Liverpool FC Forum

by **XSD** » Sun May 16, 2004 7:05 pm

example of Stu's point:

Liverpool won the league with 8 games remaining, and cocked all those up but it didn't matter :P

I agree with most of what you are saying stu, but you haven't covered why we didn't sufficiently improve after Owen, Baros, Hamann and Carragher were all available again. Continuity and confidence come into this of course, as you said, but isn't Houllier's task to inspire confidence and motivation in our players?
Still, good point, a whole chunk of our season was eaten by injuries, which is one cause of the big gap between ourselves and the 3rd place.

by **115-1073096938** » Sun May 16, 2004 8:26 pm

Right i admitted i expected it to to be like the last 4 games or so as soon as the players came back but things just didn't go.

At the end of the day, we are the 4th best in the league and this isn't good enough. However there are foundations there to become a much improved unit next season. Cisse will be a massive improvement on Heskey who we know is leaving.

We also know Houllier wants a centre half which has been a main problem position this season.

I don't think for one second 4th is good enough but the problems were obvious and our manager is looking for soloutions and the players we are being linked with are all better than we currently have which leaves me feeling a sense of optimism.

When the players came back you could see the confidence of the players in the side was already drained. They then had to form an understanding with each other with no confidence.

Next season we will get a truer reflection of the team as a whole. If its still the same i'll be the first to admit i was wrong, but i believe the Birmingham result and these last 5 games are the way we are going to start next season. A bit more consistency, aggression and quality.

by **XSD** » Sun May 16, 2004 8:48 pm

Foundations, yes. I admit I can see the team being stronger, that is why I inch ever so slightly towards Houllier being given another season. Does it take 5-6 years to build foundations though? He has been pretty damn slow about it, and if next season isn't when it obviously starts to pay off there cannot be any doubt about whether Houllier should remain.

by **115-1073096938** » Sun May 16, 2004 9:10 pm

It can take a few years yes.

3 maybe 4.

It took George Graham 4 and a bit at spurs, then they sacked him once they were starting to get it right.

The fact is he's waited for Gerrard and Owen to develope. These two are two of the very few genuine world class players in English football. Sometimes you need them to learn off other players and this is something that helps bring there game on and make them the players they are. Once they have developed there own games then you can build a side around them.

As i've said in the past the way i see it is this:

1st team

Owen ?
Kewell Hamann Gerrard ?
Riise Hyypia ? Finnan
Kirkland

2nd team

Pongolle Baros
Smicer Welsh Le Tallec Murphy
Vignal Traore Henchoz Carragher
Dudek

For me there is alot of quality and youth there, he just needs to bring in the required players in the first team.

Cisse being the answer upfront.

The rest i'm unsure of but i think with the right players thats a hell of a squad we have, also if he was to replace Hamann with a more creative player in the middle for us then that would make the 2nd string even stronger.

We have a superb foundation which needs the final pieces putting in place, they are addmittedly big pieces, one is on his way tho, so who knows?

by **XSD** » Sun May 16, 2004 9:30 pm

A few big signings I would think to fill those positions. Gerrard and Owen are the only names that leap out of that first team card, we want a few other big names to compete with Arsenal/Chelsea.
Those teams would look good, but don't you think Hamann needs to be replaced? He is a good player, but has a very boring defensive style. If we had a new pacy, centre half we would have room for a more aggressive centre midfield to help supplying passes (a Bergkamp character?).
Gerrard is capable of this obviously, but he needs the pressure taken off him, the Newcastle game was a good example of how he does everything in midfield..he just shot out of nowhere making runs down the centre, left and right all the time. The right winger is important for this, but I want to see a right winger capable of scoring 12 a season to support the main goalscorers.

Agreed though that centre half and stiker are the areas most lacking. Cissé has me quite excited about prospects for next season, I just hope he can settle quickly and make the post of whatever service our midfield can give him.

by **mrcool2003** » Sun May 16, 2004 11:30 pm

well i guess u're right stu, abou the newcastle match

i just hope the matches they played before that are the signs of things to come and not just false hope again

the thing that worries me is, hes keeping players that aren't good backup, i don't think biscan or traore should be here, they are nervous and shaky at the back, i would like to see more youth next season, give me players a chance in the league cup at least, just like arsenal and man utd do, give them a run out, have a look at them

by **115-1073096938** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:02 am

You can look at players n the reserves and at under 19s level you don't need them to play in the first team to see if they are good enough.

When players are good enough they will come through and make the first team.

by **dawson99** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:05 am

ive hearda l ot about stephen galagher recently but dont know much about him, anyone know?
hes one of our youth boys right?

by **RedSi** » Mon May 17, 2004 12:18 pm

What do you think of Malbranque Stu....? I think that if Cisse lives up to the hype and we get in a quality centre-back (Gallas would be nice and is already acclimatised to the Prem) Malbranque could be the final piece in the jigsaw....a midfield of Kewell, Hamman (for one more season), Stevie and Steed would be mouthwatering imho.

by **stmichael** » Mon May 17, 2004 12:21 pm

outside of the top 3, steed malbranque is the most creative midfield player in the premiership. sheer class and proven in this league over a number of seasons. he would be class for us alongside stevie g as he is not a right winger.

by **Owzat** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:09 pm

stu_the_red wrote:Again you show your lack of understanding, football knowledge, knowledge of pshycology and also your stupidity aswell as damn right ignorance and pathetic stats just to suit a ****** arguement that anyone with an ounce of common sense can see is false. Our injuries this season have cost us big time!!!

