Liverpool FC Forum

by **48-1119859832** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:08 am

Bad Bob wrote:
0asis wrote:Lampard does nothing, he's brings nothing to the table. He scored twenty odd goals for Chelsea in recent seasons, so what? I or you could do that with Makelele and Essien doing all the donkey work for us.

I hope you're having a laugh because if you wrote this drivel in all seriousness, you are delusional!

Intelligent criticism is one thing but this over the top hyperbole that utterly diminishes any remotely sensical points you might care to make regarding Lampard and the English team. Get a clue, lad!

Oasis wrote:Ferdinand has dropped in standard over the last three years, he was one player who I thought had a superb World Cup 2002, but where is that form? It's lost, it's not there and I don't think it will be there in this World Cup.

On Ferdinand, the lad did not put a foot wrong today and so I'm curious just what you expect out of him?

Oasis wrote:And then make excuses like "it's too hot" well do you hear the Africans moan when they have to play in the cold, harsh British winters?

As for the heat, don't kid yourself...it's a factor (just ask the Ukraine). You may not like it as an excuse and it doesn't account for all of England's problems but Carra, for one, was utterly spent before the hour mark today and he's got the stamina of a thoroughbred. Consider that before you suit up to do Lampard's 'simple' job for him!

You see something in Frank Lampard no one else see's. How can you sit there and say Lampard's a good footballer who deserves a place in the England squad. You bring his club into it as usual. Jurgen Macho played for Chelsea, did that make him World Class? Pegguy Arphexad played for Liverpool and won six medals does that make him worthy of being selected for the French squad. Djemba-Djemba played for Man Utd, make him World Class does it? The fact of the matter is before Roman & merry millions came along, Lampard was a nothing player, he wasn't in the England squad, the papers didn't mention his name and even Chelsea supporters thought he was :censored:

and as for West Ham fans they were glad to have gotten shot of him.

So in comes Roman, they splash out on Makelele, who is basically there to do all the donkey work for Lampard, so Frank can bomb up field and take a good 20 shots on goal and like with Cisse one's bound to sail in. Then when you buy Essien on top that gives Lampard even more stability at the back to roam forward and have lots of shots. He wouldn't be at Chelsea if it wasn't for him being English, he was seen by Ranieri and Mourinho just like John Terry the core of the Chelsea team, the heart of the Chelsea team.

Lampard would be a nothing player had Chelsea not bought Makelele, it's a simple fact. Lampard made it into the England team on a regular basis in 2003, what happened that year? Oh yeah Roman came in and Ranieri bought Makelele.

If Lampard is as great as you say he is, then why doesn't he swap positions with Gerrard? Let Lampard defend and Gerrard roam uptop? After all Frank Lampard is such a great player, ain't that right, Bob?

Ferdinand was outjumped which had it not been for Terry's clearance England would of been 1-0 down on the stroke of half time. He also try's too many long balls aswell, is it down to Sven tactics? Probably but since when has Rio ever gone by the rule book? After all he was suspended for 8 months a few years ago. You'd think he would have enough intelligence to do short and simple passing, then again he did miss an important drugs test, so no wonder he continued to pump balls upfield.

Heats a factor yes, I'm not saying it isn't, but if you're training in this heat, you should adjust yourself to the climate. All countries with a cooler climate get on with the job in hand, they don't moan and whinge about it to the national press, that's the difference. Ukraine may of found the weather extremely hot, but I doubt for a moment they made a thousand and one excuses to their national press for getting hammered by Spain. Every country has advantages and disadvantages going into any competition, albeit climate, pitch surface, Injuries, lack of experience but they just get on with it and when they are beaten they hold their hands up and say "we were beaten by the better side". Do England? No we moan about everything but the kitchen sink, I'm surprised an England player hasn't blamed one of their exits on their dog yet, that's how lame the excuses are.

