Liverpool FC Forum

by **Kuyt** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:25 pm

Yes I think too much changes are happening, lets just see who he puts out versus PSV and Chelsea.

I always think he plays Gerrard on the right to accomodate Sissoko and Alonso instead of dropping someone.

Man Utd Play Arsenal Sunday so Man Utd. may drop points.

But if I think we get beat by Chelsea, Our title hopes are hanging by a thread. As two defeats, a draw and one win in your first four, is not championship winning form.

So our team for that one has to be spot on.

:eyebrow

by **Espionage** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:43 am

Good thread. I always thought that its interesting to suggest that Rafa should do nothing and stick to a settled starting 11. What is the difference between people on this forum that think they know a thing or two about football and Rafa? Even if you disregard that fact that he knows what players are looking like in training, he is a successful manager not just because he has good players, he is successful because he makes hard decisions in order to improve the side.

Sven didnt make any hard decisions, he played what everyone thought he should (adding Walcott was done after he already knew he was out, and that meant he didnt have to choose between Defoe and Johnson) and thought that he would remain blameless because he played the "BEST 11". You dont want managers like this that are going to not think outside the box and persist with stupid tactics. Sven was an extreme case that he refused to make any changes, but there are heaps of managers in the middle that pretty much remain blameless becasue they dont really make any controvertial decisions.

People can bitch and whine all they want, Rafa is doing his best, and everytime that one of his changes doesnt work out, it is his fault? Who said that the "logical" choice would have been any better?

Rafa is managing a team in a way that its easy to blame him and not the players. Cases like the Zenden decision against Sheffield are so stupid. "Rafa made a mistake", but how do you know that Alonso would have done any better based on his current form? Rafa would be flamed on here by some people if he didnt start Fowler, because "everyone knows that he would have given it his all etc."
It is easy to point out the limitations of squad rotation, but its very hard to quantify the benefits of security (always a player ready incase of injuries, players leaving etc.), competition (players rise their game) and possible tactical changes.

The point is, Rafa is making decisions that we would not want to make. We have 2 players for every position, and almost every choice is going to be greeted with some anger. I prefer a manager who is not afraid to change things, do what he thinks is right and not be pressured by what the papers think he should do.

by **Pedro O'Maradona** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:17 pm

Espionage wrote:Good thread. I always thought that its interesting to suggest that Rafa should do nothing and stick to a settled starting 11. What is the difference between people on this forum that think they know a thing or two about football and Rafa? Even if you disregard that fact that he knows what players are looking like in training, he is a successful manager not just because he has good players, he is successful because he makes hard decisions in order to improve the side.

Sven didnt make any hard decisions, he played what everyone thought he should (adding Walcott was done after he already knew he was out, and that meant he didnt have to choose between Defoe and Johnson) and thought that he would remain blameless because he played the "BEST 11". You dont want managers like this that are going to not think outside the box and persist with stupid tactics. Sven was an extreme case that he refused to make any changes, but there are heaps of managers in the middle that pretty much remain blameless becasue they dont really make any controvertial decisions.

People can bitch and whine all they want, Rafa is doing his best, and everytime that one of his changes doesnt work out, it is his fault? Who said that the "logical" choice would have been any better?

Rafa is managing a team in a way that its easy to blame him and not the players. Cases like the Zenden decision against Sheffield are so stupid. "Rafa made a mistake", but how do you know that Alonso would have done any better based on his current form? Rafa would be flamed on here by some people if he didnt start Fowler, because "everyone knows that he would have given it his all etc."
It is easy to point out the limitations of squad rotation, but its very hard to quantify the benefits of security (always a player ready incase of injuries, players leaving etc.), competition (players rise their game) and possible tactical changes.

The point is, Rafa is making decisions that we would not want to make. We have 2 players for every position, and almost every choice is going to be greeted with some anger. I prefer a manager who is not afraid to change things, do what he thinks is right and not be pressured by what the papers think he should do.

lots of good points, well put too....

by **Crouchamania** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:28 pm

I know football has changed but I prefer the Shankly/Paisley approach which is that you don't pick your team according to the opposition but you pick your best 11 and let the opposition do the worrying-after all there are 3 substitutes to bring on if things are going awry. Bellamy must always play if fit because his skill and pace will frighten teams and he should have a regular partner to establish an understanding and help the team to establish a rhythm.

The question of confidence also worries me-no matter the fact that the rotation policy is well known -some of the players will take being left out as a sign that they are not playing well enough and it seems Rafa isn't an "arm around the shoulder" kind of Manager.