When you miss your first choice player and the backup option for that position you are going to suffer. Owen was out injured for three months. Now had Baros been available for those three months do you not think that would have softened the blow a little bit? Do you not think Baros would have started those games when Owen wasn't there? Do you not think Baros and Liverpool would have benifitted from this? Do you really think that missing these players at the same time happens all the time to all the clubs in the league? Check your facts and look at how many games Van Nistlerooy and Henry have played then come back.

Are you really that stupid?

As for Henchoz... remind me who played centre back in the first game of the season before going off injured? How long was he injured for?? How many games has Henchoz been available for and not played??

Also what your stats do not show is that we were left without a specialised right back for 11 LEAGUE games this season and tht was at the same time we were missing Hamann and Owen and Baros. Now, lets say Murphy is decent cover for Hamann, that means one position is not to bad but the right back position becomes a liability and the strikers role goes to a kid or another midfielder... and you expect that not to cost us anything at all?? It also doesn't show that when we played against United at home we were not only missing Hamann and Owen, but we didn't have Carragher, Henchoz or Baros available for selection. Its not like Only Owen was out so we could call upon Baros for a game... We had NO OPTIONS!!! Its not even like he could have changed it from the bench as there was nothing there worth bringing on.

Baros would have started had he been fit and so would Carragher and Hamann.

They also don't show in the first game of the season we were playing against a big spending chelsea side missing BOTH central midfielders. Not one but two at the same time. When you are playing against the big sides you need your best players fit and in the team, Alex Ferguson says that aswell as all the other top managers... in that game we were missing two of our best and probably the two most important positions in the side.

Also what your stats don't show is the obvious effect this has on confidence and morale of the team aswell as continuity and selection.

Don't give me this ****** about Houllier changing winning sides, when we win games and do well he rarely changes it unless he needs to and if he does its more times than not only one player.

Continuity and confidence are a massive part of football. Look at Arsenal.

bu11$sh1t - as usual

No worthwhile evidence, just your usual blend of hot air and *****, so shut the ***** up. You come out with insults and cobblers - hardly the argument of an intelligent person. So manure and Arsenal haven't had major injuries - neither have we and I never said they had "stupid". Methinks you can't understand stats or can't argue with them so you just bleat on about how little value they represent. You talk sh11te

Owen, Hyypia, Kewell, Dudek, Gerrard, Murphy and - all available for 30 games

Biscan was preferred to Henchoz, now Carragher. Heskey has been preferred to Baros, another player you can exzclude

Hamann, Finnan and Carragher missing for some of the season granted, but two or three mid-term absentees is hardly an injury crisis

by **dawson99** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:12 pm

wasnt owen injured for ages? or did it just seem that way? hehe

i know we shouldnt have excuses but feck it, why not. judging by the teams ive watched this season i have to say chelski and ****** have outplayed us but overall i cant see how manure have beaten us in the league... they look a VERY average side saved only by 1 or 2 players.

we still got a load of catching up to do but the final few games of the season has at least given me half a smile for next term when we will have a few world class players added hopefully, and a few lower class players booted out

by **Redtribe** » Mon May 17, 2004 2:01 pm

yep Owen was injured for a long time!

He never really managed to get his form back for the rest of the season

Although the last few games he is looking sharper!

by **Owzat** » Tue May 18, 2004 1:59 pm

Starts 2003/4

30 Dudek vs 32 Howard
38 Hyypia vs 20 Ferdinand
27 Biscan vs 33 Silvestre
15 Henchoz vs 15 Brown
22 Carragher vs 32 O'Shea
22 Riise vs 29 P.Neville
19 Finnan vs 30 G.Neville

36 Kewell vs 24 Giggs
34 Gerrard vs 24 Scholes
25 Hamann vs 25 Keane
20 Diouf vs 15 Ronaldo
19 Murphy vs 12 Butt

29 Owen vs 31 Van Nistelrooy
25 Heskey vs 20 Forlan

361 Liverpool vs 342 Man Utd*

*allowances to be made for Ferdinand being banned not injured

by **115-1073096938** » Tue May 18, 2004 7:26 pm

You really do talk the biggest pile of ****** ever

My arguement is clear as daylight.

When you are missing a player you need to have sufficient backup. When that backup is injured it will severely weaken a position in your team. When more than one position is severely weakend it can seriously effect even the best sides in the world (which Liverpool are clearly nowhere near at present).

When you can't select your best players you aren't going to perform to the best of your ability. When you don't perform to the best of your ability it affects confidence and morale which further decreases confidence.

Heres a stat for you.

Houllier won more in his first 5 years than Ferguson did in his first 5. Houlliers average league position during this period is also alot better.

Argue with that?

You are a know nothing pillock as i've already stated. You argue against fair arguements with stats which tell half of the story. Theres more to football than idiotic stats. Now shut up, get a clue, attend a game, learn about football, then come back. :cool:

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