Bosman 10 years after - Good or bad for football/liverpool fc

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby 73-1141222089 » Sat May 20, 2006 4:46 pm

john craig wrote:
Imkhawx wrote:
john craig wrote:
Imkhawx wrote:I can't validate this with numbers but bear with me and assume that the average footballer in Britain earns 3000 pounds a week.. If you do the math, in a 15 year career, the footballer earns approximately 2.4 million pounds before tax.... If you think about it, thats not that much different from what a professional in other areas can earn in their 40 year career....

I accept your arguments, with freedom of contract after you've done the job for the agreed time etc, but with football it's different.  Clubs pay huge transfer fees to bring players into clubs, so for a player to be able to walk away for nothing at the end of the deal is obviously bad for the club.  I can't think of too many other professions where a company has to pay such a huge fee to bring in an employee on top of their wages.  The whole 'freedom of contract' situation in football stinks imo.  It would only truly be fair if transfer fees were abolished completely and all players were forced to stay at a club until their contract expires, when they could then move on.  At the moment contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on.

And I just quoted the part of your post above to highlight another point.  I accept footballers have short careers, but the majority of them are overpaid for what they have to do, even players outside the premiership.  It's a short career, but what is there to stop them going back to university or getting a less well-paid job when they finish playing??  That's what the rest of us have to do isn't it?  So I don't buy into the whole 'poor footballers they have a short career' bullsh.it.  They chose the career in the first place.

On the seond point you raised, I beg to differ....

Professional sportsmen have to sacrifice a great deal in order to make their dreams come true..... In many cases, this includes their education...

They know that they may only ever get 1 shot to make their choice a success and most will pull out all the stops and make all the sacrifices that they feel is necessary....

I've read many interviews and comments from footballers on what they would have done with their lives if football was suddenly taken away form them...... Many a time, the responses they give is that they'd probably be a barman, tradesmen etc.....

Among them were greats like Best, Pele etc etc....

I think that it's best to agree to disagree on this one...

Fair enough mate, we'll agree to disagree on that one.

The only thing I will say on that though, is that what's wrong with being a barman or a tradesman?

Footballers still get paid way too much in general, despite what sacrifices they've made to get there.  I just don't think you can defend that by saying 'they deserve it because it's a short career'.  It's not as if they can't fulfill some other role in society when they finish playing other than play golf.

Cheers mate.....

Good discussion this thread....
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Postby yckatbjywtbiastkamb » Sat May 20, 2006 8:48 pm

s@int wrote:a very good post there Imkhawx. People seem to forget that Liverpool (Houllier/Parry?) allowed Owen to run his contract down after having said after McManaman that they would never let it happen again. I dont believe Rafa would have allowed this situation to have developed. A firm sign or be sold the year before would have solved all the problems.

it`s easy having that attitude now with a good no, great manager at the helm and the future looking rosy.
at that time losing owen and the signals that would have sent out would have been to much for some reds to contemplate.
the board knew this and just buried their heads in the sand and hoped eveything would turn out right.
thanks to rafa it did.
make no mistake when rafa took over the club was at a critical juncture.
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Postby yckatbjywtbiastkamb » Sat May 20, 2006 8:58 pm

Imkhawx wrote:
john craig wrote:
Imkhawx wrote:I can't validate this with numbers but bear with me and assume that the average footballer in Britain earns 3000 pounds a week.. If you do the math, in a 15 year career, the footballer earns approximately 2.4 million pounds before tax.... If you think about it, thats not that much different from what a professional in other areas can earn in their 40 year career....

I accept your arguments, with freedom of contract after you've done the job for the agreed time etc, but with football it's different.  Clubs pay huge transfer fees to bring players into clubs, so for a player to be able to walk away for nothing at the end of the deal is obviously bad for the club.  I can't think of too many other professions where a company has to pay such a huge fee to bring in an employee on top of their wages.  The whole 'freedom of contract' situation in football stinks imo.  It would only truly be fair if transfer fees were abolished completely and all players were forced to stay at a club until their contract expires, when they could then move on.  At the moment contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on.

And I just quoted the part of your post above to highlight another point.  I accept footballers have short careers, but the majority of them are overpaid for what they have to do, even players outside the premiership.  It's a short career, but what is there to stop them going back to university or getting a less well-paid job when they finish playing??  That's what the rest of us have to do isn't it?  So I don't buy into the whole 'poor footballers they have a short career' bullsh.it.  They chose the career in the first place.

On the seond point you raised, I beg to differ....

Professional sportsmen have to sacrifice a great deal in order to make their dreams come true..... In many cases, this includes their education...

They know that they may only ever get 1 shot to make their choice a success and most will pull out all the stops and make all the sacrifices that they feel is necessary....

I've read many interviews and comments from footballers on what they would have done with their lives if football was suddenly taken away form them...... Many a time, the responses they give is that they'd probably be a barman, tradesmen etc.....

