Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:16 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:On the issue of squad rotation (again), whilst I agree that some of Rafa's decisions early in the season look incorrect with the benefit of hindsight, I still contend that we had the quality on the pitch to see off each of our opponents.

TBH, the squad rotation yesterday was far more alarming to me. Two of our recently settled back four swapped out--that's a very risky move! With Spurs opting for pace and plenty of it up front, Rafa could have looked pretty foolish bringing Sami and and a potentially rusty JAR back into the frame. Add to that a rare start for Gonzales on the left and you have some significant changes from previous matches. But, because we won handily it is not something many people are mentioning. In fact, Rafa is starting to be applauded for selecting a "settled" side!

I highlight this to illustrate how the "chopping and changing" label is very much in the eye of the beholder. Rafa's changes in the last couple of matches have been on par with his rotation policy in the previous matches but the positive results have taken the focus off that hot button issue. It's all very interesting!

Still cant see how Zenden can ever warrant a start at centre midfield...dont get me wrong if he plays i hope he does well. But he wont score many goals from that position...nor is he good enoughin the tackle, he may be neat and tidy in possesion...but so would one of our youth team players...not trying to slate Zenden....just the idea of playing him centre mid away in a game that was obviously going to be a dog fight

Ace, I would agree with you 100% about Zenden. He should only ever play as a last resort in either CM or LM. He's just not got the same ability to impact a game as our other players in either position. As such, any time Rafa plays Zenden ahead of other fit players, I scratch my head. Interestingly, though, out of 9 competitive matches this season, Zenden's only started 3 of them (1 being the Anfield leg of the CL Qualifier against Maccabi Haifa). That tells me that Rafa recognizes his limitations and only uses him in situations where he hopes we have enough quality on the pitch to compensate or when his unique experience might be an asset (as with his start against PSV). In each of his 3 games (Haifa, Sheffield United and PSV), however, I'm not sure I would single him out as the obvious weak link that caused us to drop points. Even with Zenden on the pitch, I would expect us to beat these three sides.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:24 pm

bigmick wrote:All that said, now we have stopped the daft selections and gone for a bit of consistency it's nice to see that the inevitable has happened and we are starting to play a bit better. Curiously, for the midweek Champions League game I would advocate a bit of rotation in that I think it's time Peter Crouch had a game. He was after all the hottest striker around until we successfully rotated him out of form.

It's interesting that you say that, Mick. I've just taken a close look at our starting line-ups for our 9 competitive matches this season. Do you realize that Crouch has only started 3 of those 9 games? Moreover, the big man hasn't started a match for us since the Everton derby.

Compare that to Kuyt's starts (4 out a possible 6 games since he signed) or Bellamy's (7 starts out of 9 games) and it's pretty clear who Rafa's first choice strike partnership is. (Incidentally, Robbie has started 2 out of a possible 9 games.)

I don't have the stats for Crouch coming on as a substitute but my gut sense is that, of late, he either hasn't come on at all (vs Spurs) or has only come on very late in proceedings (vs Newcastle or Chelsea) and has therefore struggled to make an impact.

I know that we need to be ruthless in football but I'd hate to see the lad lose all of the confidence he's built up over the last few months. So, I'm with you--let's pair him with Kuyt (who's starting to find a rich vein of form) on Wednesday and see how they fair against the Turks.

by **alessandromagno** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:43 pm

Give RF a game!

by **Santa** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:55 pm

bigmick wrote:... I've said a couple of times that we over-rotated at the start of the season and dug ourselves into a nice little hole...

...and you could be right. We lost those games so you are entitled to have a dig at the tinkering of Rafa...but if those rotation won us the two games or allowed us to have a strong 2nd half of the season when the other teams have injured or tired players and start dropping points, would you have change your view and proclaim Rafa as a genius? Hindsight is a beautiful thing but to start writing off our chances after 4 games and some even called for Rafa's head is well out of order :no

by **Leonmc0708** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:01 pm

alessandromagno wrote:Give RF a game!

And Ian Rush.

by **alessandromagno** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:03 pm

Do you mean he's over the hill? I reckon he'd have scored 15-20 goals this season if he'd been starting every game.

by **wee_boi888** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:51 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:All that said, now we have stopped the daft selections and gone for a bit of consistency it's nice to see that the inevitable has happened and we are starting to play a bit better. Curiously, for the midweek Champions League game I would advocate a bit of rotation in that I think it's time Peter Crouch had a game. He was after all the hottest striker around until we successfully rotated him out of form.

It's interesting that you say that, Mick. I've just taken a close look at our starting line-ups for our 9 competitive matches this season. Do you realize that Crouch has only started 3 of those 9 games? Moreover, the big man hasn't started a match for us since the Everton derby.

Compare that to Kuyt's starts (4 out a possible 6 games since he signed) or Bellamy's (7 starts out of 9 games) and it's pretty clear who Rafa's first choice strike partnership is. (Incidentally, Robbie has started 2 out of a possible 9 games.)

I don't have the stats for Crouch coming on as a substitute but my gut sense is that, of late, he either hasn't come on at all (vs Spurs) or has only come on very late in proceedings (vs Newcastle or Chelsea) and has therefore struggled to make an impact.