I like Rafa very much and appreciate the improvement in the quality of the football we're playing but I would like to see a settled team, and that would be: Pepe, Finnan, Carra, Agger, JAR, Stevie,Xabi, Momo, Speedy, Kuyt and Bellamy.

I rate Pennant but bringing him in means leaving the defence exposed now Didi has gone and we need the 3-SG, XA and Momo to protect the back 4. No player is irreplaceable but Didi is a big loss. If only he and Robbie were 25 again.
But this team can go all the way and has the strength in depth and a Manager and players with committment and intelligence. Stuff the opposition, let's show them the Liverpool way.

by **Anfield rapper** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:03 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Good responses so far people and lots of food for thought. Bear with me here as I go through my sense of the players selected for each of our 3 league games so far (I haven't had the pleasure of seeing either CL qualifier so won't comment on those).

1) Sheffield United v. LFC

Reina: a no-brainer; must be selected every game if fit
Kromkamp: a necessary sub due to Finnan's injury
Carragher: another no-brainer
Hyypia: ditto
Riise: ditto
Gerrard (RM): this one's always up for debate but I have no problem with Gerrard at RM, provided the CM pairing is Sissoko and Alonso
Sissoko: another no-brainer
Zenden: Rafa's big mistake in this match for me. If Alonso needs resting, play Gerrard at CM and start Pennant at RM every time
Aurelio(LM): perhaps a strange choice given LB is his preferred position but he has the quality to play LM and looks a bit more settled than Gonzales at the moment, so good decision for me
Bellamy: no argument here from me
Fowler : of the two, probably the one to make way for Crouch (Big Mick remains spot on with this assessment); another selection mistake from Rafa

So, as Mick says, this was the game where Rafa got a couple of key decisions wrong in the selection and we dropped vital points. For me, though, the team we put out still had the quality to beat Sheffield United and didn't get it done. As Bamaga Man says, it's easy to blame the selection but that doesn't mean that's the root cause of the poor result. Moving on...

2) LFC v. West Ham

Reina: see above
Finnan: no-brainer
Agger: necessary sub due to injury but he was immense
Hyypia: no-brainer
Aurelio: whether you're convinced by him defensively or not (I am), he had to play due to injuries to Riise and Warnock
Pennant: the right choice
Gerrard: now we're talking--Momo's hurt so Gerrard moves central to partner Alonso and Zenden takes a seat
Alonso: a no-brainer and I mean that. The stick Xabi's getting of late is well OTT, for me, as he's still our most cultured footballer, even if he's not yet back to his imperious best
Garcia: a possible question mark here but I think Rafa's right to be cautious with Gonzales given his performances to date and Garcia still has plenty offer, even from a wide position
Bellamy: no argument again
Crouch: the world's most in-form striker, nuff said

There's not one selection here I would argue with and the only substitution that troubled me was bringing Zenden on for Pennant late in the match. Yet, the result probably slightly papers over the fact that the lads still hadn't gelled and found their rhthym as a unit.

Everton v. LFC

Reina: see above (and repeat for the entire season IMO)
Finnan: see above
Carragher: hindsight is 20/20 people. Had Carragher sat and we shipped 3 to the bitters many would have been incandescent with outrage on here. If I'm Rafa and Carra's training, he's the first name down on the teamsheet for a derby. Oh, and I, for one, am not blaming his lack of fitness for the poor display yesterday. His tackling back on AJ in the box proved his ankle was fine. And, even with a dodgy ankle he should have had no trouble putting that ball into Row Z. Any other day and even a one-legged Carra has what it takes to shut Everton down. Yesterday was just flukey.
Hyypia: see above
Aurelio: some may have started Riise or Warnock but it's not clear whether either were fit enough to start (or sub in, as it would seem!). A sound decision, for me.
Gerrard (RM): with Momo and Xabi both fit and with both knowing how to approach a derby, it made sense to start Stevie out wide--more so because he'd just spent a week playing out there for England
Sissoko: had to play
Alonso: had to play (see above). He was immense in the derby last year and his partnership with Momo is tried and tested (unlike a Gerrard Sissoko CM partnership).
Garcia: see above, regarding Rafa's clear hesitancy to throw Gonzales in at the deep end so far this campaign. Oh, and Garcia did score a beauty in the last derby.
Crouch: he'd scored 3 goals since his winner against West Ham. Thus, starting the world's in-form striker was a no-brainer, for me.
Fowler: again, hindsight is 20/20. If this old derby warrior had rolled back the years and put another one over on Everton, no one would be doubting Rafa's genius. As it turned out, he and Crouch were slow and rather toothless up front, making us wonder what kind of damage Bellamy or Kuyt might have done. Still, I find it hard to argue with selecting Robbie for a derby.