Among them were greats like Best, Pele etc etc....

I think that it's best to agree to disagree on this one...

sacrifice their education? come on mate, most footballers hated the academic side of school, these are usually working class lads who just want to mess around most of the time.
and whilst your feeling sorry for these hard done by footballers with short careers dont forget its the tradesmen and barmen, who pay out money most of them can ill afford, through the turnstiles to pay their wages.
its a good job at least the fans have got loyalty to their clubs and the game in general because if they had the attitude of some players and agents they`d keep their money in their pockets.
the people who usually come off worst in this situation are the fans. even if a player suffers a worst case scenario in his career and has to give up the game he is only joining the same boat the fans are in i.e the real world.
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Postby Bad Bob » Sat May 20, 2006 9:00 pm

I'm with Imkhawx on this one.  As much as it hurts to watch a great player hold his club to ransom by threatening to leave on a free, it doesn't outweigh the importance of having players able to ply their trade in a free and open market place.  In the old system, players were basically chattel and no worker anywhere in the world deserves that kind of infringement on their ability to make a living.

There are always going to be players doing a "Macca" or an "Owen" in this game and their will always be fans who despise them for it (check out the Owen thread for proof!) but, by and large, I think the system works pretty well as is.

And, on the issue of the Bosman ruling increasing the numbers of foreign players, that has been a huge positive in my eyes.  Football is the world's most cosmopolitan sport and having such international squads simply underscores that point.  Hell, it might even go some way towards dispelling some of the xenophobia and racism that have hamstrung our societies for so long. :cool:
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Postby stmichael » Sat May 20, 2006 9:13 pm

the bosman ruling is the worst thing that ever happened to football.
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Postby 73-1141222089 » Sun May 21, 2006 11:05 am

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
Imkhawx wrote:
john craig wrote:
Imkhawx wrote:I can't validate this with numbers but bear with me and assume that the average footballer in Britain earns 3000 pounds a week.. If you do the math, in a 15 year career, the footballer earns approximately 2.4 million pounds before tax.... If you think about it, thats not that much different from what a professional in other areas can earn in their 40 year career....

I accept your arguments, with freedom of contract after you've done the job for the agreed time etc, but with football it's different.  Clubs pay huge transfer fees to bring players into clubs, so for a player to be able to walk away for nothing at the end of the deal is obviously bad for the club.  I can't think of too many other professions where a company has to pay such a huge fee to bring in an employee on top of their wages.  The whole 'freedom of contract' situation in football stinks imo.  It would only truly be fair if transfer fees were abolished completely and all players were forced to stay at a club until their contract expires, when they could then move on.  At the moment contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on.

And I just quoted the part of your post above to highlight another point.  I accept footballers have short careers, but the majority of them are overpaid for what they have to do, even players outside the premiership.  It's a short career, but what is there to stop them going back to university or getting a less well-paid job when they finish playing??  That's what the rest of us have to do isn't it?  So I don't buy into the whole 'poor footballers they have a short career' bullsh.it.  They chose the career in the first place.

On the seond point you raised, I beg to differ....

Professional sportsmen have to sacrifice a great deal in order to make their dreams come true..... In many cases, this includes their education...

They know that they may only ever get 1 shot to make their choice a success and most will pull out all the stops and make all the sacrifices that they feel is necessary....

I've read many interviews and comments from footballers on what they would have done with their lives if football was suddenly taken away form them...... Many a time, the responses they give is that they'd probably be a barman, tradesmen etc.....

Among them were greats like Best, Pele etc etc....

I think that it's best to agree to disagree on this one...

sacrifice their education? come on mate, most footballers hated the academic side of school, these are usually working class lads who just want to mess around most of the time.
and whilst your feeling sorry for these hard done by footballers with short careers dont forget its the tradesmen and barmen, who pay out money most of them can ill afford, through the turnstiles to pay their wages.
its a good job at least the fans have got loyalty to their clubs and the game in general because if they had the attitude of some players and agents they`d keep their money in their pockets.
the people who usually come off worst in this situation are the fans. even if a player suffers a worst case scenario in his career and has to give up the game he is only joining the same boat the fans are in i.e the real world.

You're probably right bout the education bit of the argument.....

However, if you have one chance to make good money, wouldn't you take it?

As they say, you can't miss what you never had.....

If it was me, knowing I had one shot at making it big, I'd give it all I've got and protect my income as best as I can......

Only a very small percentage of the "working class lads who just want to mess around most of the time" make it to the big time...... For everyone else , we just plod on with our lives..... but doesn't stop us from buying the lottery tickets every so often in the hopes of striking it rich does it?

For most footballers, turning professional is their winning lottery ticket... Can't blame them for wanting to ensure that the pay-off is as big as possible...