I know that we need to be ruthless in football but I'd hate to see the lad lose all of the confidence he's built up over the last few months. So, I'm with you--let's pair him with Kuyt (who's starting to find a rich vein of form) on Wednesday and see how they fair against the Turks.

I'm suprised with the appearence stats you pulled out there, Bob. Bellamy hasn't been hitting the back of the net, and I reckon it's Rafa trying to play him into form - Having faith in the boy.

He did it with Crouch and with Morientes as well, so I guess I am not totally suprised in hindsight with the number of starts Bellamy has been getting compared to the other strikers.

Kuyt on the other hand is our best striker hands down, and it pretty obvious for everyone. I can't remember which comentator said this, but it was something along the lines of Rafa and Kuyt giving McLaren a headache cos he'll keep crouch off the team...

That I doubt, however. I think he'll be rotated with Crouch a little bit in the next couple of games, once again to play Bellamy into some goalscoring form, and build his confidence.

by **bigmick** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:06 pm

Santa wrote:but if those rotation won us the two games or allowed us to have a strong 2nd half of the season when the other teams have injured or tired players and start dropping points, would you have change your view and proclaim Rafa as a genius? Hindsight is a beautiful thing but to start writing off our chances after 4 games and some even called for Rafa's head is well out of order

No I wouldn't proclaim Rafa as a genius for the over-rotations, even as I said earlier if we went on to win the title. He got it wrong plain and simple and subsequent events won't alter that. As I also said earlier, I actually believe that with the benifit of hindsight he too believes he got it wrong. He is a brilliant manager, the best in the league in my opinion but I still think he got it wrong and I always will, even when we come on strong in the second half of the season.

As for writing off our chances, not many did. I actually said that if we were to lose to Chelsea, we wouldn't be out of the title race but we wouldn't exactly be in it either. Two good home wins have put us in the picture, though the feeling remains that failing to take the earlier games as seriously as we should have will be a regret come the end of the season. It smacks of double standards somewhat for people on the one hand to accuse others of speaking with the benefit of hindsight, after waiting until we had won a couple of games before they surfaced in the debate.

In drawing away to Sheffield United we wasted not just two points (which every other top team will get), but the opportunity to get our season rolling, to get our first away win of the season and establish some momentum. It meant we went to Everton more on the back foot than we should have been. It meant we went to Chelsea desperately needing to avoid defeat which had an effect on our mindset, and means we go to Bolton on Saturday still looking for our first away win of the season and under extreme pressure to find it.

To those who think Rafa got it right I ask this simple question. Would he, with the benefit of hindsight since that is the buzz word of the night, play the same rotated and weakened line-ups in the games against Macabi Haifa at home and then Sheffield United away if he had his time again? The answer quite simply is no.

Whatever anyhow, I'm with Leon on this point at least. Let's quit going on about it and get on board the league title bandwagon.

by **Fowler_E7** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:28 am

bigmick wrote:In drawing away to Sheffield United we wasted not just two points (which every other top team will get

every top team will have a stinker of a result like this one at some point in the season, it always happens in fact Man utd drew with reading 1-1 yesterday its the same situation for them. Personally i think the two defeats we have had were always on the cards as away games versus your rivals are never a an easy 3 pointer. Its also good that we got theses two difficult fixtures out of the way early in the season. As for the Sheffield United game i really cant see that happening again versus another relegation candidate, every top 4 team will have at least one similar result like that, and weve had ours already i think.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:31 am

Got to say Leon, you're absolutely right.

If anyone knows anything about Liverpool, it's that we just don't give up, even if some fat balding bitter b*stard says we're out of it.

F*ck him, f*ck the Russian Mafia, and f*ck the scum.

We'll be the ones with the Premiership come May.

by **The_Rock** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:33 am

bigmick wrote:It smacks of double standards somewhat for people on the one hand to accuse others of speaking with the benefit of hindsight, after waiting until we had won a couple of games before they surfaced in the debate.

........................

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:51 am

Fowler_E7 wrote:
bigmick wrote:In drawing away to Sheffield United we wasted not just two points (which every other top team will get

every top team will have a stinker of a result like this one at some point in the season, it always happens in fact Man utd drew with reading 1-1 yesterday its the same situation for them.

With the greatest respect I think drawing away at Reading, while not being a great result is entirely different to drawing away at Sheffield United. Reading will I fancy stay up, albeit in the bottom half of the table. Sheffield United on the other hand will finish stone cold bottom, relegated by the end of January.

Anyhow, I've done the rotations in those first two competitive games to death and that's my last comment on them I reckon. What's done is done and it's time to move on. If we disagree it's all good, that's what forums are for.

by **Anfield rapper** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:42 am

Andy Gray is a complete knob. I over reacted after the Chelsea game but thats because i'm a Liverpool fan and the games mean so much to me. I knew we had played well and to not get anything out of it after the start we have had this season had me thinking it was all over. But for Andy Gray to write a team off is very unprofessional. I would never write Chelsea or Man U off if they had been in our position. We need to use his words now and be in a position to ram them down his throat at the end of the season. :angry:

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