Liverpool FC Forum

by **DonnieDarko** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:40 pm

I think the problem is we just have a lot of new faces at anfield and we are experiencing growing pains. It will take time for these new players to settle in the team and we will not be at our best until then.

Everton went through the same thing last year. I think the 2007-2008 season will be ours to win with the addition of a Right back over the summer.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:43 pm

Good responses so far people and lots of food for thought. Bear with me here as I go through my sense of the players selected for each of our 3 league games so far (I haven't had the pleasure of seeing either CL qualifier so won't comment on those).

1) Sheffield United v. LFC

Reina: a no-brainer; must be selected every game if fit
Kromkamp: a necessary sub due to Finnan's injury
Carragher: another no-brainer
Hyypia: ditto
Riise: ditto
Gerrard (RM): this one's always up for debate but I have no problem with Gerrard at RM, provided the CM pairing is Sissoko and Alonso
Sissoko: another no-brainer
Zenden: Rafa's big mistake in this match for me. If Alonso needs resting, play Gerrard at CM and start Pennant at RM every time
Aurelio(LM): perhaps a strange choice given LB is his preferred position but he has the quality to play LM and looks a bit more settled than Gonzales at the moment, so good decision for me
Bellamy: no argument here from me
Fowler : of the two, probably the one to make way for Crouch (Big Mick remains spot on with this assessment); another selection mistake from Rafa

So, as Mick says, this was the game where Rafa got a couple of key decisions wrong in the selection and we dropped vital points. For me, though, the team we put out still had the quality to beat Sheffield United and didn't get it done. As Bamaga Man says, it's easy to blame the selection but that doesn't mean that's the root cause of the poor result. Moving on...

2) LFC v. West Ham

Reina: see above
Finnan: no-brainer
Agger: necessary sub due to injury but he was immense
Hyypia: no-brainer
Aurelio: whether you're convinced by him defensively or not (I am), he had to play due to injuries to Riise and Warnock
Pennant: the right choice
Gerrard: now we're talking--Momo's hurt so Gerrard moves central to partner Alonso and Zenden takes a seat
Alonso: a no-brainer and I mean that. The stick Xabi's getting of late is well OTT, for me, as he's still our most cultured footballer, even if he's not yet back to his imperious best
Garcia: a possible question mark here but I think Rafa's right to be cautious with Gonzales given his performances to date and Garcia still has plenty offer, even from a wide position
Bellamy: no argument again
Crouch: the world's most in-form striker, nuff said

There's not one selection here I would argue with and the only substitution that troubled me was bringing Zenden on for Pennant late in the match. Yet, the result probably slightly papers over the fact that the lads still hadn't gelled and found their rhthym as a unit.

Everton v. LFC

Reina: see above (and repeat for the entire season IMO)
Finnan: see above
Carragher: hindsight is 20/20 people. Had Carragher sat and we shipped 3 to the bitters many would have been incandescent with outrage on here. If I'm Rafa and Carra's training, he's the first name down on the teamsheet for a derby. Oh, and I, for one, am not blaming his lack of fitness for the poor display yesterday. His tackling back on AJ in the box proved his ankle was fine. And, even with a dodgy ankle he should have had no trouble putting that ball into Row Z. Any other day and even a one-legged Carra has what it takes to shut Everton down. Yesterday was just flukey.
Hyypia: see above
Aurelio: some may have started Riise or Warnock but it's not clear whether either were fit enough to start (or sub in, as it would seem!). A sound decision, for me.
Gerrard (RM): with Momo and Xabi both fit and with both knowing how to approach a derby, it made sense to start Stevie out wide--more so because he'd just spent a week playing out there for England
Sissoko: had to play
Alonso: had to play (see above). He was immense in the derby last year and his partnership with Momo is tried and tested (unlike a Gerrard Sissoko CM partnership).
Garcia: see above, regarding Rafa's clear hesitancy to throw Gonzales in at the deep end so far this campaign. Oh, and Garcia did score a beauty in the last derby.
Crouch: he'd scored 3 goals since his winner against West Ham. Thus, starting the world's in-form striker was a no-brainer, for me.
Fowler: again, hindsight is 20/20. If this old derby warrior had rolled back the years and put another one over on Everton, no one would be doubting Rafa's genius. As it turned out, he and Crouch were slow and rather toothless up front, making us wonder what kind of damage Bellamy or Kuyt might have done. Still, I find it hard to argue with selecting Robbie for a derby.