Yes it's true that their wages are being paid out by the "tradesmen and barmen, who pay out money most of them can ill afford".... but it's also true that its our choice to go to the game and enjoy it..... it's our form of release and entertainment in life..... And as with everything else, these services are not free..... we dictate the demand and the supply is short.

Clubs make money from us too you know...... Over the years, how many times have the gates doubled or trebled? I'd say a pretty long time...... So before players wages got so exorbitant, what were the clubs doing with the revenue generated from the fans pockets..... They were pocketing it themselves and getting rich.... with sweat of the back of the players and the fans...... and why did we allow that to happen? Cause the clubs provided a service to the public.....

Like I said before, don't get me wrong.... LFC is on my chest AND in my heart.... I love it to bits..... but I also believe in free trade and an open economy.... for better or for worse......
:grinning:
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Postby ivor_the_injun » Sun May 21, 2006 2:45 pm

One thing the Bosman ruling brought about is the rise of football agents. This is definitely not a good thing.

I've always been of the opinion that the ruling was inherantly good, but dealt with appallingly by clubs, and abused terribly by agents. It's ridiculous, for example, how many transfer sagas get drawn out in the press, when strictly speaking there should be no more than 6 people (2 sets of managers, 2 chairmen, 1 player and 1 agent) in on discussions. That being the case, if I were a chairman, I'd make it a club rule that any talk of contracts or transfers that gets leaked to the press warrants disciplinary action. 19 times out of 20 it will be the agent that's responsible for the leak, and it'd encourage them to clean up their act.

I'm all for players getting a bit of security, but in some cases it seems to arrive a little too easily. How many Prem players, for example, end up permanently benched while they rake in a £10k+ weekly salary? It should be a condition of contract that a player plays for x number of games per season in order to fulfil their side of the contract, or else their employer reserves the right to render the contract null and void at the end of the current season. That'd instantly end the practice of players sitting out a contract, coining it in before moving on for free when the contract ends. This is the case with Diao and Cheyrou, who are still on the LFC payroll despite not having a prayer of seeing action for the club again.
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Postby account deleted by request » Sun May 21, 2006 4:11 pm

Having read with great interest the well reasoned (well most lol) arguments raised I will now throw in mine. As with the overthrow of the maximum wage, Bosman was cited by the "doom and gloom merchants" as being the downfall of football and that within a few years many great clubs would cease to exist. While this almost happened (to a few) football adapted over time and continues to grow stronger. The problem now appears to me to be the growing dependance of clubs on "outside " money from advertising,shirt sales,other commercial sales, and by far the biggest TV revenue. Clubs are now gambling their future wellbeing on Champions League and Premier League status to receive their share of the lucrative TV money rather than on their gate receipts. This is fine as long as TV companies continue to pour money into football but what happens when or if they decide football is no longer a viable proposition. The huge wages players receive will be unsustainable yet still need to be met. Transfer values will plummet thereby reducing a clubs market value. Banks will no longer be as understanding of "tempory cash flow problems".
           Yet I believe football would change and adapt once again, clubs would disappear but other better run clubs would rise in their place because football is just too great a game to lose or fade away.
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Postby 48-1119859832 » Sun May 21, 2006 8:34 pm

I don't agree with the bosman rule, especially seeing as it's a gate way for the elite clubs to steal away smaller clubs best prized players without any form of compensation. And it's also gives players more control over decisions than the club, this is like the Trade Unions being bigger and more powerful than their respective employers, which is not on.

Another thing that annoys me about the bosman ruling is that it allows players to run down their contracts and then leave for a free come the end of it. McManaman did this and we could of perhaps recieved a substantial amount for a player of his ability, he was one of our best players at that particular time and we got £0.00 pence for him.

Another example would be Chelsea's latest signing Michael Ballack, Bayern Munich's key player who was so instrumental in their success down the years has flown the nest to Chelsea on a free transfer and Bayern Munich don't see a penny.

This to me is absolutely disgraceful, whilst a player has the right to call it a day come the end of his contract, because he has served his time, the club that he has left on a free from should be owed a fair amount of compensation from their best players leaving etc.
Last edited by 48-1119859832 on Sun May 21, 2006 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ConnO'var » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:59 pm

was looking over some of the older threads when I came across this one yesterday.
took me 2 whole days to digest this as theres a lot to absorb.

don't really have an opinion one way or another but I must say, that in the so called off-season, this is by far the most interesting and well argued thread, on both sides of the argument, I've come across.

Interesting read.
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Postby Big Niall » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:58 pm

In principle I think it is fair - we can all leave our jobs when we want to.

I do, however, feel that football lost a potentially great team with Ajax. Davids, Kluivart, Overmars, DeBoers, Litmanen,Kanu(was good once), Seedorf and others I can't think of never got to grow up together as a team. They could have been truly exceptional.
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