Liverpool FC Forum

by **Espionage** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:42 pm

This thread has been a long time coming. I said at the end of last season that Rafa was going to have huge problems with selection for this coming season. IMHO we cannot drop any of them. That means 4-5-1 with possibly Bellamy playing wide right in the role that we saw Cisse playing in last season. That way Gerrard can go into that right midfield position without too much difficulty (so effectively changing from the 4-5-1 to a 4-4-2 relatively seemlessly).
I like Pennant but no way am i going to drop Alonso, or settle for not having Bellamy in the team. I have always thought that Rafa was going to play Gerrard on the right again this season and let Alonso and Sissoko have the CM. Pennant is back-up and/or a pure right winger for when we need it.
I cant wait to see how this turns out...............

by **stmichael** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:10 pm

Espionage wrote:This thread has been a long time coming. I said at the end of last season that Rafa was going to have huge problems with selection for this coming season. IMHO we cannot drop any of them. That means 4-5-1 with possibly Bellamy playing wide right in the role that we saw Cisse playing in last season. That way Gerrard can go into that right midfield position without too much difficulty (so effectively changing from the 4-5-1 to a 4-4-2 relatively seemlessly).
I like Pennant but no way am i going to drop Alonso, or settle for not having Bellamy in the team. I have always thought that Rafa was going to play Gerrard on the right again this season and let Alonso and Sissoko have the CM. Pennant is back-up and/or a pure right winger for when we need it.
I cant wait to see how this turns out...............

this is why i've always thought that 3-5-2 may be used more often than most think this season. not on a regular basis, but occasionally depending on the opposition. i can't see it becoming a regular thing because if you play three at the back your centre halves need to have pace and ours don't really have that.

good to have the flexibility and the option though.

by **ConnO'var** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:20 pm

Hmmmm... Interesting argument Ivor.....

Can see where you're coming from but am not in 100% agreement.

If you meant purely on form, I'd say you're right but this is still early in the season and Xabi has been injured. He's gonna need time and games to get back into gear and i'm sure you'd agree that he's DEFFINITELY worth the wait.... coz when he's back in sixth and on song, he's a joy to watch and an integral cog in the Liverpool engine room. What better way to get the real him back than to play him against the so called lesser light early in the season....

Mind you.... Sheffield United can be an almighty pain the bUtt if we're not careful...

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:58 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:First of all I'll qualify this by saying I rate Alonso as one of the best central midfielders in the world. On his day, he's unplayable, and I don't think for one second that he's a man in trouble.

That said, for the first match of the new Prem season, I think Rafa must drop Xabi Alonso to the bench.

In a way, Sissoko's storming form makes the decision to do this all the easier. As things stand, we've got 3 awesome central midfielders, but unless we go to 4-5-1, only two starting places. We look far better with two up front for me, and of the 3 central midfielders, on form you have to say that Momo should be the first on the teamsheet. Gerrard was poor against Haifa, but looked far better today.

Alonso, on the other hand, looks like he hasn't had a day off since Spain went out of the World Cup. He was poor last week, and frankly looked lost when he came on today. His normally exemplary passing is currently all over the place, and he frankly looks well short of fitness. A few times today he went for a ball that had moved on half a second earlier, and to me that's a clear sign that he's lacking simple conditioning.

So, for now, let's stop messing Gerrard around, and have him starting in the middle alongside Momo. Pennant and Gonzo (or Aurelio, who impressed me today) on the wings, and Alonso can start the season on the bench.

This for me is completely a question of form, and I don't doubt for a second that - come the end of the season - Xabi will have been one of our outstanding performers. A lot of our squad right now look incredibly sharp, right in time for the season's start, and I think that giving Alonso another week or two to get himself conditioned a little better would do the team no harm at all.

This thread makes me laugh. Not because the idea of dropping Alonso is ridiculous--indeed, I think you are spot on, Ivor--but because people seem really nervous about the idea.

A few points to make...

1) Note that Ivor is suggesting that Alonso be dropped for our first league game on Saturday. It's not like he's saying drop Alonso for a month or anything like that. One game on the bench while he's getting fit makes sense. Especially on the back of (pointless) international friendlies for most of our starting players. (In that regard, I agree with Big Mick that we may well see Gerrard rested too, with Zenden in the middle. In fact, the Charity Shield starting line-up may look very similar to Saturday's teamsheet due to these friendlies.)