And I'll tell you something, I could a lot better than Frank Lampard even if I swapped kicking a ball around for beer. And Bob, no need for the insults lad, I thought you being an educated man would respect ppl's views, rather than calling them clueless, even if you don't agree with them. Coz you've made yourself look like an immature person. :laugh:

by **2520years** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:13 am

England always rely on Liverpool players in Germany (remember 5-1?)
:;):

Gerrard didn't play very well, but he was still a lot better than Frank on the day. I don't think they should be playing together because Frank always makes all the forward runs leaving Stevie to hold the fort. Stevie seems to have more sense of responsibility (probably from being club captain) than Frank does, who seems to be after the glory. I said it before the tournament, and I'll repeat it here, this would be a more effective midfield...

Gerrard
Cole Beckham
Carragher/Ferdinand*

* with the other in central defence alongside Terry

Sven won't go for that because he won't drop Frank.

IMHO the only starting player who did well was Terry.

by **kingycrouch** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:14 am

but u get a different option with crouch

by **hawkmoon269** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:28 am

kingycrouch wrote:but u get a different option with crouch

I supprises me that a player of Crouchie's height has to use his arms so much when he jumps - he conceeds so many fouls - not to mention pulling defender's hair

by **kingycrouch** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:30 am

dats were a great goal though

by **hawkmoon269** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:34 am

kingycrouch wrote: dats were a great goal though

Yeah - but he may be punished by FIFA

by **thegreedo** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:37 am

I'm getting sick to death with watching England games with Stevie frustrated and straining at the leash, trapped in the holding position because Frank (hollywood) Lampard feels he is too special to lower himself to take on his share of defensive midfield duties.

Don't get me wrong I am not for one moment suggesting Lampard is not a quality player, far from it, I merely don't feel he can come to grips with the concept of dropping in the whole behind Stevie in order to allow the more influencial of the two to get forward. Stevie spending so much of games sitting deep is comparable to buying a thoroughbred racehorse and leaving it in the stable. While I don't think he'll ever do it (he hasn't got the b@lls!) Lampard must be sacrificed by Sven for a holding midfielder in order to get the most out of the best midfield general in world football.

by **barnesrush** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:07 pm

anyone else thought that one obvious way to alow gerrard to play a more attacking role, while not messing around with the formation, would be simply to swap him and beckham. as happened with us this year it would give the side greater balance as becks is always drifting inside too much anyway. he plays there for real, and having stevie out wide would really stretch opponents allowing more space through the middle for rooney to run at defenders

by **kingycrouch** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:18 pm

the formation should be like dis:
Robinson
Carragher Ferdinad Terry cole
Carrick
Beckham J cole
GERRARD
Crouch Rooney

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:17 pm

Right, delusional it is then...

You see something in Frank Lampard no one else see's. How can you sit there and say Lampard's a good footballer who deserves a place in the England squad. You bring his club into it as usual. Jurgen Macho played for Chelsea, did that make him World Class? Pegguy Arphexad played for Liverpool and won six medals does that make him worthy of being selected for the French squad. Djemba-Djemba played for Man Utd, make him World Class does it?

Frank Lampard STARTS EVERY SINGLE GAME for the two-time English champions and was runner-up for World Footballer of the Year last year. We are not talking about some reserve team waster or washed up has-been here. You can't compare him to fecking Macho, Arphexad or Djemba-Djemba and you know it.

The fact of the matter is before Roman & merry millions came along, Lampard was a nothing player, he wasn't in the England squad, the papers didn't mention his name and even Chelsea supporters thought he was and as for West Ham fans they were glad to have gotten shot of him.

So in comes Roman, they splash out on Makelele, who is basically there to do all the donkey work for Lampard, so Frank can bomb up field and take a good 20 shots on goal and like with Cisse one's bound to sail in. Then when you buy Essien on top that gives Lampard even more stability at the back to roam forward and have lots of shots. He wouldn't be at Chelsea if it wasn't for him being English, he was seen by Ranieri and Mourinho just like John Terry the core of the Chelsea team, the heart of the Chelsea team.

Lampard would be a nothing player had Chelsea not bought Makelele, it's a simple fact. Lampard made it into the England team on a regular basis in 2003, what happened that year? Oh yeah Roman came in and Ranieri bought Makelele.

