton shortfall between now and January 2004, even with contributions from Italy, the United States and Russia.

South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun promised "massive economic aid" to North Korea in his Liberation Day speech on August 15, provided Pyongyang gives up its nuclear weapons ambitions.

This is at the heart of the talks taking place in Beijing, where the North wants a guarantee of non-aggression from the United States and where Washington wants Pyongyang to abandon its nuclear program.

An agreement might encourage North Korea to reduce its military budget. It has more than a million men and women under arms -- one of the largest standing armies in the world.

Economic analysts such as HSBC's Mike Newton in Hong Kong have already warned that if North Korea's economy completely collapses under the weight of military spending, South Korea will face the turmoil of an unplanned reunification.

Estimates of the cost of that reunification range up to $250 billion in the first 10 years, extending out to $840 billion over a 40 to 50-year period.

Electricity -- along with a grid to distribute it -- is a key need for Pyongyang.

Under a 1995 agreement, the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Corp (KEDO) agreed to supply the North with 500,000 tonnes of heavy fuel oil a year in exchange for the freezing of Pyongyang's nuclear program.

But deliveries came to an end after North Korea said in October last year it had continued its nuclear weapons program in secret since 1994.

Narcotics, weapons

Noth Korea is known to sell missiles on the global arms market.
One aspect of North Korea's economy that is in the spotlight is its alleged reliance on narcotics, counterfeiting and the sale of weapons to raise hard currency.

Defectors from the North claim that some of the fertilizer provided by aid agencies is diverted to farms that grow opium for the drug trade.

The organization said to be in control of this operation, Room 39 of the North's governing Workers Party, was implicated in the seizure of a vessel off the Australian coast by Australian forces in April. The ship, the Pong So, was found to be carrying heroin worth $50 million.

While South Korea says it is hard to confirm Pyongyang's involvement in drug-running, gun-running and counterfeiting, other observers in Japan, Hong Kong and the United States say its activities are well known.

They say stimulants and counterfeit notes are shipped to gangster organizations in Japan, while narcotics are exported to Hong Kong and then onto wider markets in North America, Asia and Europe. They also claim the North has links to the Russian Mafia.

The United States, Australia and some other countries are planning to hold ship interdiction exercises in the Coral Sea, off the Australian northeast coast, in September in a move that is seen to be directed at North Korean smuggling activities.

According to the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies, U.S. and South Korean military researchers estimate that North Korea exports $500 million of narcotics annually, making it one of the world's largest exporters of opium, heroin and methamphetamines.

As well, North Korea's sale of ballistic missiles to Pakistan, Iran and Middle Eastern countries raised $580 million in 2001, researchers say

On yet another note, as anyone heard anything about our man Bin ?

by **Ciggy** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:53 am

Bamaga man wrote:On yet another note, as anyone heard anything about our man Bin ?

Latest news reports advise that a cell of 4 terrorists has been operating in Liverpool. Police advised earlier today that 3 of the 4 have been detained. The Merseyside Police stated that the terrorists Bin Thievin, Bin Drinkin and Bin Fightin have been arrested on immigration issues.

The Police advise further that they can find no one fitting the description of the fourth cell member, Bin Workin, in the area. Police are confident that anyone who looks like Workin will be very easy to spot in the community.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:02 am

Ciggy wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:On yet another note, as anyone heard anything about our man Bin ?

Latest news reports advise that a cell of 4 terrorists has been operating in Liverpool. Police advised earlier today that 3 of the 4 have been detained. The Merseyside Police stated that the terrorists Bin Thievin, Bin Drinkin and Bin Fightin have been arrested on immigration issues.

The Police advise further that they can find no one fitting the description of the fourth cell member, Bin Workin, in the area. Police are confident that anyone who looks like Workin will be very easy to spot in the community.

Im glad you said that and not me !

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:04 am

Ciggy wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:On yet another note, as anyone heard anything about our man Bin ?