As I've said in the match thread, I really can't argue with this team selection. And, were it not for some awful defensive errors--exacerbated by some alehouse tackling that Poll chose to ignore--we might be celebrating a much nicer result today. But, those errors were made and they were made by defenders (and a keeper) we have grown to rely on week in, week out to keep opponents at bay and allow the results to keep ticking over. Our defensive woes yesterday had nothing to do with team selection but they are part of a worrying trend this season that needs to be sorted out, sharpish.

So, again I say that our disjointed performances to date are not the product of squad rotation but, rather, are the product of an stop-start schedule, some injuries to vital personnel, the need to bed new players in, and the fundamental fact that, to a man (Crouchy aside), the lads are not yet playing at the level they are capable of.

by **stmichael** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:08 pm

my main critisism of rafa is he himself says 'take one game at a time, win one game at a time and take it from there' but continually he picks teams with one eye on the next game.

no bellemy and speedy on the bench as they are obviously being resting for the midweek game against PSV. picking two slow forwards also played into everton's hands.

but seriously rafa isn't going to change, he rotates so we all may as well get used to it.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:11 pm

Sensible rotation is needed at the top clubs, but there should be a core to the team that shouldn’t really change unless people are banned, injured or seriously fatigued.

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia

Gerrard Alonso Sissoko

I think there is scope to rotate the rest, but we should not sacrifice a good balance in the team.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:27 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:Sensible rotation is needed at the top clubs, but there should be a core to the team that shouldn’t really change unless people are banned, injured or seriously fatigued.

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia

Gerrard Alonso Sissoko

I think there is scope to rotate the rest, but we should not sacrifice a good balance in the team.

I would completely agree with that core of players but I would be tempted to add one of Bellamy or Kuyt based on yesterday's lead-footed display up front.

For the sake of argument, here is the squad I would pick virtually every week if all were fit and available:

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise

Gerrard Alonso Sissoko Kewell

Bellamy Kuyt

Subs: Dudek, Crouch, Pennant, Aurelio/Gonzales, Agger

For really tough games against the likes of Chelsea or the Mancs, I might be tempted to revert to a 4-1-4-1:

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise

Alonso

Pennant Gerrard Sissoko Kewell

Kuyt

Subs: Dudek, Bellamy, Crouch, Aurelio/Garcia, Agger

Funnily enough, apart from the changes forced by the Riise and Kewell injuries, the rest of the above players have featured quite a bit so far (with Kuyt still being bedded in slowly). I think that Rafa's got his "core group" already figured out and that his "tactical" rotation policy will be confined to one of the striker positions and to LM for the foreseeable.

by **Rush** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:29 pm

I might be sticking me neck out with this one, but do Chelsea, Man U or Arsenal do much rotating? Living as I do in Germany, I only get to see the games that Premiere show (pay tv) Every time Chelsea or Man U are shown it always seems to be the same starting 11, unless injuries force a change. Am I mistaken or is it so.?

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:07 pm

Good post BadBob, I have already posted much the same thoughts in another thread (just not as good) so I wont repeat them.

Sheff U - Zenden had just played well in a good win against Chelsea, and Fowler deserved his chance after last seasons performances and his midweek performance against Lincoln. I presume Rafa picked the team expecting to be able to make tactical substitutions if necessary, not injury forced substitutions.

West Ham - If you are going to play Garcia at all ,I would say that West Ham at home would be the perfect match to play him. Not some ultra physical game away against Blackburn or Bolton.

