Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ciggy** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:37 am

Does Rafa prefer us to do better in Europe than in the premiership?
My mum has been saying this since he came to Liverpool, and I disagreed with her over it, but I am starting to see where she is coming from.

In Europe we have the tools to win the CL again, that game against Sheffield United was played with one eye on the game against Maccabi Haifa 3 days later where we won 2-1 but could'nt get the same result against the Blades a poor 1-1 which we got from a Fowler pen.

The game against Everton we had PSV 3 days later we get beat 3-0 by the bitters, then go to Eindhoven and it was 0-0, a game which we should have won in hindsight and played Gerrard at the start, but there was one eye on the Chelsea game 4 days later that we needed to win also, and should have.

Spurs we won 3-0 5 days later against Galatasaray it was 3-2 could have been 5 or 6 nil had we not have took our foot off the peddle and thought it was done and dusted.

There is a sort of pattern the year we won it our league form was awful, if we had not have won it finishing 5th was not good enough for a club of our size, but needless to say we went on to win it.

We have had a really bad start to this season and apart from Galatasaray giving us a bit of a nail biting time, it would'nt suprise me in the slightest if we won it again this season.

Our players seem more comfortable on the European stage even the english players weve got. They dont seem up for them sh.itty 12.45 kick offs, or grinding out results against sh.ite clubs like Bolton and Everton.

I know its Rafa's 3rd year in charge and we are all very grateful for the success he has brought us, but I think the prem should be his new challenge we know he is a perfectionist, and stubborn at the same time.

But maybe the European Cup is more special to have on your CV than the premiership trophey abroad.
Maybe some of our players are not up for the marathon and rather the sprint e.g. Cup runs a few games then a trophey, rather than the long hard haul over 38 games.

This is no way a dig at Rafa before anyone jumps down my throat its a simple question do you think he prefers to win the CL rather than the prem.

Up next is Blackburn Rovers on the 14th 4 days later away to Bordeaux then 4 days later away to the mancs, it will be very interesting to see the rotations for these 3 fixtures and what Rafa feels what games will be more important to win.
I expect the game against Blackburn will be a team with most of them that are not on International duty.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:06 am

The simple answer to that is NO. I dont think Rafa would ever think like that to be honest, like you said he's a perfectionist. So why wouldnt he want to perfect, something we have won since 1990 surely that would be on the top of his agenda. Plus I think he knows how much it means to the fans and the club to put Liverpool F.C back ontop of English football, that doubt has never crossed my mind. I can't imagine the board giving Rafa the job if he was to put most of his efforts into the CL. The club all has to pull together in winning the league, and if Rafa isnt pulling in the same direction he shouldnt of taken the job if that were true, but thankfully I doubt very much it is.

If you take a look at some of the squad players he has brought like Sissoko, Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant and possibly Gonzalez. They are just as much suited if not more to English football than European. I think he's finding a balance of players who can do a job anywhere in Europe and in England and TBH with the quality of players in the squad (although its not firing on all cyliniders yet), I think we're certainly heading in the right direction.

by **Espionage** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:12 am

I think that Rafa knows that the Premiership is what he will be measured at the end of the day. The champions league is just something extra. You cant build a team that is specific to the Champions league because if we forget about the league (and dont win the CL) then we are not in the CL the next year which defeats the purpose of having a squad thats good in Europe.

TBH i would be very concerned if we didnt play strong team agaist Maccabi Haifa because the effects on missing out on being in the CL are huge. Its not just the money, there are a whole heap of unmeasureable benefits in terms of global support, willingness to sign/remain over other clubs.
I was extremely unhappy that we didnt get that 4th spot 2 years ago. But we made a gamble in order to possibly get further in the CL: Rafa saw it as a chance were we had nothing to lose, we were most likely not going to finish outside the top 4, now lets see how far we can go make as much money doing it as we can. Take it one game at a time (as Rafa would say). Maybe we should have gone out earlier in the CL, but even taking into account the extra games that we played we still should have been able to finish above Everton.

In the end its a tough road that Rafa has ahead of him because he has to rotate to some degree. I imagine that we will see a pretty even amount of rotation across both competitions this season. But anyway we dont really have a clear player for every position so this should be much less of an issue now that we have a huge squad.

by **matrix** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:17 am

rafa would not admit it, but i think deep down the champions league is the trophy he regards the most important to win, the rotation system is always done with europe in mind

i know we would all take the premiership...to win the title from chelski, and manure, would realy be something...

but who ever knows what rafa is thinking

the way we chop and change the side, to win the league will be verry hard...

last week bolton, not playing crouch from the start !!! ffs could anyone believe that, the robot was born for those dirty fuc.ks :;):

by **Thehobo** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:14 am

Rafa wants the league more in my opinion

but he knows the importance of champions league, ei keeping the top players, money etc

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:19 am

I think that he preffers to win the CL, but I don't think he doesn't take the EPL seriously or put it on the background of importance. It would be foolish to center his efforts on the CL as it's very difficult to win it.

