Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:49 pm

Im sure many of you read Rafa recently saying that it would be ideal for us to get any potential transfer deals sewn up before the World Cup this summer. Now, apart from the obvious financial reasons like players who we are looking to sign having a good tournament and their prices going through the roof, it means we won't be distracted by players who go all out to put themselves in the shop window.

I also constantly hear people drooling over this player and that player because of their success in this seasons CL, but do the words Fernando Morientes mean nothing to everyone?? Probably not, but he's the prime example of a player who was in the shop window at Monaco and on a different stage to the one that we need him on, 38 games a season. A slower paced game, more space, less aggression and closing down, tailor made for a any player with strong technical ability. Sadly a million miles from the hustle and bustle of our very own English game.

Look at Baros in Euro 2004. Would most teams touch him with a bargepole now?? Would he fetch any more than £5m now?? And all this from a player who put the likes of the mighty Holland to the sword so breathtakingly a mere two years ago. The list is endless, El Hadji Diouf was the big one we got stung on.. Diego Forlan has been fabulous in Spain and a joy to watch in the CL, Sir Alex saw enough though..

Which kinda brings us round to Morientes. So he believes that he's beginning to find the form that Liverpool fans have been waiting for, 18 months down the line, and a handful of games before the end of his second campaign. Not good enough Nando.

He also concedes in his interview that some players only begin to play when its crunch time, when contract renewal or a review of the situation is on the cards. Well arguably, with him hitting the back of the net in two of his last few outings, a MASSIVE improvement on the non-exhistent displays of before, the same accusation could be levelled at the man himself. The pressure on, make or break, lets go all out to convince everyone. Again NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

I'm as disappointed as anyone to have seen the lad fail, but it should teach us a lesson about looking at players who've proven themselves at the highest level, in entirely different competition to the gruelling 38 games of the Premiership. There's more to it than how many goals you've scored or how good you look in a Cup competition.

By the same token though, like many I'd like to see us bring in some truly World Class talent, and there's little to go round in the Premiership at the moment that can be considered anything more than mere potential. Gonzalez looks like he'll be a class addition. The likes of Bent, Defoe and co are all "good" players but what we need is the next step up.

There's alot riding on this Summer and if reports are to be believed, alot of money too. Which is why it's important that Rafa gets it 100% right. We made a lot of mistakes last summer despite acquiring some exceptional players. We're just lucky that our captain is so superb and versatile that he is able to fill in at what is still clearly a "problem position" with the minimum of fuss.

People may argue that Rafa has been hit and miss in the transfer market, with the likes of Josemi, Nunez and Pellegrino failing so miserably. But financially, if you look at his successes compared to his failures, we have a multimillion pound set of very good players and a pittance wasted on those less successful. Five out of six of Rafa's "big" signings have been a success in one way or another, with Morientes the most high profile failure and Alonso, Sissoko, Reina, Garcia and Crouch the plus points. So he's shown that when given a reasonable amount to spend he has a good success rate.

Anyone who's watched the reserves and youth team this season will know that he's also spent well and bolstered us for the future on that front. More youngsters seem to be being looked at with the latest a lad who's played a mere two games for Rushden & Diamonds. Just shows that the scouts aren't just spending their time sunning it up looking for the next Raul. Paul Anderson was another who'd barely figured for his club before we stepped in, look at him now..

So all in all there's a lot to be optimistic about, and while I do have some reservations, I trust Rafa enough to get the players we need, provided he's given the backing. You get what you pay for and you rarely get a World Class striker for six or seven million quid. Lets just not get wasteful like Chelsea, blowing almost £30m on a workhorse. I mean Crouch and Sissoko for £12m or Drogba and Essien for £50 million? I know who I'd rather have.

We've got the workhorse, we're flogging the showpony, now lets get our very own thoroughbred and start putting the bigboys to the sword, it's been coming, and next season it will all come to fruition in the Premiership.

Should we really judge players by what we see in the CL and International competition though?

by **metalhead** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:25 pm

stmichael wrote:Im sure many of you read Rafa recently saying that it would be ideal for us to get any potential transfer deals sewn up before the World Cup this summer. Now, apart from the obvious financial reasons like players who we are looking to sign having a good tournament and their prices going through the roof, it means we won't be distracted by players who go all out to put themselves in the shop window.