Everton - Robbie has gone from saviour to kicking post in 2 games ?Hes a scouser,has great experience , scores goals and was the only striker who hadnt played midweek. Garcia was maybe played in this one because he is a big game player, scores great goals and had scored for Spain earlier in the week.

So as far as I can see even the few players you picked out as perhaps being the weaker links were hardly that.

The team has played below par preseason and since the season started, we have also had a lot of bad luck. End of story.

by **alessandromagno** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:21 pm

In theory it's great, but the system hasn't been perfected yet by Rafa (in England) and I'm beginning to wonder if rotation will ever work as well in England as in Spain.

by **stmichael** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:07 pm

alessandromagno wrote:In theory it's great, but the system hasn't been perfected yet by Rafa (in England) and I'm beginning to wonder if rotation will ever work as well in England as in Spain.

But the thing is, when he was at Valencia he never rotated his team much because he had a small squad. However his first eleven were phenomenal as a unit (he only played with one upfront remember) and overtook both Madrid and Barca who had spent millions. He also did this after ditching Mendieta (who was the best midfielder in Europe at the time).

No-one is beyond reproach, not even Rafa himself. I've slated him in the past after the dabacles at Burnley and Palace. The thing is though, with many on here he goes from being the greatest coach since Shanks one minute, to some daft, crazy tinkerman who hasn't a clue, the next.

He either knows what he's doing, or he doesn't. He either gets it right or wong. And after what he's achieved here in a pretty short space of time, and also in his management career, I'm pretty certain I know the answer.

But the thing is after all that, like everyone else, he's human, and mistakes can and do happen. But for people just to lay the blame for today squarely at the feet of the boss is just completely and utterly crazy.

We had four out of five members of last years amazing defence playing, a midfield containing two of the best midfielders on the planet, another who is as highly rated as there as when it comes to young players, and another who's scored goals in an FA Cup semi-final and also a Champions League quarter final and who is a regular for one of the top national teams in the world. Add that to the hottest striker on the planet right now () and a legend who's looking in the best shape he's been in for 10 years, then surely there was enough there to not just win the match, but absolutely destroy the opposition?

Ok, he should have gone with pace (should in my book, but then I'm not one of the best managers in the world), but decided we were better off going another route. He might have been better not playing Carra, fresh back from his inury, and playing the in form Agger instead - but this is Carra we're talking about, the lad who'd die for the club, against our bitterest rivals.

But like I said earlier, hindsight is a wonderful thing. There's nothing wrong with criticism, as long as it's constructive.

by **Red Indian** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:22 pm

Great post St Mick

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:31 pm

The biggest mistake that Rafa has made since coming to Liverpool is believing his players when they say they are fit to play(especially in big matches)We have had a string of occasions now in which a player has been brought back too early and made either an early exit or a bad mistake.

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:02 pm

Good thread Bad Bob, it is valiant to open a thread like this after a hard defeat. I agree what you're saying at some extent.

I also think that rotations are a good idea. We have a deep squad and many players received minutes, that's necessary. Some not regular players were given minutes in the pre season, and that also makes sense, as preseason is the time to decide and test when somebody might help in the first team.

I think that a good future policy can have some inmediate setbacks, though. It's very important for the last line of defence to play together in order they gel together, and certainly that hasn't happened, and we've paid dearly that. I didn't see an overall bad game against Everton, but some big mistakes in the back. Those mistakes were made by players I rate, such as Reina, Hyypia (awful game) and Carraguer (too many doubts). And since I don't think they've forgotten about playing football, I think it's a matter of matches we recover that solidness. Once a defence is solid, you can enter a substitution as a rotation in that line of 4 men (1 time in the back, another in the LB) and not losing that solidness. But we're not quite there yet, and an extremely effective Everton, a ref that left the area of Everton as a "all is allowed" zone, and a bit of bad luck by not scoring some good chances, struck us hard. I perfectly know what a derby means, and what it hurts to lose it, but I've seen too many negative comments.