Winning the CL means more money, more reputation, and more players willing to come to your club. Winning the EPL is more important in England, but not in Europe

by **Leonidas08** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:46 am

Rafa wants as many wins under his belt as possible, he would love to win the Cup this year though.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:31 pm

No. I think Rafa wants both and his rotation policy is designed for just that. Think back to the Istanbul year. We had such a thin squad that Rafa had little choice but to put his eggs in one basket. He played kids in the Carling Cup, did the same in the FA Cup, and tried to play a fairly settled senior team in both the league and CL (because our bench was poor). The result? We could not do the business in the league but did quite nicely in the CL.

My point is that even with top athletes it's really hard to perform well in both competitions over the course of the whole season (Arsenal found this out last year). What is needed is a large squad of comparably high quality across the board in order to rotate and keep players fresh. Don't forget that our impressive league runs last season came when we were on break from the CL and out of the competition altogether.

So, unless people want Rafa to bin the CL altogether--and the money that comes with it--and focus exclusively on the league, we're always going to have set out a team in one competition with an eye on the other. Squad rotation is not a lark, it's a coping strategy for staying competitive in two long, grueling and hard-to-win competitions. It will pay off!

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:03 pm

Bad Bob wrote:No. I think Rafa wants both and his rotation policy is designed for just that. Think back to the Istanbul year. We had such a thin squad that Rafa had little choice but to put his eggs in one basket. He played kids in the Carling Cup, did the same in the FA Cup, and tried to play a fairly settled senior team in both the league and CL (because our bench was poor). The result? We could not do the business in the league but did quite nicely in the CL.

My point is that even with top athletes it's really hard to perform well in both competitions over the course of the whole season (Arsenal found this out last year). What is needed is a large squad of comparably high quality across the board in order to rotate and keep players fresh. Don't forget that our impressive league runs last season came when we were on break from the CL and out of the competition altogether.

So, unless people want Rafa to bin the CL altogether--and the money that comes with it--and focus exclusively on the league, we're always going to have set out a team in one competition with an eye on the other. Squad rotation is not a lark, it's a coping strategy for staying competitive in two long, grueling and hard-to-win competitions. It will pay off!

I have no problem with rotation, and I have understood the reasons for it and supported it.

My problem is one of who and when Rafa rotates people.

Some changes I understand such as the Agger,Carragher and Hyypia rotation. Carra hasnt been at his best, Agger is young and still needs care and protection from the mental and physical demands of prem football. Hyypia is an aging star who maybe finds twice a week football becoming too much.

Some of his team changes have been puzzling to say the least. Crouch on fire - so leave him out for 4 games. Bring him back and he scores 2 - then leave him out for next game (saving him for England? I dont think so!)

Gerrard rested for important CL games etc etc.

If Rafa really wanted to rest key players, why make them travel to Europe and sit on a bench. Why not give them a proper rest and leave them out of the squad and back in Liverpool.

I understand if we are to challenge on all fronts we need rotation but rotating the right players at the right time is just as important.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but in my view some of the players rotated have been rotated at the wrong time in the wrong games.

by **babu** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:So, unless people want Rafa to bin the CL altogether--and the money that comes with it--and focus exclusively on the league, we're always going to have set out a team in one competition with an eye on the other. Squad rotation is not a lark, it's a coping strategy for staying competitive in two long, grueling and hard-to-win competitions. It will pay off!

Ciggy you may have hit nail on the head if you ask me. NO direspect to the finest manager we have had in long time.

Badbob i rarely get involved in footie discussions (reason being i know jack :censored:

), but please explain why we can't compete in ECL and the league at the same time? Why can't we play as an english side in the champions league? I know you're saying rotation is coping strategy for a club that is trophy driven, i understand. But why don't we do the same for a settled team.. i mean if it works, don't feck with it until it doesn't work.

I'm not getting up up Rafa, its just i'm used to non-performance=change.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:24 pm

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:No. I think Rafa wants both and his rotation policy is designed for just that. Think back to the Istanbul year. We had such a thin squad that Rafa had little choice but to put his eggs in one basket. He played kids in the Carling Cup, did the same in the FA Cup, and tried to play a fairly settled senior team in both the league and CL (because our bench was poor). The result? We could not do the business in the league but did quite nicely in the CL.

My point is that even with top athletes it's really hard to perform well in both competitions over the course of the whole season (Arsenal found this out last year). What is needed is a large squad of comparably high quality across the board in order to rotate and keep players fresh. Don't forget that our impressive league runs last season came when we were on break from the CL and out of the competition altogether.

So, unless people want Rafa to bin the CL altogether--and the money that comes with it--and focus exclusively on the league, we're always going to have set out a team in one competition with an eye on the other. Squad rotation is not a lark, it's a coping strategy for staying competitive in two long, grueling and hard-to-win competitions. It will pay off!

I have no problem with rotation, and I have understood the reasons for it and supported it.