I also constantly hear people drooling over this player and that player because of their success in this seasons CL, but do the words Fernando Morientes mean nothing to everyone?? Probably not, but he's the prime example of a player who was in the shop window at Monaco and on a different stage to the one that we need him on, 38 games a season. A slower paced game, more space, less aggression and closing down, tailor made for a any player with strong technical ability. Sadly a million miles from the hustle and bustle of our very own English game.

Look at Baros in Euro 2004. Would most teams touch him with a bargepole now?? Would he fetch any more than £5m now?? And all this from a player who put the likes of the mighty Holland to the sword so breathtakingly a mere two years ago. The list is endless, El Hadji Diouf was the big one we got stung on.. Diego Forlan has been fabulous in Spain and a joy to watch in the CL, Sir Alex saw enough though..

Which kinda brings us round to Morientes. So he believes that he's beginning to find the form that Liverpool fans have been waiting for, 18 months down the line, and a handful of games before the end of his second campaign. Not good enough Nando.

He also concedes in his interview that some players only begin to play when its crunch time, when contract renewal or a review of the situation is on the cards. Well arguably, with him hitting the back of the net in two of his last few outings, a MASSIVE improvement on the non-exhistent displays of before, the same accusation could be levelled at the man himself. The pressure on, make or break, lets go all out to convince everyone. Again NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

I'm as disappointed as anyone to have seen the lad fail, but it should teach us a lesson about looking at players who've proven themselves at the highest level, in entirely different competition to the gruelling 38 games of the Premiership. There's more to it than how many goals you've scored or how good you look in a Cup competition.

By the same token though, like many I'd like to see us bring in some truly World Class talent, and there's little to go round in the Premiership at the moment that can be considered anything more than mere potential. Gonzalez looks like he'll be a class addition. The likes of Bent, Defoe and co are all "good" players but what we need is the next step up.

There's alot riding on this Summer and if reports are to be believed, alot of money too. Which is why it's important that Rafa gets it 100% right. We made a lot of mistakes last summer despite acquiring some exceptional players. We're just lucky that our captain is so superb and versatile that he is able to fill in at what is still clearly a "problem position" with the minimum of fuss.

People may argue that Rafa has been hit and miss in the transfer market, with the likes of Josemi, Nunez and Pellegrino failing so miserably. But financially, if you look at his successes compared to his failures, we have a multimillion pound set of very good players and a pittance wasted on those less successful. Five out of six of Rafa's "big" signings have been a success in one way or another, with Morientes the most high profile failure and Alonso, Sissoko, Reina, Garcia and Crouch the plus points. So he's shown that when given a reasonable amount to spend he has a good success rate.

Anyone who's watched the reserves and youth team this season will know that he's also spent well and bolstered us for the future on that front. More youngsters seem to be being looked at with the latest a lad who's played a mere two games for Rushden & Diamonds. Just shows that the scouts aren't just spending their time sunning it up looking for the next Raul. Paul Anderson was another who'd barely figured for his club before we stepped in, look at him now..

So all in all there's a lot to be optimistic about, and while I do have some reservations, I trust Rafa enough to get the players we need, provided he's given the backing. You get what you pay for and you rarely get a World Class striker for six or seven million quid. Lets just not get wasteful like Chelsea, blowing almost £30m on a workhorse. I mean Crouch and Sissoko for £12m or Drogba and Essien for £50 million? I know who I'd rather have.

We've got the workhorse, we're flogging the showpony, now lets get our very own thoroughbred and start putting the bigboys to the sword, it's been coming, and next season it will all come to fruition in the Premiership.

Should we really judge players by what we see in the CL and International competition though?

Good post St.Michael

To answer your question, i believe we should judge a player in playing in major competitons! we should judge players with what we see in the CL and International competition. Look at Ronaldihnio for example, world class talent! plays very well in CL and internationally, but never played in the premiership. But he looks class isn't he? Who knows, he may join the premiership one day and fail!