As I've said in the match thread, I really can't argue with this team selection. And, were it not for some awful defensive errors--exacerbated by some alehouse tackling that Poll chose to ignore--we might be celebrating a much nicer result today. But, those errors were made and they were made by defenders (and a keeper) we have grown to rely on week in, week out to keep opponents at bay and allow the results to keep ticking over. Our defensive woes yesterday had nothing to do with team selection but they are part of a worrying trend this season that needs to be sorted out, sharpish.

So, again I say that our disjointed performances to date are not the product of squad rotation but, rather, are the product of an stop-start schedule, some injuries to vital personnel, the need to bed new players in, and the fundamental fact that, to a man (Crouchy aside), the lads are not yet playing at the level they are capable of.

I agree with most of what you said but in the everton game i would have prefered Bellamy to Fowler. He just got more energy thats not hindsight thats fact, and he would have had their defence shitting themselves. I don't think Crouch plays very well with Fowler has theres no real pace there. My choice would have been Bellamy and Crouch with Fowler on the bench ready to come on for Crouch late on and see what he could do against a tired everton defence.

by **Graeme Noble** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:14 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:Sensible rotation is needed at the top clubs, but there should be a core to the team that shouldn’t really change unless people are banned, injured or seriously fatigued.

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia

Gerrard Alonso Sissoko

I think there is scope to rotate the rest, but we should not sacrifice a good balance in the team.

I would completely agree with that core of players but I would be tempted to add one of Bellamy or Kuyt based on yesterday's lead-footed display up front.

For the sake of argument, here is the squad I would pick virtually every week if all were fit and available:

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise

Gerrard Alonso Sissoko Kewell

Bellamy Kuyt

Subs: Dudek, Crouch, Pennant, Aurelio/Gonzales, Agger

For really tough games against the likes of Chelsea or the Mancs, I might be tempted to revert to a 4-1-4-1:

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise

Alonso

Pennant Gerrard Sissoko Kewell

Kuyt

Subs: Dudek, Bellamy, Crouch, Aurelio/Garcia, Agger

Funnily enough, apart from the changes forced by the Riise and Kewell injuries, the rest of the above players have featured quite a bit so far (with Kuyt still being bedded in slowly). I think that Rafa's got his "core group" already figured out and that his "tactical" rotation policy will be confined to one of the striker positions and to LM for the foreseeable.

Those team selections are spot on there.

by **Pedro O'Maradona** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:38 am

someone explain why gerrard wasnt playing in first eleven tonight.....and dont tell me resting him for chelsea......coz i dont want to hear it....if he gets tired take him off......

by **stmichael** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:43 am

Pedro O'Maradona wrote:someone explain why gerrard wasnt playing in first eleven tonight.....and dont tell me resting him for chelsea......coz i dont want to hear it....if he gets tired take him off......

i honestly don't know. it's not like he needed resting. he's one of the fittest players around.

gerrard has now only started ONE of our last seven CL away games

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:51 am

stmichael wrote:
Pedro O'Maradona wrote:someone explain why gerrard wasnt playing in first eleven tonight.....and dont tell me resting him for chelsea......coz i dont want to hear it....if he gets tired take him off......

i honestly don't know. it's not like he needed resting. he's one of the fittest players around.

gerrard has now only started ONE of our last seven CL away games

It could be anything.

HAppen he had the sh*ts and couldn't wait more than 30 minutes between dumps!!!!

I very much doubt it's anything to worry about.

Rafa probably didn't want to risk him for the injury aspect.

by **Pedro O'Maradona** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:11 am

im being controversial here but I think Rafa is sometimes too cagey....he goes very defensive in away games, it must have killed him to play 2 up front....(do a keegan and dont bother with defenders play robbie, crouch, kuyt, and bellamy!

)

by **Pedro O'Maradona** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:15 am

stmichael wrote:
Pedro O'Maradona wrote:someone explain why gerrard wasnt playing in first eleven tonight.....and dont tell me resting him for chelsea......coz i dont want to hear it....if he gets tired take him off......

i honestly don't know. it's not like he needed resting. he's one of the fittest players around.

gerrard has now only started ONE of our last seven CL away games

thats quite a statistic....are u john motson in disguise? but it makes me think that perhaps rafas policy is keep it tight so at the back as to not have an attacking minded midfielder like stevie perhaps.....I dunno tho i think Rafa can be overly cautious at times.......

