Liverpool FC Forum

by **taff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:24 pm

Lets look at some other facts

After winning the gold medal in the olympics he was refuesd entrance to a restaurant in his home town due to his colour

The segregation at the time gave rise to extremist groups such as the nation of islam

Under pressure from this group he still refused to cut ties with his coaching team and eventually cut ties with the nation of islam.

He refused to be an unle tom and refused to join an army he thought was carrying out an unjust war even at the cost of hi career.

He was symptematic of his time and of course he had faults but he recognised them himself. As for Joe Louis friend of the white man post some facts about where he ended up and how his life ended, hardly the dignified end you imply.

Ali was more than a fighter he was an iconic symbol. Che Guevara had loads of faults but he too was an icon and how dare people like this stand up to an unjust society that abused their people both black and Latin.

If your talking most succesful heavyweight then Marciano, as for the greatest ever boxer probably sugar ray robinson.

by **Big Niall** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:48 pm

I agree about Sugar Ray Robinson but Marciano? who did he beat (besides an over the hill Joe Louis).

I agree with judging a man by the times he lived in but other people in America were in inter racial relationships , people like Martin Luther King realised the way forward was reconciliation.

How could he believe in the nation of Islam and have white management? How could he preach virtues but be having one night stands all over the place. George Foreman said in his autobiography that Ali would call him a christian fa**ot which shows not only bigotry but that Ali didn't understand his religion.

He went to Africa to fight Foreman and talked about black justice and how great it was to be among the poor in Africa but hundreds of poor, beggers etc were locked up in terrible conditions under the stadium.

The boxer he called "uncle Tom" was Frazier, you know the poor black boxer (Ali was middle class) with black management.

Jack Johnson was the first black fighter to be champion and he was so hated by white america for being an "uppity Nig*er" (terrible words of the time) that no other black boxers got big fights for many years. Joe Louis had to act the way he did to nudge the door open so the next generation could be brasher. It is a pity how he ended up but being poor and an alleged drug user doesn't take from his contribution.

The boxer I admire the most? Max Schmelling. A man who looked Hitler in the eye and said that he wouldn't sack his Jewish trainer as he was hard working and very loyal and said that "surely these are German characteristics" . No other heavyweight champ has shown that much bravery.

by **CardinalRed** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:50 pm

Best Heavyweight ever, I know it's an empty argument 'cause he never went pro but Teofilio Stephenson was top draw.... 3 Olympic golds on the trot, he could have made a fortune and what a fight with Ali that would have been......?

:cool:

by **taff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:13 pm

Big Niall wrote:I agree about Sugar Ray Robinson but Marciano? who did he beat (besides an over the hill Joe Louis).

I agree with judging a man by the times he lived in but other people in America were in inter racial relationships , people like Martin Luther King realised the way forward was reconciliation.

How could he believe in the nation of Islam and have white management? How could he preach virtues but be having one night stands all over the place. George Foreman said in his autobiography that Ali would call him a christian fa**ot which shows not only bigotry but that Ali didn't understand his religion.

He went to Africa to fight Foreman and talked about black justice and how great it was to be among the poor in Africa but hundreds of poor, beggers etc were locked up in terrible conditions under the stadium.

The boxer he called "uncle Tom" was Frazier, you know the poor black boxer (Ali was middle class) with black management.

Jack Johnson was the first black fighter to be champion and he was so hated by white america for being an "uppity Nig*er" (terrible words of the time) that no other black boxers got big fights for many years. Joe Louis had to act the way he did to nudge the door open so the next generation could be brasher. It is a pity how he ended up but being poor and an alleged drug user doesn't take from his contribution.

The boxer I admire the most? Max Schmelling. A man who looked Hitler in the eye and said that he wouldn't sack his Jewish trainer as he was hard working and very loyal and said that "surely these are German characteristics" . No other heavyweight champ has shown that much bravery.

Marciano was undefeated and still holds the record for unbeaten fights. You could say weak opponents but all champions have had these.

Malcolm X and to an extent Ali realised the reconciliation way but one was killed and Ali well he just fizzled out and stopped being involved with them.

The Nation preached a lot of things you credit Ali with, he was controversial but it was always perceived as tongue in cheek because of the person he was.

Zaire started off as an ideal but became a mistake.

Frazier and Ali had a love hate relationship and Ali just couldnt keep his mouth shut

I wouldnt read too much into that as it was his way of Pshycing himself and the opponent.

Scmelling yes he was brave and theres a tribute to him on the Ali website

For me Calzaghe and Khan could go down in history as greats although Calzaghe has a weak hand and he hasnt unleashed properly for a few fights.

by **Big Niall** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:52 pm

For me Calzaghe will go down as a "would he have beat....." fighter. His fight against that top yank (can't think of his name) is his only great win to date.

If he had beaten Roy Jones, James Toney, Hopkins, Trinadad (who went upto middle) then he'd be a great.

I fear that Khan will stay as king of Britain - no disrespect to the British boxing scene but to be "world class" you have to go to USA and beat the top americans/mexicans etc. To be a legend you have to prove that you are the best in the world and stay there to dominate, not win a WBA here and a WBO there and fight in Britain.

The only "top man" in British boxing in my time was Lennox Lewis, like him or not he beat everybody (bar Bowe who wouldn't fight him)

I hope Khan gets the top fights in America against the best in the world - in a few years time of course, not now.

by **taff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:03 pm

Calzaghe I kinda agree, unlucky with injuries and some bad promotion.

I think Khan will do well and will take the USA but in a few years as you say. I did think he wuld have stayed an amateur mind you for the gold medal. I just hope he is not rushed into a money earner before he is a bit more ringwise

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:36 pm

Calzaghe has been very unfortunate with injuries and with the fact that Frank Warren is his promoter.
He is one of the most exciting fighters (on his night) of this era, but he has too often been put in with handpicked mediocre opposition. Frank Warren is too scared in his fighters losing because they are harder to promote then.
He should of been taken to America years ago and fought the likes of Hopkins and Jones, even Trinidad, who knows how he would of fared because he is a fighter that is better under pressure. He struggles against weaker opponents due to him losing interest.
Amir Kahn looks great so far, but we really will have to wait and see what he is like fighting 12 round fights, and fighting people who dont walk forward. But so far so good and he looks a fantastic prospect so far.

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