2) Alonso has the mental toughness to accept being dropped to the bench when he lacks fitness or when he's slightly off form. It'll just make him more hungry to improve his game and win his spot back. He's not about to feck off to Madrid so there's no point worrying about it.

3) The last point leads me to a larger point. Some people seem unduly concerned that our more talented squad will cause some disharmony in the team this term, as quality players are dropped to the bench. First of all, my hope is that all of our players are professional enough to understand that you need to earn your place in Liverpool's starting 11 and that being dropped to the bench can be expected from time to time if you are not fit or if your form has dipped. Secondly, though, people seem to forget how utterly hell-bent Rafa is on squad rotation over the course of season. Dropping the likes of Alonso to the bench for one game does not mean he'll not play for months. In fact, I expect he'll start against Maccabi Haifa. As St. Mike said in the new players thread, it'll be horses for courses this season: all of our top players will get a fair crack of the whip over the next 9 months, but the flip side of that is that they will also all spend a bit more time than than they might prefer on the bench.

by **desperado0831** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:18 pm

Shallow!

Recap last season, Sissoko was too young in terms of experience and age to compete with anybody else and Alonso was performed every single matches then everybody is going to 'flatter' the fact.

I am crazily happy when i saw the 'new' sissoko in previous pre-season matches included last night shield capture. My younger brother reminds me one thing that i had never go through.

des : Look! Sissoko is far better than anyone else on the pitch. Alonso don't even worth a glance.

Allan : because sissoko can never join world cup tournament and all that he can do is training, training and training with benitez. He is still the same cos others looked tired on the face.

Oh~ I see.

by **JC_81** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:46 pm

Fair enough topic.

I agree Alonso has not hit top gear yet, I thought his performance against Haifa was one of his worst in a Liverpool shirt. Didn't find his passing range, looked sluggish and a yard off the pace. But to me he screams of a player needing games at the moment, not to be dropped to the bench. I'd still play Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard in the 2nd leg v Haifa, with Gerrard on the right. In fact, both the games against Sheffield United and Haifa are ones we should win and I'd be letting Alonso play 90 minutes in both of them to help him reach peak condition.

I've said it before, when the chips are down, we can't afford to leave ANY of these 3 midfielders out of the side. Start with these 3 and one out and out winger - either Pennant or Gonzalez - in a midfield 4. Play Momo and Alonso centrally and have Stevie, who's the most versatile, roaming from wing to wing throughout the game interchanging with either Pennant or Gonzalez and it will be our best formation imo.

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:03 pm

john craig wrote:Fair enough topic.

I agree Alonso has not hit top gear yet, I thought his performance against Haifa was one of his worst in a Liverpool shirt. Didn't find his passing range, looked sluggish and a yard off the pace. But to me he screams of a player needing games at the moment, not to be dropped to the bench. I'd still play Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard in the 2nd leg v Haifa, with Gerrard on the right. In fact, both the games against Sheffield United and Haifa are ones we should win and I'd be letting Alonso play 90 minutes in both of them to help him reach peak condition.

I've said it before, when the chips are down, we can't afford to leave ANY of these 3 midfielders out of the side. Start with these 3 and one out and out winger - either Pennant or Gonzalez - in a midfield 4. Play Momo and Alonso centrally and have Stevie, who's the most versatile, roaming from wing to wing throughout the game interchanging with either Pennant or Gonzalez and it will be our best formation imo.

I definately agree with that midfield because we have to play two in attack.
I am not at all keen on one up top because none of our strikers are at there best without a partner.
I would play Crouch and Bellamy and think that there is plenty of goals in this line up......

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise

Gerrard Alonso Sissoko Pennant

Bellamy Crouch

by **LFCFan4Life** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:38 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
john craig wrote:Fair enough topic.

I agree Alonso has not hit top gear yet, I thought his performance against Haifa was one of his worst in a Liverpool shirt. Didn't find his passing range, looked sluggish and a yard off the pace. But to me he screams of a player needing games at the moment, not to be dropped to the bench. I'd still play Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard in the 2nd leg v Haifa, with Gerrard on the right. In fact, both the games against Sheffield United and Haifa are ones we should win and I'd be letting Alonso play 90 minutes in both of them to help him reach peak condition.

I've said it before, when the chips are down, we can't afford to leave ANY of these 3 midfielders out of the side. Start with these 3 and one out and out winger - either Pennant or Gonzalez - in a midfield 4. Play Momo and Alonso centrally and have Stevie, who's the most versatile, roaming from wing to wing throughout the game interchanging with either Pennant or Gonzalez and it will be our best formation imo.

