Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:56 pm

s@int wrote:Im very disapointed in you BadBob, you usually leave me something to have a little niggle at you. I couldnt find anything to argue with in your post. I agree with everything you said.

That's worrying!

Oh, I forgot to add that Rafa's other screw-up was bringing on Pennant instead of Crouch. Robbie had to come off but playing Bellamy up front alone in the last 10 minutes was a step backward--especially as he was well frustrated by that point and looked more likely to get carded than score.

by **alessandromagno** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:59 pm

I was disappointed that after the game Rafa just wanted to concentrate on the "lucky" penalty (OK, it was a penalty--but we all know it might not have been given on another occasion). Rafa is not really very enlightening when he talks about penalties: all those given against us are wrong and ours are always reasonable...OK, I can live with that--but I would have been happier to see him adress the issue of our performance and give his opinion about what went wrong!

by **metalhead** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:59 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I'm as disappointed with the result as anybody on here but, FFS, some people are way over the top with the negativity. Here's my view of the match...

Team Selection
Lots of people having a go at Rafa on this one but let's look at things. Finnan was injured so he had zero choice but to play Kromkamp (who was poor). Aurelio has been played at LM in preseason and showed promise so no big surprise he was selected. Plus, he would have come on for Riise anyway even if Gonzales had started, so you can't criticize Rafa playing him at LB. Alonso, I believe, needs rest and both he and Garcia had a midweek trip to Iceland to deal with, so I'm not surprised that they weren't even on the bench.

No, the only real selection question marks for me were starting Zenden at CM and Fowler at CF. In my opinion, Gerrard should have definitely started in the middle, with Pennant on the right for this game (since Pennant had no midweek duty). I can only imagine that Rafa was looking for Gerrard to replicate his midweek form on the right today. Up front, Fowler starting after an injury lay-off is a bit odd but there may have been a fatigue issue with Crouch from midweek that we don't know about. So, Rafa didn't get the team selection spot on but it wasn't the shambles that some on here suggest it was.

Performances
The rust always shows in the first game of the season for all teams, not just us. As Adam's pointed out, we've had opening day draws three years running now. Arsenal did not look sharp today and we all know how close Chelsea was to losing to Wigan last season. It's to be expected that we aren't quite in top gear.

Having said that, there were moments today when the rust really showed. Fowler, for one, had at least two chances to score in the first half--chances he usually buries. Bellamy was unfortunate to direct his header right at Kenny instead of into the bottom corner. And, Aurelio's free kick would have caused plenty of trouble had it been into the top left corner rather than the right down the middle. Plus, both Fowler and Gonzales slipped at key moments with the ball at their feet in the box. Had any one of those chances been put away, we would be celebrating a victory right now and there would be a lot less doom and gloom around here.

In the midfield I thought we had a slow start to the game. As time went on, though, Sissoko grew into the match and started winning balls all over the pitch. I thought Zenden had a fairly tidy game in the second half whilst doing nothing truly spectacular to drive us forward. That left Stevie to do the build-up work and he looked somewhat off his game in that respect today. Gonzales had some decent touches on the wing but didn't really stretch their defense, which was needed after they scored and parked 10 men behind the ball.

At the back, I liked how Agger carried the ball forward but his distribution was hit and miss. Sami's distribution was generally poor as well, with a few too many long balls up to our short-statured forwards. Kromkamp was generally poor (the foul that led to goal was schoolyard obstruction and was totally unnecessary) and Aurelio was patchy. It seemed as though everyone was nervous after conceding and we were trying to force the play a bit too much.

Ultimately, we had a team on the pitch that was capable of winning the game but a few too many players were not on song--hence the draw.

Injuries
IMO, the loss of both Riise and Carragher changed the game and it was always going to be a bit of a struggle after that. Aurelio hasn't had many opportunities at LB yet for us and he showed some rustiness out there--especially for the goal which was 100% on him. I don't think he had a terrible game defensively, however--he seemed to find his form in the second half at both ends of the pitch. I thought Agger deputized well for Carragher but Sami didn't seem as comfortable as he usually does after being sandwiched in between two newbies (Kromkamp and Agger). Nothing could have been done about that situation though--Rafa's hand was forced by the injuries.

Most significantly, the injuries really limited our substitution options late in the game. We would have likely seen both Crouch and Pennant come on in the closing stages to shake the game up had just one of those two injuries not happened.