I don't think it matters where he plays really! Football is football in every country, what differs is the refs! Refs in England likes it more aggressive than the refs in Spain for example. Also in the English League there are more strong built players than the spanish league, but less technical.

I agree with what you are saying, Alot of highly rated players who show they are superb in international competition and CL sometimes tend to fail in others. IMO its the fault of the players who is failing, he isn't living up to standards, in morientes case. He came with big expectations, but the pressure and the inability to to show his physical self that he once showed in other competitions made him an awful aquisition. He looks very optimistic in the sense that he would want to try his best to prove everyone wrong, and i hope one day (if he doesn't leave liverpool in the summer) he does that!

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:06 pm

Just when the forum was in severe danger of becoming an absolute waste of time, one of the old-timers rescues it from the mire with a quality post. Broadly I agree with most of it, but given the quality of Alonso and the juggernaught like arrival of Sissoko into the very top bracket of central midfielders, my hunch is that we are closer to already having the personel which Rafa has in mind. If he were to revert to his favoured 4-5-1 with Gerrard as the most forward of his central midfielders (I personally prefer him on the right but there you go) then you would only need a right-midfielder and another striker to replace the hapless Morientes.
Now given that Gonzales is (apparently according to some on here) going to play on the right-hand side, it wouldn't leave us too far away from our starting eleven. Failing that I guess he could swap with Kewell. Whatever happens, unless Gerrard has come round to thinking that wide right is his best spot (and lets face it, he won the player of the year thing after playing there all season), then he will play in the centre next season. Rafa ain't going to drop Sissoko or Alonso in my view so we may only be a player or two short.
Whatever, great post St Mick.

by **Dundalk** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:22 pm

metalhead wrote:Look at Ronaldihnio for example, world class talent! plays very well in CL and internationally, but never played in the premiership. But he looks class isn't he? Who knows, he may join the premiership one day and fail!

Behave

by **Scottbot** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:04 pm

Great post Saint. Best in a while lad.

It's considerably harder to scout for players to play in england than anywhere else. If you look around Europe all of the top leagues are quite similar to eachother. La Liga and Bundesliga play a little faster than Serie A and Ligue 1 (from what i've seen of the French League) but they are all completely different animals to our own Premiership. Therefore a spanish club could be fairly confident (witihin reason) that a player doing well in Germany or Italy should have no problem adjusting to La Liga. The same doesn't apply in England.

Up till now Rafa's buying policy has gone one of two ways. He has bought players he knows well from La Liga. generally proven quality like Alonso, Morientes and Garcia or solid players (in their own league) such as Josemi and Nunez. This season, having aclimatized to the English game (and English players) and partly due to last seasons poor showing in the league Rafa changed his transfer strategy with the 'proven in the EPL' signings of Zenden, Crouch and then Fowler. We have yet to see Rafa go out and spend big money on a South American wonderkid tearing it up at Boca Juniors and with the financial constraints (compared to Chelsea, Utd and soon Arsenal) he has to work with it's unlikely he ever will.

As for buying players simply/largely on the back of a good World Cup, i don't think it is Rafas' style. We know he is a VERY methodical manager who is obsessive with 'the details' and leaves nothing to chance. when i was a kid i bought Bill Shanklys' autobiography from a jumble sale. It was a good read although i'd love to read it agin if anyone has a copy? In the book i remember shankly saying that if he was thinking of buying a player he would not do it on the basis of a highlight reel of eye catching performances in home games. He said he would rather watch a player away from home on a cold night against the likes of Southampton or Millwall so he could see how they dealt with sessing less of the ball and the crowd on their back. Only then could he get a true measure of the player in question. I figure Rafa is of the same ilk, he does his homework before he goes out to shop.

Houllier got stung with his puchases after the last World Cup and you get the impression he DIDN'T do his homework. Apparently the Diouf deal was done before the tournament started but i don't remember the deal being anounced untill after the group games had finished. The fact that Diouf was bought as a centre-forward (who was hardly prolific) but was playing regularly at right wing by Christmas speaks volumes for the transfer.