I definately agree with that midfield because we have to play two in attack.
I am not at all keen on one up top because none of our strikers are at there best without a partner.
I would play Crouch and Bellamy and think that there is plenty of goals in this line up......

Reina

Finnan Carragher Hyypia Riise

Gerrard Alonso Sissoko Pennant

Bellamy Crouch

Swap Gerrard and Pennant and it's the ideal starting XI.

by **Kash_Mountain** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:46 pm

Alonso does look out of sorts at the moment, maybe just a little jaded due to WC duties. Probably just needs a few weeks where he comes on from the bench. He'll get his fitness to top level in no time.

By the way, good post Ivor

by **Sabre** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:52 pm

The point you are making can be discussed, and the post is Ok, the name of the thread though doesn't seem to be the best one.

Alonso had 30 minutes in the game against Chelsea. He lost a couple of rangy balls that he uses to make well, but also provoked the yellow card of Diarra, put well a set pieces situation that almost was goal. And for what is worth, in the last 30 mins that Gerrard and Alonso played Chelsea simply ceased to reach the Liverpool area. Alonso was simply average for his standards. He uses to be brilliant but this time was simply average.

Does that mean that Sissoko will be the first option if we have to play an important match? I don't think so. Sissoko will never be able to give the team the tempo Alonso gives. He got the MoM of the CHelsea game but I sincerely think that he's more useful when you have a midfielder behind him. He runs a lot, he steals an important amount of balls, but he'll never have the positioning Alonso has.

Rafa seems to continue making rotations. He won a Chelsea game without Gerrard and Alonso on the field, and definitely has won the mental battle to Mourinho. Our players will be "drop" in this context, but if we have to play another CL final, Alonso will be there. For the first game? I think Gerrard and Alonso will be there.

by **Espionage** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:57 am

stmichael wrote:
Espionage wrote:This thread has been a long time coming. I said at the end of last season that Rafa was going to have huge problems with selection for this coming season. IMHO we cannot drop any of them. That means 4-5-1 with possibly Bellamy playing wide right in the role that we saw Cisse playing in last season. That way Gerrard can go into that right midfield position without too much difficulty (so effectively changing from the 4-5-1 to a 4-4-2 relatively seemlessly).
I like Pennant but no way am i going to drop Alonso, or settle for not having Bellamy in the team. I have always thought that Rafa was going to play Gerrard on the right again this season and let Alonso and Sissoko have the CM. Pennant is back-up and/or a pure right winger for when we need it.
I cant wait to see how this turns out...............

this is why i've always thought that 3-5-2 may be used more often than most think this season. not on a regular basis, but occasionally depending on the opposition. i can't see it becoming a regular thing because if you play three at the back your centre halves need to have pace and ours don't really have that.

good to have the flexibility and the option though.

I thought that for a long time, this would be our best line up for 3-5-2:

Reina
Carragher Hypia Agger

Finnan Alonso Riise
Sissoko Gerrard

Crouch
Bellamy

But with that I dont see Pennant playing, and i dont see Kewell, Gonzalez and Aurellio fighting for the same spot. Playing 3-5-2 creates more problems then it fixes IMO.
lol..... Maybe we might have ben better to off-load Gerrard, how ironic is that? Think about what we could do if Gerrard wasnt in there mucking up the balance. 30m+ could have gone a long way in............. No :no

This is doing my head in, I hope that Rafa sorts it out, the only logical solution is 4-4-2 with Gerrard on the right. But that way there is little chance of Pennant getting any time except as a sub. ooooh well that is the problem with having about 14 players that you consider "undropable". It gives a few headaches......

by **Alanay** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:19 am

Alonso is good. But the problem is we have too many good players. The only way to drop one of them is the fitness level, so that the guy is ready for the next game.

by **aCe'** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:51 am

same with chelsea !
They have Makelele, Essien, Diarra, Lampard, and Ballack fighting for two or 3 spots in midfield !
It's always good to have extra cover incase ur first option is not available but having too many players who can play the same position might just be a recipe for disaster !
Hope -more like i know- this wont happen with us !
hope it does to chelsea though ! fckers !

by **dward** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:47 am

I think what we should do is play certain players in certain matches.

For example, when we play against the weaker sides in the premiership, we might not need Momo as much because he won't have much play to break up so it would be better to have Alonso there. But he is playing so well you would never want to leave him out.

There are so many possibilities, I'm glad I'm not the one that's choosing.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:46 am

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