Bottom line, we had a poor game by our high standards but we were by no means dreadful. We dominated the game after their goal and created the openings that would ordinarily see us through to victory. Whether we look back on this game in 9 months time as a key misstep remains to be seen. I, for one, will not hit the panic button just yet, though!

agreed with you about almost everything, i said before that the 2 early substitution changed our game and minimized Rafa's option to change his tactics. Kromkamp should not repeat such a preformance, he was poor and a very silly freekick to throw away.

Badbob, you have taken out the positives of the game which are very true.

by **woof woof !** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:00 pm

Bad Bob wrote:The rust always shows in the first game of the season for all teams, not just us.

Without dismissing the rest of your post Bob , can i just point out that pre-season friendlies aside , we have had two highly competitive games (Maccabi and Chelsea) and if anything we should be sharper and showing less "rust" than others .

Your arguement on this issue IMO doesn't hold water .

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:09 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:The rust always shows in the first game of the season for all teams, not just us.

Without dismissing the rest of your post Bob , can i just point out that pre-season friendlies aside , we have had two highly competitive games (Maccabi and Chelsea) and if anything we should be sharper and showing less "rust" than others .

Your arguement on this issue IMO doesn't hold water .

Sheff U have had 3 months to prepare for this match, while we have had our preparations disrupted by CL and a stupid England friendly. Our pre-season has been poor ,and because we had players coming back from the world cup also disjointed. The Chelsea game obviously flattered to deceive.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:18 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:The rust always shows in the first game of the season for all teams, not just us.

Without dismissing the rest of your post Bob , can i just point out that pre-season friendlies aside , we have had two highly competitive games (Maccabi and Chelsea) and if anything we should be sharper and showing less "rust" than others .

Your arguement on this issue IMO doesn't hold water .

I hear what you're saying Woof, but I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

1) A CL qualifier is a different beast than an opening day league match at Brammel Lane. The pace and physicality of the game are just different and so playing the former does not necessarily mean you are in top form for the latter. Look at last season: we had been going for nearly a month in the CL when we had the league opener at Boro and we still weren't sharp. It always takes us a little while to get going in the league--that doesn't mean I like it, just that I've come to expect it.

More importantly, however...

2) How many of the lads who played the majority of the game today featured heavily against Chelsea and Maccabi Haifa? Some of our rustiest performances today, weren't involved much or at all in those previous matches:

Fowler, who usually buries the types of chances he got today. He's just back from injury so I can understand why he's rusty.

Aurelio, who was very hit and miss today. He's also just back from injury and has not yet come to grips with the Prem.

Kromkamp, who was bloody poor today. No excuses for him...he just had a shocker.

Don't get me wrong, mate--I'm not trying to offer excuses or pretend all is rosy and that today's result wasn't a huge disappointment. I just think today's result needs to be put into a little bit of perspective. Having said that, I'm not keen to repeat last season's slow start so I hope some of the issues we've all been addressing get sorted sharpish.

by **aCe'** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:19 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I'm as disappointed with the result as anybody on here but, FFS, some people are way over the top with the negativity. Here's my view of the match...

Team Selection
Lots of people having a go at Rafa on this one but let's look at things. Finnan was injured so he had zero choice but to play Kromkamp (who was poor). Aurelio has been played at LM in preseason and showed promise so no big surprise he was selected. Plus, he would have come on for Riise anyway even if Gonzales had started, so you can't criticize Rafa playing him at LB. Alonso, I believe, needs rest and both he and Garcia had a midweek trip to Iceland to deal with, so I'm not surprised that they weren't even on the bench.

No, the only real selection question marks for me were starting Zenden at CM and Fowler at CF. In my opinion, Gerrard should have definitely started in the middle, with Pennant on the right for this game (since Pennant had no midweek duty). I can only imagine that Rafa was looking for Gerrard to replicate his midweek form on the right today. Up front, Fowler starting after an injury lay-off is a bit odd but there may have been a fatigue issue with Crouch from midweek that we don't know about. So, Rafa didn't get the team selection spot on but it wasn't the shambles that some on here suggest it was.

Performances
The rust always shows in the first game of the season for all teams, not just us. As Adam's pointed out, we've had opening day draws three years running now. Arsenal did not look sharp today and we all know how close Chelsea was to losing to Wigan last season. It's to be expected that we aren't quite in top gear.

Having said that, there were moments today when the rust really showed. Fowler, for one, had at least two chances to score in the first half--chances he usually buries. Bellamy was unfortunate to direct his header right at Kenny instead of into the bottom corner. And, Aurelio's free kick would have caused plenty of trouble had it been into the top left corner rather than the right down the middle. Plus, both Fowler and Gonzales slipped at key moments with the ball at their feet in the box. Had any one of those chances been put away, we would be celebrating a victory right now and there would be a lot less doom and gloom around here.