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:54 pm

Starting Zenden ahead of both Alonso and Gerrard against PSV was a puzzler. Here I am defending his rotation policy to the hilt and he pulls that out of the hat...thanks Rafa!

Nonetheless, I'm still a fan of reasonable rotation in the creative positions: out wide and up front. Starting Zenden ahead of a fit Alonso, Gerrard or Sissoko in midfield will always raise an eyebrow for me, though and I think we sacrificed a lot of the impotus in that match as a result. In a one-off situation I'll live with it. Should Zenden start against the chavs though...

by **Red Soul** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:05 pm

I think it's a huge mistake to bemoan the rotation policy as the cause for our current indifferent form, and I have no doubt that people will be praising it towards the end of the season when we can put 11 fresh men on the field against 11 battle-weary, exhausted 40-game veterans.

What Rafa has done is nothing short of awesome. He's assembled a team that doesn't consist of a starting 11 and several lower quality backups, but 22 players who are each good enough to contend for their position. I believe that the big picture is to get this squad to be able to play as a cohesive, well-drilled unit no matter who is in those positions, a machine that loses none of it's efficiency or end product regardless of which particular parts are fitted. The team must be used to Pennant playing on the right as they are with Gerrard. They must be used to having Agger sitting in the centre of defence as they are with Sami. Obviously, this is going to take some time, but I reckon it'll happen sooner rather than later.

There is also the fact that we have had an influx of new players. While Pennant and Bellamy should bed in fairly quickly, having had experience in the Premiership, they are having to familiarise themselves with a completely different team to the ones they played for. Our other acquisitions will take slightly longer, but they are obviously quality players and I'm confident they will also adjust to the Premiership. But it's going to take more than three or four games into the season before we see the benefits they will undoubtedly bring.

We should also take into account that this season has arrived on the back of a World Cup, and since we are such a good side with a huge amount of talented players, we had lots of representation out there. This meant that Rafa didn't have a great deal of pre-season training time with many of them, and some of them will obviously be feeling the effects of having played such a number of matches close together. The rotation policy will cater for that, and allow players to regain full fitness without a discernible drop in quality of our team.

We've also had injuries, more than a few spots of bad luck, and crammed fixture lists to contend with.

In short, stop moaning about the rotation policy that's going to win us the Premiership at some point during the next few years. Instead, revel in the fact that we've got 20+ players who, to a man, are good enough to wear that red shirt.

by **Red Soul** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:14 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Starting Zenden ahead of both Alonso and Gerrard against PSV was a puzzler.

It was kind of logical when you think about it, as Zenden has first-hand experience of Dutch football. This is probably also why Rafa chose this match to hand Kuyt his first start.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:16 pm

Red Soul wrote:I think it's a huge mistake to bemoan the rotation policy as the cause for our current indifferent form, and I have no doubt that people will be praising it towards the end of the season when we can put 11 fresh men on the field against 11 battle-weary, exhausted 40-game veterans.

What Rafa has done is nothing short of awesome. He's assembled a team that doesn't consist of a starting 11 and several lower quality backups, but 22 players who are each good enough to contend for their position. I believe that the big picture is to get this squad to be able to play as a cohesive, well-drilled unit no matter who is in those positions, a machine that loses none of it's efficiency or end product regardless of which particular parts are fitted. The team must be used to Pennant playing on the right as they are with Gerrard. They must be used to having Agger sitting in the centre of defence as they are with Sami. Obviously, this is going to take some time, but I reckon it'll happen sooner rather than later.

There is also the fact that we have had an influx of new players. While Pennant and Bellamy should bed in fairly quickly, having had experience in the Premiership, they are having to familiarise themselves with a completely different team to the ones they played for. Our other acquisitions will take slightly longer, but they are obviously quality players and I'm confident they will also adjust to the Premiership. But it's going to take more than three or four games into the season before we see the benefits they will undoubtedly bring.

We should also take into account that this season has arrived on the back of a World Cup, and since we are such a good side with a huge amount of talented players, we had lots of representation out there. This meant that Rafa didn't have a great deal of pre-season training time with many of them, and some of them will obviously be feeling the effects of having played such a number of matches close together. The rotation policy will cater for that, and allow players to regain full fitness without a discernible drop in quality of our team.

We've also had injuries, more than a few spots of bad luck, and crammed fixture lists to contend with.

In short, stop moaning about the rotation policy that's going to win us the Premiership at some point during the next few years. Instead, revel in the fact that we've got 20+ players who, to a man, are good enough to wear that red shirt.

Sound post, that. Good read.

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