International football is as different from the Premiership (maybe more so) than La Liga, Serie A or any other foreign league you could care to mention. Therefore any manager who buys 'big' on the back of a decent tournament without backing it up with similar performances for their club is playing with fire. Just look at Phil Baab, a decent (but no better) player at Coventry but after a fantastic tournament in USA 94' he signed for LFC for a sizeable transfer fee yet will only be remembered for splitting his ballbags on the goal posts.

I would put my money on Rafa tying up most of his transfer business BEFORE the World Cup starts.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:04 pm

Nice one St. Mike!

It is a bit of quandry isn't it? A player that can perform on the biggest stage in world football (WC or CL) should be able to stamp their class on the game in any league. Sadly, though, the rough and tumble of the English game is just not everyone's cup of tea.

The trouble is, it's hard to know who will have the bottle for it and who won't before they arrive. There are certainly 'flair' players abroad that I would question signing just based on the fact that I can't seem them mixing it up with the likes of Lucas Neill on a dark February afternoon in Blackburn. But, I would have certainly put Garcia in that category before he arrived (had I known much about him) and he's shown decent adaptability. As for Nando, I would have thought he had the ability to adapt but, sadly, that doesn't look likely at this point. At the time he looked a very shrewd signing, though.

So, what are the options? Well, either buy established league players and pay well over the odds or take a punt on a foreign player's ability to adapt. It'll always be a bit of a gamble with the latter but it's a risk that needs to be taken in the modern game, IMO.

The positive for me is Rafa. He's a very shrewd judge of talent, for one, so any player he rates and brings in always has a chance of making a big splash, I feel. Moreover, he's been refreshingly quick to rectify his mistakes (e.g. Nunez, Josemi, Pellegrino) and he's someone that works hard to learn from his mistakes (e.g. his approach to the FA Cup last year vs. this year, or are away form in the league). No doubt he's been studying the Nando situation and I have faith that he will: a) send him back to Spain this summer for a decent financial return (or part of a swap deal); and b) figure out why it didn't work so that the next 'World Class" striker he lines up will have a greater likelihood of having the required attributes to suceed in England.

As many have said of late, we're on the up, with just a few pieces left to fit into the puzzle. I don't think Rafa will make the same mistakes Houllier did after the last WC. He'll have a lot of his targets sorted already, I suspect, and is hopefully tying a few things up as we speak. As such, I expect we'll take another step forward this summer and put ourselves in position to push Chelsea all the way next season! :cool:

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:45 pm

I must admit Morientes looked a shoo-in for me when he signed, but it just hasn't happened. He looks like a veteran in his last season.

I think it's fair to say that Rafa has a good idea of where we're short, and at least mentally he'll already have shortlists of potential targets for every position. This'll be on the back of what he's seen, what his trusted contacts will have told him, and not on the odd blinding international game or the odd bit of video footage.

There'll be a lot of business done on the back of World Cup performances, but I'm sure the only part LFC will play on that gravy train will be to hope the likes of Cisse and Moro put some big games together so that another million or two gets added to what we expect to get for them.

by **Scottbot** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:46 pm

Bad Bob wrote:The trouble is, it's hard to know who will have the bottle for it and who won't before they arrive. There are certainly 'flair' players abroad that I would question signing just based on the fact that I can't seem them mixing it up with the likes of Lucas Neill on a dark February afternoon in Blackburn. But, I would have certainly put Garcia in that category before he arrived (had I known much about him) and he's shown decent adaptability.

I was thinking the same thing about Garcia Bob. Physically he's small, lightweight and not particularly strong (at least not like a Zola.) His game is all the unpredictable, all tricks, flicks and magical touches. Everything about the player says he should fail to make the grade in England BUT he's been a revelation. I don't even think he has had to adapt so much. Some of his best form came during the early stages of last season. Of course it helps that he had played for Rafa before at previous clubs so he knew more about the system and the tactics than the players Rafa inherited at Liverpool.

I imagine Rafa still covets a number of his ex-players at Valencia and would not be surprised to see him move for the likes of Canizares, Ayala or Mista to name a few.

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:23 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:I must admit Morientes looked a shoo-in for me when he signed, but it just hasn't happened. He looks like a veteran in his last season.

I think it's fair to say that Rafa has a good idea of where we're short, and at least mentally he'll already have shortlists of potential targets for every position. This'll be on the back of what he's seen, what his trusted contacts will have told him, and not on the odd blinding international game or the odd bit of video footage.