In the midfield I thought we had a slow start to the game. As time went on, though, Sissoko grew into the match and started winning balls all over the pitch. I thought Zenden had a fairly tidy game in the second half whilst doing nothing truly spectacular to drive us forward. That left Stevie to do the build-up work and he looked somewhat off his game in that respect today. Gonzales had some decent touches on the wing but didn't really stretch their defense, which was needed after they scored and parked 10 men behind the ball.

At the back, I liked how Agger carried the ball forward but his distribution was hit and miss. Sami's distribution was generally poor as well, with a few too many long balls up to our short-statured forwards. Kromkamp was generally poor (the foul that led to goal was schoolyard obstruction and was totally unnecessary) and Aurelio was patchy. It seemed as though everyone was nervous after conceding and we were trying to force the play a bit too much.

Ultimately, we had a team on the pitch that was capable of winning the game but a few too many players were not on song--hence the draw.

Injuries
IMO, the loss of both Riise and Carragher changed the game and it was always going to be a bit of a struggle after that. Aurelio hasn't had many opportunities at LB yet for us and he showed some rustiness out there--especially for the goal which was 100% on him. I don't think he had a terrible game defensively, however--he seemed to find his form in the second half at both ends of the pitch. I thought Agger deputized well for Carragher but Sami didn't seem as comfortable as he usually does after being sandwiched in between two newbies (Kromkamp and Agger). Nothing could have been done about that situation though--Rafa's hand was forced by the injuries.

Most significantly, the injuries really limited our substitution options late in the game. We would have likely seen both Crouch and Pennant come on in the closing stages to shake the game up had just one of those two injuries not happened.

Bottom line, we had a poor game by our high standards but we were by no means dreadful. We dominated the game after their goal and created the openings that would ordinarily see us through to victory. Whether we look back on this game in 9 months time as a key misstep remains to be seen. I, for one, will not hit the panic button just yet, though!

again BADBOB... i dont see why you defend Rafa when its so obvious his team selection and tactics were simply shiittyy !
heres how i see thins...
Finnan injured... Kromkamp comes in ! no probelm
Aurelio at LM.... no no no ! not whn you'r starting Riise too... not when you'r playing a 4-4-2 against the worst club in the league ! You start 2 out and out wingers who can go forward and put decent crosses in ! Aurelio is a left back that Rafa has been playing in LM just so he has coer for gonzales incase gonzales is injured until kewell is back to full training .
Should have started Gonzales at LM...

Alonso needed to be rested....is not in form... has fitness issues... no problem... the way i see it... an opportunity to play Gerrrard in his position at CM ! should have done that !
Garcia i think should have started ... midweek game or no, he's a prof. footballer who's still relatively young and im sure can play 2 or 3 games a week... no problem.... shloud have started if Crouch wasnt going to start...

fowler... no offense ... i thought was not good enough for liverpool today ! might be the long lay-off....not fully fit yet.... i dont know what it is,, but he was no good out there ! i dont see him starting many games this season and a go off the bench is the best he can aim for imo !

Too many iffs in your post for my liking there badbob ! tbh... you sounded like a fulham fan with all your... "if that header had gone to the top corner istead of the goalkeepers hand, we would have won the game"... you gotta face the facts buddy... we played a poor poor game out there against a poor poor opposition ! the only bad thing about Kromkamp was his going forward... it was dreadful ! Agger was good, Zenden was OK, Hyypia was Ok, Gerrard was good, Bellamy was Ok !
Their team didnt attack all the much throughout the game, but what was most frustrating is that we werent attacking all that much either !

One more thing.... please dont compare our draw to Arsenal's.... not fair to them ! did you watch arsenal's game ?! thats how football is played... nothing like what we saw of liverpool tonight ! WE WERE DREADFUL !

aaand.... no one hit the panic button or anything... but its a game we should have won.... forget won... we should have played good football... i didnt see any nice touches out there... except for that one-two Fowler/gerrard... even gerrard wasnt all that good out there.... cant see how anyone besides Rafa could take the blame for the draw....

by **woof woof !** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:19 pm

s@int wrote:Sheff U have had 3 months to prepare for this match, while we have had our preparations disrupted by CL and a stupid England friendly. Our pre-season has been poor ,and because we had players coming back from the world cup also disjointed.