So in a nutshell, I agree that it's a good policy, but we have to pay a price for it at this early stages.

Walk on.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:02 am

Rush wrote:I might be sticking me neck out with this one, but do Chelsea, Man U or Arsenal do much rotating? Living as I do in Germany, I only get to see the games that Premiere show (pay tv) Every time Chelsea or Man U are shown it always seems to be the same starting 11, unless injuries force a change. Am I mistaken or is it so.?

The Scum don't do much rotating, mainly because they have a strong first 11, then sh*te.

Sh*tski hardly ever have the same team play twice in a row. The past two seasons have seen massive alterations in the winger departments, with Cole, Robben, Duff, Geremi, Ferrera, etc all adopting the wide-roles.
Dirty cheating diving b*stard Drogba swapped with Crespo quite a bit, and Gallas would spend one week in, 3 weeks out as and when the whimsical Portugese toilet brush felt like it.

LFC only rotate slightly more than the chavs when injuries and fatigue are removed from the equation.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:08 am

People make me laugh moaning about team selection. We play pre-season friendlies and everyone is drooling about our new signings even though we play poorly.

The season starts and against Chelsea its "Rafa's a genius for his team selection, even Zenden surprised me with how well he played ".

We play poorly next match and then its "we should stick to the team that did so well for us last season and introduce the new players slowly over the season ,and why in God's name did we play Zenden".

Then next its " where was Pennant, Bellamy and Gonzales, we had no pace".
The sad thing is its the same people making these statements.

Now we have the new war cry of " Rafa should play his strongest team every match". What is our strongest team? If you ask 10 people on here you will get 15 different teams (and thats just from MilitiaRusher

).

I am sure an established strongest team will eventually emerge (we all know the core already) The problem is the core players have all either been playing badly, making uncharactoristic errors, injured or recovering from injury . Even Gerrard hasnt hit any heights yet. Add to that we have had little luck ,our confidence has taken a knock and all our games have been played in a cup-final manner by the opposition.

Its not a rotation/selection problem its a playing below par problem!

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:49 am

The big problem was the side picked for the Sheffield United game, as Bad Bob has already gone through the players selected i wont do that.
The players highlighted were the major mistakes, Zenden and Fowler shouldnt have played.
I dont want to criticise players unecessarily but as a centre midfielder Zenden offers nothing. He is not a ball winner, wont win enough headers, does not have the ability to play killer passes or dictate the pace of games, and wont score many goals. So Gerrard should of played in the centre with Pennant on the right.
Fowler, now any time Fowler is selected i am made up, i think he is a fantastic player and our best finisher, having said that Robbie had been injured for a couple of weeks and would of been better being used as a substitute.
Hindsight is a great thing, and as has been said the players have to take part of the blame, but big mick is spot on....and i was saying it pre-season. We didnt have many pre-season games and we played bizarre teams, now people say its all about fitness results dont matter blah blah....but those games should of been used establishing the best eleven to start the Maccabi Haifa and Sheffield united games. He never bothered doing that and we have had a poor start to the season again. We are always playing catch up...and it didnt need to be like that.
The Everton game i actually thought we played OK, apart from a couple of howlers from Carragher and Reina, and but for missed chances we would of got something out of it. It was one of them games were everything went right for them and wrong for us. I am not worried and back the lads to get a win in Eindhoven and a draw at Chelsea.
Lets just hope lessons have been learned and that we do keep a settled side from now on, because we cant afford any passengers and the likes of Zenden is most definately that.
Btw on a side note...someone needs to have a word in Aurellio's ear and tell him to stick to shooting from set pieces, the amount of ridiculous shots at goal he had in the derby was winding me up...its not like they were getting closer either.
All in all a bad day at the office and its not nice being emailed in work now by all the bitters, but we will come back stronger...and i go to Turkey tonight, so its not all bad

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