Latest news reports advise that a cell of 4 terrorists has been operating in Liverpool. Police advised earlier today that 3 of the 4 have been detained. The Merseyside Police stated that the terrorists Bin Thievin, Bin Drinkin and Bin Fightin have been arrested on immigration issues.

The Police advise further that they can find no one fitting the description of the fourth cell member, Bin Workin, in the area. Police are confident that anyone who looks like Workin will be very easy to spot in the community.

by **woof woof !** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:14 am

peewee wrote:bread queues is moscow, i know a russian who lived there during communism who never saw a bread queue in his life

Probably because he was standing in the shoe queue .

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:15 am

woof woof ! wrote:
peewee wrote:bread queues is moscow, i know a russian who lived there during communism who never saw a bread queue in his life

Probably because he was standing in the shoe queue .

very good

by **Ciggy** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:15 am

woof woof ! wrote:
peewee wrote:bread queues is moscow, i know a russian who lived there during communism who never saw a bread queue in his life

Probably because he was standing in the shoe queue .

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:23 am

The US has issued a revised draft of a UN Security Council resolution, which only envisages non-military sanctions over its reported nuclear test.

Looks like the USA has blinked! The USA will now need another resolution before any military action can be taken against N.Korea. The USA keep drawing lines in the sand, and the Koreans just keep on walking.

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:26 am

we all know that the USA will never initiate military action against north korea mate, they know full well that they will get a good spanking in a conventional conflict with them, and sanctions wont really have that much effect on what is a very insular country anyway.

i am enjoying watching the americans not getting their own way on this one and watching them effectivly squirm and north koreas refusal to play ball

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:38 am

peewee wrote:we all know that the USA will never initiate military action against north korea mate, they know full well that they will get a good spanking in a conventional conflict with them, and sanctions wont really have that much effect on what is a very insular country anyway.

i am enjoying watching the americans not getting their own way on this one and watching them effectivly squirm and north koreas refusal to play ball

I dont think the USA would even contemplate a conventional war with N.Korea. S.Korea would supply the main ground forces and the USA would bomb them with either conventional or tactical warheads.

N.Korea has an army of 1.2million men, S.Korea has about 500k, it would mean too many bodybags if the USA tried to make up the numbers conventionally.

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:43 am

s@int wrote:
peewee wrote:we all know that the USA will never initiate military action against north korea mate, they know full well that they will get a good spanking in a conventional conflict with them, and sanctions wont really have that much effect on what is a very insular country anyway.

i am enjoying watching the americans not getting their own way on this one and watching them effectivly squirm and north koreas refusal to play ball

I dont think the USA would even contemplate a conventional war with N.Korea. S.Korea would supply the main ground forces and the USA would bomb them with either conventional or tactical warheads.

N.Korea has an army of 1.2million men, S.Korea has about 500k, it would mean too many bodybags if the USA tried to make up the numbers conventionally.

the south koreans i know (albeit not many) see the north koreans as their brother and sisters saint

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:49 am

peewee wrote:
s@int wrote:
peewee wrote:we all know that the USA will never initiate military action against north korea mate, they know full well that they will get a good spanking in a conventional conflict with them, and sanctions wont really have that much effect on what is a very insular country anyway.

i am enjoying watching the americans not getting their own way on this one and watching them effectivly squirm and north koreas refusal to play ball

I dont think the USA would even contemplate a conventional war with N.Korea. S.Korea would supply the main ground forces and the USA would bomb them with either conventional or tactical warheads.

N.Korea has an army of 1.2million men, S.Korea has about 500k, it would mean too many bodybags if the USA tried to make up the numbers conventionally.

the south koreans i know (albeit not many) see the north koreans as their brother and sisters saint

I am sure they do as the 38th parallel split was only made because the USA and Russia couldnt decide who had control of the country after Japan was defeated. However as in most civil wars the fighting in the last "police action" was merciless on both sides, and I wouldnt hold much hope of it being different this time.