Lampard was no mug prior to Roman's arrival: he was a talented midfielder who was coming of age. Ranieri thought highly enough of him to have him start every game and Mourinho has continued that trend. If he was as sh!te as you suggest, don't you think he'd have been replaced by now--especially since Chelsea have the deep pockets to buy whoever they like? And, don't give me the "it's because he's English" rubbish--Wenger has demonstrated that top managers won't field English players just because...they have to be worthy of their place.

As for the Makelele/Essien argument, I agree to a point: they have made Lampard better buy allowing him to focus on getting forward. However, we can make a similar argument about Alonso/Sissoko freeing up Gerrard. It's no coincidence that Stevie scored 20 goals for us this season, with those two chipping in the middle of the park.

Again, to clarify, Gerrard is TWICE the player Lampard is but that doesn't make Lampard sh!te.

f Lampard is as great as you say he is, then why doesn't he swap positions with Gerrard? Let Lampard defend and Gerrard roam uptop? After all Frank Lampard is such a great player, ain't that right, Bob?

Never said he was great...only said he was worthy of a place in this England squad. Lampard can't do the holding role--as many have noted (a point I've never disputed)--on his day he can get you goals and that's obviously what Sven's banking on. Since he seems to be out of form at the moment, though, I'd consider dropping him for Carrick to let Gerrard roam.

Let me be clear about this: I am no fan of Lampard's. I think he's vastly overrated and lacks the all-round game that would make him a truly "world class" player. But, to sit there and suggest that he doesn't even deserve a place in the England squad is ridiculous. I've got no beef with people who criticize his performance over the last two games: he's been woeful, end of. But it simply goes too far to say he shouldn't be in the squad (who should be in Germany in his place then?). And, to suggest that you are I could do his job better than him is so laughable that I assumed you were joking until you repeated yourself. Your head needs checking, son.

As for the insults...you'll get over them and I've seen you take the p!ss with plenty of others on here so...pot, kettle, black...you get the picture. :no

I'll discuss Ferdinand another time...

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:05 pm

Bad Bob I think the problem with Fat Frank is not that hes not good enough for England (he obviously is) but that he seems to play for England, who play without a genuine holding midfield player ,as he would do for his club, who have one of the best holding midfielders in the world.This then imposes restrictions on Gerrard (who is NOT a holding midfielder) and as a result the whole team suffers. Fat Frank seems to have realised that you can play :censored:

but as long as you score all will be forgiven and you are hailed by the press as a star. His problem is he ain't scoring at the moment. Lampard and Gerrard cant play well together, they can both win you games but against good passing sides who keep possession they will be run off their feet (or Gerrard will be, Fat Frank doesnt track back very often)An astute tactical manager could probably find a solution and play both to their strengths Sven wont!

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:26 pm

s@int wrote:Bad Bob I think the problem with Fat Frank is not that hes not good enough for England (he obviously is) but that he seems to play for England, who play without a genuine holding midfield player ,as he would do for his club, who have one of the best holding midfielders in the world.This then imposes restrictions on Gerrard (who is NOT a holding midfielder) and as a result the whole team suffers. Fat Frank seems to have realised that you can play but as long as you score all will be forgiven and you are hailed by the press as a star. His problem is he ain't scoring at the moment. Lampard and Gerrard cant play well together, they can both win you games but against good passing sides who keep possession they will be run off their feet (or Gerrard will be, Fat Frank doesnt track back very often)

No question, Saint. With FF not scoring, he either needs to be benched or Sven needs to bring in a holding midfielder so Gerrard can push forward and threaten. Neither are likely to happen though.

I suggested in another thread that Beckham be moved into the middle and Gerrard push out on the right while keeping the same 4 midfielders. I suggest this because:

1) We are talking about Sven here: neither Beckham nor Lampard will be dropped any time soon (clearly he has no confidence in Carrick anyway) so I'm trying to be realistic

2) As we are talking about Sven, he won't change tactics any time soon either: 4-4-2 is Plan A--especially with Crouch contributing and Rooney returning to fitness--so he's not likely to play 5 in midfield with a holding player coming in, no matter what he tried in the warm-up friendlies