Well thanks for explaining that .If only our squad had three months to prepare, didn't have so many international players in the team and didn't have their pre seasons preparations disrupted by a CL game and a game against Chelsea to contend with , we might have performed better against the mighty Sheffield Utd.

Why didn't I think of that :laugh:

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:30 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
s@int wrote:Sheff U have had 3 months to prepare for this match, while we have had our preparations disrupted by CL and a stupid England friendly. Our pre-season has been poor ,and because we had players coming back from the world cup also disjointed.

Well thanks for explaining that .If only our squad had three months to prepare, didn't have so many international players in the team and didn't have their pre seasons preparations disrupted by a CL game and a game against Chelsea to contend with , we might have performed better against the mighty Sheffield Utd.

Why didn't I think of that

I dont know mate. Took me a while to think it up

by **woof woof !** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:31 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:The rust always shows in the first game of the season for all teams, not just us.

Without dismissing the rest of your post Bob , can i just point out that pre-season friendlies aside , we have had two highly competitive games (Maccabi and Chelsea) and if anything we should be sharper and showing less "rust" than others .

Your arguement on this issue IMO doesn't hold water .

I hear what you're saying Woof, but I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

1) A CL qualifier is a different beast than an opening day league match at Brammel Lane. The pace and physicality of the game are just different and so playing the former does not necessarily mean you are in top form for the latter. Look at last season: we had been going for nearly a month in the CL when we had the league opener at Boro and we still weren't sharp. It always takes us a little while to get going in the league--that doesn't mean I like it, just that I've come to expect it.

More importantly, however...

2) How many of the lads who played the majority of the game today featured heavily against Chelsea and Maccabi Haifa? Some of our rustiest performances today, weren't involved much or at all in those previous matches:

Fowler, who usually buries the types of chances he got today. He's just back from injury so I can understand why he's rusty.

Aurelio, who was very hit and miss today. He's also just back from injury and has not yet come to grips with the Prem.

Kromkamp, who was bloody poor today. No excuses for him...he just had a shocker.

Don't get me wrong, mate--I'm not trying to offer excuses or pretend all is rosy and that today's result wasn't a huge disappointment. I just think today's result needs to be put into a little bit of perspective. Having said that, I'm not keen to repeat last season's slow start so I hope some of the issues we've all been addressing get sorted sharpish.

Fair comment Bob , but if I agree with your obsevations espescially re Fowler and Aurelio, I then have to ask, Why the f'uck were they selected in the starting 11 ? Maybe ,just maybe ,players just back from injury and still trying to shake off some rustiness shouldn't be in the starting line up for the first game of the season .

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:44 pm

aCe' wrote:again BADBOB... i dont see why you defend Rafa when its so obvious his team selection and tactics were simply shiittyy !
heres how i see thins...
Finnan injured... Kromkamp comes in ! no probelm
Aurelio at LM.... no no no ! not whn you'r starting Riise too... not when you'r playing a 4-4-2 against the worst club in the league ! You start 2 out and out wingers who can go forward and put decent crosses in ! Aurelio is a left back that Rafa has been playing in LM just so he has coer for gonzales incase gonzales is injured until kewell is back to full training .
Should have started Gonzales at LM...

Alonso needed to be rested....is not in form... has fitness issues... no problem... the way i see it... an opportunity to play Gerrrard in his position at CM ! should have done that !
Garcia i think should have started ... midweek game or no, he's a prof. footballer who's still relatively young and im sure can play 2 or 3 games a week... no problem.... shloud have started if Crouch wasnt going to start...

fowler... no offense ... i thought was not good enough for liverpool today ! might be the long lay-off....not fully fit yet.... i dont know what it is,, but he was no good out there ! i dont see him starting many games this season and a go off the bench is the best he can aim for imo !

Too many iffs in your post for my liking there badbob ! tbh... you sounded like a fulham fan with all your... "if that header had gone to the top corner istead of the goalkeepers hand, we would have won the game"... you gotta face the facts buddy... we played a poor poor game out there against a poor poor opposition ! the only bad thing about Kromkamp was his going forward... it was dreadful ! Agger was good, Zenden was OK, Hyypia was Ok, Gerrard was good, Bellamy was Ok !
Their team didnt attack all the much throughout the game, but what was most frustrating is that we werent attacking all that much either !

One more thing.... please dont compare our draw to Arsenal's.... not fair to them ! did you watch arsenal's game ?! thats how football is played... nothing like what we saw of liverpool tonight ! WE WERE DREADFUL !

aaand.... no one hit the panic button or anything... but its a game we should have won.... forget won... we should have played good football... i didnt see any nice touches out there... except for that one-two Fowler/gerrard... even gerrard wasnt all that good out there.... cant see how anyone besides Rafa could take the blame for the draw....

aCe', lad, we're basically saying the same thing: we played poorly, some of Rafa's selections were wrong and the injuries hurt us. I don't have any trouble accepting that reality.