In August of this year N.Korea said that the ceasefire of 1953 was null and void. Doesnt lead me to believe there will be peace and love in the near future.

by **JBG** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:22 am

woof woof ! wrote:
JBG wrote:You say that I am looking at history with half an eye closed. Well, if that is said, then objectively, it must be pointed out that the US had placed nuclear missiles in Turkey, a similar proximity to the Soviet Union as Cuba was to the US.

My arguement against Lando's point is that the US is just as likely to use nuclear weapons than the men at the helm of North Korea and Iran.

I didn't say " I am looking at history with half an eye closed."

something wrong with your eyesight perhaps

I said quite plainly "lets not blur the truth by viewing history with one eye closed " The key words there being blur and truth.

As for your reference to Turkey , It wasn't part of the original post , by all means lob it in ,who's denying it ? just bear in mind as you apparently seek to justify the Soviet action.

Ankara - Moscow 1107 miles
Havana - Miami 90 miles

The Soviets already had nuclear subs operating within a few hundred miles of America's east and west coasts , why decide to park some nuclear warheads in Cuba if it wasn't just to test America's resolve ?

As for your assertion that the US is just as likely to use nuclear weapons as the men at the helm of North Korea . I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree ,otherwise I can see this turning into another pointless round of futile pontificating on the charater of George W and Kim Jong ll .

imo one's a retard the others just a headcase.

Woof, quit being pedantic and disengenous.

I have not justified the Soviet Union's actions. The planned positioning of missiles in Cuba was a reckless move on the part of the Soviet leadership and was probably the most dangerous move in world history.

My initial point was that I was attempting a rebuttal to Lando's point that the Americans would not use nuclear weapons whereas North Korea and Iran would. My point is that if you look at history, there is precedent there that America has used weapons in the past and were prepared to use nuclear weapons during the Cuban missile crisis and also looked at a preventive attack on the Soviet Union (the Soviet Union did likewise). My point is that you cannot discount the US using nuclear weapons because they did so in the past and considered using them on a number of times since (McArthur advocated their use against China, and when he was sacked by Truman there was a brief fear that McArthur would lead a coup against the White House, Kennedy considered their use - albeit smaller scale battlefield weapons - during the Cuban missile crisis and when he decided to give diplomacy another chance and delayed the invasion elements in the US military considered overthrowing him, and George Bush senior moved nuclear weapons to the Gulf in 1990-1991 to dissuade Saddam using WMD). Another element in my point is that while the US secretly and behind closed doors considered pre-emptive action in the past no American president until George W. Bush came public about it and made it US policy. Analysts have suggested that in any war with Iran or North Korea, the use of small tactical nuclear weapons may be considered by the US given the particular geography of those two countries and the location of armouries in rough mountaineous terrain.

My own feeling is that I cannot see North Korea using nukes. If they used nukes their country would be utterly obliterated. My own feeling is that they have developed them to use as a massive bargaining chip in an ultimate Korean peace settlement, i.e. North Korea will give up their nuclear programme in return for the lifting of sanctions and the restoration of North Korea into the diplomatic community, just like what Lybia is doing in giving up their nuclear programme.

Iran is more complicated as their nuclear programme is, in my opinion, directed both at the US but also against Israel. I don't think Iran will be able to develop a bomb in any event as I think either Israel or the US will attempt to whipe out their nuclear programme before it reaches a stage where it can be weaponised. If the US doesn't do it, Israel will, and Israel would risk a regional war to do this.

In my opinion the most worrying nuclear programmes are those of Pakistan and India, as any future conflict there could quickly esculate to a nuclear exchange.

And finally woof, come off it: you cannot compare Moscow, the capital of the Soviet Union to Miami, the capital of Florida! The distance from Cuba to Washington is roughly in the same ball park as the distance from Turkey to Moscow. In fact, the Turkish nukes threatened a more strategically important part of the Soviet Union - the Baku oilfields - than the proposed Soviet nukes in Cuba.

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