3) Beckham can no longer beat a man on the right (if he ever could) but he still delivers a nice free kick or cross; as such, playing him centrally offsets his lack of impact on the right and still allows him to do what he does best

4) Gerrard had a huge season for us on the right and he will cause defenses a lot of trouble from that position; of course, he'll tuck infield a lot from there (as J. Cole does on the left) so the fullback will have to help provide the width (Carra was game for it yesterday and Neville's always up for that)

Given Sven's conservatism, then, I think it is the switch that might help the midfield work a bit more effectively. But, if you're saying that Lampard's been disappointing, you'll get no argument from me--I'd still rather have him on the field than either Jenas or Hargreaves, though.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:46 pm

The main problems I see with swopping Beckham and Gerrard is we would lose width and defensively Beckham is weak and slow and we would still have the problem of playing the long ball too much.(Beckhams just as bad) I am sure Carrick would be in the team now if Sven rated him but as you say Lampard is not going to be dropped. I suggested yesterday playing Beckham as a wingback maybe we could compromise and play Gerrard on the wing, Beckham at wingback and bring Carrick/Carragher in as a third defender/holding player?

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:46 pm

0asis wrote:Ferdinand was outjumped which had it not been for Terry's clearance England would of been 1-0 down on the stroke of half time.

I just had another look at this one. I disagree that he was outjumped...he was fecking bowled over by Stern John who drove over the back of him to get at the ball that Robinson mis-punched (so your earlier critique of Robinson was more accurate than your rants about Lampard or Ferdinand, although at least he didn't get lobbed!

). Ferdinand didn't have much chance on that one, TBH. Interesting that the press is bleating on about Crouch's foul when this was much worse and not whistled dead. Thankfully Terry was there to mop up.

He also try's too many long balls aswell, is it down to Sven tactics? Probably but since when has Rio ever gone by the rule book? After all he was suspended for 8 months a few years ago. You'd think he would have enough intelligence to do short and simple passing, then again he did miss an important drugs test, so no wonder he continued to pump balls upfield.

The only "long balls" I recall him playing were from well within the T & T half when he and Terry were bringing the ball much further foreward in the build up to help break the defense down. He was hardly knocking them long all day.

Again, I don't like Ferdinand at all but credit where credit's due, he played well yesterday.

by **LFC_fan** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:26 pm

Ferdinand had an 'ok' game. Did wat was expected of him but imo, he never recaptured the form he showed alongside campbell in euro2004 (or was it 2000, gosh im getting old)

as for the fat frank debate, i think we can all agree that he does better for shitski than england because of the different set of players around him. at shitski, he has makelele and essien to clear up, win balls and start attacks behind him while in the england set up, his midfield partner is gerrard which is a completely different mould of player compared with his 2 shitski team mates.

But you guys are right, theres better hope of Serbia and montegero winning the world cup (which is impossible after yesterday's 6-0 drubbbing by the argentians) and mateja kezman ending up as tournament top scorer than sven dropping lampard for carrick (whom imo, would form a more effective central partnership with gerrard)

coming back to the topic, the teams that impressed me so far in the world cup are argentina, the czechs and spain with riquleme especially impressive. he seems to play much better for his country than villareal. no chance of us getting in for him though, and anyway, we have alonso in that position. Alonso and garcia did well for spain but they seem to be a couple of players sitting on the fringe of luis arragonas' first team. it seems to be like a toss up between luis garcia and raul to play on the right side of attack in support of torres and a fight between alonso and albeda for the same midfield slot.

villa has also impressed me a great deal. he showed in the ukraine match that on top of being a good finisher and having great awareness, he was a very intelligent footballer. but unless 25 mil magically appear in our coffers, the chances of signing him are slim at best. but imo, hes the striking solution that we lack of now. bring in villa and a young 18-21 year old promising striker and we will be ready for next season (at least in the striking department)

been trying to keep a look out during the world cup for a good right winger but none has impressed so far. arron lennon impressed when he came on for carra during england's game and with him and lee yong po (who overlaps alot on the flanks even though hes a left back) spurs, has plenty of quality on the flanks.

Liverpool FC Forum

Our players in the world cup - Tracking how our players are faring

Who is online