I do disagree with some of your assessments though:

1) I love Garcia but I don't think this was his type of game. This was always going to be a slog of a game and those are the matches were Garcia struggles--it was right to leave him out for this one.

2) As for Robbie, I felt quite comfortable with a Fowler-Bellamy strike partnership and they created some good chances for each other. Had Fowler been in the form he showed at the end of last season, we would have won, simple as. As it turned out he didn't put his chances away but that's football. But, I think calling him not good enough is quite harsh, really.

3) We're agreed about Gerrard in the centre ahead of Zenden today. I think that was Rafa's biggest selection mistake, as Pennant could have really caused them problems out wide and given our attack balance.

4) I tend to agree with about Aurelio, too, but only because I know very little about the guy and have simply read that he prefers LB. I suspect, however, that Rafa is keen to test him out from time to time at LM, given that he has decent skills and a great cross. I would have started Gonzales ahead of him personally, but I thought he did alright in his brief cameo at LM. BUT, it's a moot point anyway since Riise got injured and he got moved early on. It's not as though selecting him at LM really turned the game, right?

As for the what ifs...I'm not trying to use those to suggest we played well--only to illustrate that we were rusty. For me, rustiness in the opening game of the season is inevitable. I don't like it. I sure as hell hope we shake it off before Tuesday. But I don't lose sleep over it. We'll improve and we will contend for the title this season. One draw to a "bottom feeder" will not change that.

by **aCe'** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:49 pm

im sure we'll win that title....i cant see chelsea stumbling anytime soon but i hope they do ! same goes for fergie and his herd!

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:56 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:The rust always shows in the first game of the season for all teams, not just us.

Without dismissing the rest of your post Bob , can i just point out that pre-season friendlies aside , we have had two highly competitive games (Maccabi and Chelsea) and if anything we should be sharper and showing less "rust" than others .

Your arguement on this issue IMO doesn't hold water .

I hear what you're saying Woof, but I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

1) A CL qualifier is a different beast than an opening day league match at Brammel Lane. The pace and physicality of the game are just different and so playing the former does not necessarily mean you are in top form for the latter. Look at last season: we had been going for nearly a month in the CL when we had the league opener at Boro and we still weren't sharp. It always takes us a little while to get going in the league--that doesn't mean I like it, just that I've come to expect it.

More importantly, however...

2) How many of the lads who played the majority of the game today featured heavily against Chelsea and Maccabi Haifa? Some of our rustiest performances today, weren't involved much or at all in those previous matches:

Fowler, who usually buries the types of chances he got today. He's just back from injury so I can understand why he's rusty.

Aurelio, who was very hit and miss today. He's also just back from injury and has not yet come to grips with the Prem.

Kromkamp, who was bloody poor today. No excuses for him...he just had a shocker.

Don't get me wrong, mate--I'm not trying to offer excuses or pretend all is rosy and that today's result wasn't a huge disappointment. I just think today's result needs to be put into a little bit of perspective. Having said that, I'm not keen to repeat last season's slow start so I hope some of the issues we've all been addressing get sorted sharpish.

Fair comment Bob , but if I agree with your obsevations espescially re Fowler and Aurelio, I then have to ask, Why the f'uck were they selected in the starting 11 ? Maybe ,just maybe ,players just back from injury and still trying to shake off some rustiness shouldn't be in the starting line up for the first game of the season .

Nail on head, Woof--nail on head!

It always seems to bite us in the as.s when Rafa has one eye on the CL and one eye on the Prem early in the season. :no

by **alessandromagno** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:56 pm

Those supporters who thought the new look Liverpool were sure to blast lowly Sheffield United out of the water were certainly badly disappointed!

by **crazyhorse** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:30 pm

I do not understand all the negative stuff here. A lot of sides will leave Brammal lane with bugger all this season - for the first game of a new season this was a definate banana skin and I am satisfied with a point.
The injuries are a shame, and team selection was questionable in some cases but this result is no reason to give up hope or start being negative.
For the first time in several years i have genuine optimism at the start of a season that we have a realistic chance of mounting a serious challenge to Chelski, Manure and Aresenal for the title.
I am willing to bet that Sheff Uts will surprise a good few many of the so called top sides over the course of this year.

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