My problem is one of who and when Rafa rotates people.

Some changes I understand such as the Agger,Carragher and Hyypia rotation. Carra hasnt been at his best, Agger is young and still needs care and protection from the mental and physical demands of prem football. Hyypia is an aging star who maybe finds twice a week football becoming too much.

Some of his team changes have been puzzling to say the least. Crouch on fire - so leave him out for 4 games. Bring him back and he scores 2 - then leave him out for next game (saving him for England? I dont think so!)

Gerrard rested for important CL games etc etc.

If Rafa really wanted to rest key players, why make them travel to Europe and sit on a bench. Why not give them a proper rest and leave them out of the squad and back in Liverpool.

I understand if we are to challenge on all fronts we need rotation but rotating the right players at the right time is just as important.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but in my view some of the players rotated have been rotated at the wrong time in the wrong games.

I absolutely agree with you, Saint. Rotation is not the problem in and of itself. We can probably all agree that a wise rotation policy will serve us well in the course of a long season. The question is, have some of Rafa's rotations been wise? That's a debate for a different thread (or threads) but I think it's fair comment.

My point here is that rotating the squad makes sense if we want to do well--and we do--in both the league and the CL. By and large, I've been alright with Rafa's rotations because I don't feel that he's sacrificing one competition for the sake of the other--in my mind, he's put out competitive teams in both competitions.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:49 pm

babu wrote:please explain why we can't compete in ECL and the league at the same time? Why can't we play as an english side in the champions league? I know you're saying rotation is coping strategy for a club that is trophy driven, i understand. But why don't we do the same for a settled team.. i mean if it works, don't feck with it until it doesn't work.

I'm not getting up up Rafa, its just i'm used to non-performance=change.

Babu, mate, don't misunderstand me...I think we probably can compete for both at the same time this season (although see my caveat below). In fact, this may be the first season where we have a reasonable shot at doing well in both competitions due to the strength and depth of our squad now.

In 2004-2005 we simply did not have the squad to compete in both and our league performances certainly suffered as we progressed further in the CL. Last season we had a deeper squad and probably could have put up a good fight in both but Benfica caught us cold and dumped us out of the CL earlier than we would have expected. Now, I'm not definitively saying that our being knocked out of the CL early was responsible for our sparkling run-in last campaign but it is interesting that we really only looked like world beaters after exiting the Champions League (and after the game or two required to get over the shock of that exit...remember Arsenal away?). Had we progressed further in the CL perhaps we would not have wound up with 80+ points in the league? This season we are stronger and deeper still as a squad and are finally in a position to compete effectively on both fronts over the long term. To do so, however, requires some sort of rotation strategy to keep players fresh during the grueling two-games-a-week parts of the schedule.

As for playing as an English side in the CL, I think we do that. Playing the likes of Crouch and Pennant last week against Galatasaray illustrates that. Thankfully, Rafa does not believe in fielding two distinct sides: a league side and a Champions League side. There's an awful lot of overlap between the teams played in each competition and we play the Liverpool way in both. So, while I agree that wholesale rotation is counter-productive, I still contend that limited rotation, when done correctly, is the way forward for success in both competitions.

Having said all of that, I agree with the likes of Saint and Big Mick, who are suggesting that the rotation policy this season--despite making sense on paper--is serving to unsettle the team in a way that is impeding results. We need to remember that this is a team with a lot of new faces that is learning to play a new and more attacking style of football. There will be, and have been, growing pains--growing pains that our rotation policy is perhaps exacerbating. Rafa, I'm sure, would have hoped that the new lads would bed in faster and that the entire squad would have cottoned on to the new tactics earlier. Fact is, they haven't and the results so far (particularly in the league) underscore this.

So, success in the league and the CL might be a bridge too far in what is, to be honest, a significant transition season for us. Perhaps it is time to play a settled side for a run of games in order to get the results ticking over and boost the confidence. If, ultimately, we fade in the CL and the league down the home stretch as a result of over-extending the key players at this stage, we can at least be sure that the new system has been battle tested and that we will be ready to storm the league and Europe next season. (Not that I'm giving up hope yet on either front this season!)

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:11 pm

you can't prioritise the CL because before you know it your league form will end up suffering (like us in 2005 and arsenal last year) and you'll end up having to win the CL just to get back in it.

ask maureen what he'd rather win. despite being desperate to win the CL, i'm sure he'd say the premiership (mainly because if he bigs up the CL and doesn't win it, he'll be fired).

by **woof woof !** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:29 pm

Ciggy wrote:Does Rafa prefer us to do better in Europe than in the premiership?

I hope not , because the way things are going we might not qualify for next seasons CL . Time for the happy clappy brigade to accuse me of belonging to the Doom and Gloom Brigade . The truth is nevertheless that unless we get our act together (and quick) we will have a real battle on our hands to finish in the top four .

by **Graeme Noble** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:38 pm

I think Raffa probably knows more about European football than English football, at the moment!

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