There'll be a lot of business done on the back of World Cup performances, but I'm sure the only part LFC will play on that gravy train will be to hope the likes of Cisse and Moro put some big games together so that another million or two gets added to what we expect to get for them.

My point was (which I kind of missed) was that we need to look at players who have both the determination and the class to do it. I don't want to see us settle for second best. If the likes of Kuyt and Torres are our main targets then I'd like to see us go all out to get them. That said, I'd hope Rafa has done their homework on them and ensured that they have the right mentality to make it in the Premiership. The last thing we need us another one or two Morientes' on our hands. So I hope the Raul stories are boll0cks.

I know we've all been a bit wound up at times this season with regards to the strikers, but we have to admit, that 5 out of 6 of the signings that cost any money are the players that have been the difference this season.

It's never going to happen all at once, and Rafa is a traditional, build-from-the-back style manager. Perfectly suited to this club and its history.

He's finished the work that Ged left at the back and seems to have added to it well for the future. Hopefully we will see him presented with the funds he requires to fill the gaping holes in the squad on the right wing and up-front. He's got it all to do, but it looks completely feasible this summer that we could take the step up.

It's obvious what positions remain to be filled and I imagine Rafa's men have a few options for each position and we'll be seeing massive improvements again next season.

by **Scottbot** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:41 am

Watching the Arsenal game last night i was very impressed with Riquelme in the first half. He was at the centre of everything Villareal did and fully justified the top billing he has received this season. However Arsenal got a lot closer to him second half and pretty much marginalised him. Riquelme will probably be one of THE players of the World Cup and will likely be starring for Madrid, Milan, Barca or one of the big boys next season. But the crazy thing is i'm not sure he would be such a hit in England (i know Utd are supposed to be interested) where the ball would often fly over his head and his lack of pace/quickness be a hindrance.

by **LFC #1** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:03 am

Scottbot wrote:Watching the Arsenal game last night i was very impressed with Riquelme in the first half. He was at the centre of everything Villareal did and fully justified the top billing he has received this season. However Arsenal got a lot closer to him second half and pretty much marginalised him. Riquelme will probably be one of THE players of the World Cup and will likely be starring for Madrid, Milan, Barca or one of the big boys next season. But the crazy thing is i'm not sure he would be such a hit in England (i know Utd are supposed to be interested) where the ball would often fly over his head and his lack of pace/quickness be a hindrance.

Don't think Riquelme would go back to Barca Scottbot. They signed him from Boca and he struggled - so they sold him to Villareal at a snip and he's been brilliant for them.

They don't need him anyway tbh ,they have Xavi, Deco, Messi and Ronaldinho so I don't think he'd fit in their system. I'm not saying he's not good enough for them, he is, but he won't ever play for the Blaugrana again IMO.

Agree with you on the Man Utd point, he'd be another Veron IMO. He likes time on the ball, thats why he excels in Europe, however I think he'd struggle with the pace of the English game. That being said, he might well thrive in a system suited to him. He needs to be the key man in midfield, wherep lay revolves around him. If Man U signed him, he owudl be exactly that so maybe he'd work.

No-one can say whether he'd succeed here or not.

If he doesn't stay at Villareal, he'll go to Madrid though I reckon.

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:09 pm

I hope that rafa already has his ‘hitlist’, finalised at least, prior to the world cup, and isn’t tempted by some striker who scored for Papau New Guinea Pig against Toga or whoever.

Have to point out though that Gerard Houllier had already finalised the signing of El Hadji prior to 2002 and the game against France – remember him crowing on about him pipping everyone to the signing, and at £10m he was a snip? He did look good against Southampton I suppose…

No doubt Moyes will again be there though (as he was in 2002), sitting in the stands in Germany hoping to sign the new Backoftheecho on the back of a superlative cross against Trinidad and Suzanna.

by **Dundalk** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:29 pm

He sounds some player already

by **Scottbot** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:18 pm

This is the best thread on the board at the moment so i've dragged it back up to the top.

by **The Specialist** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:05 pm

Scottbot wrote:Watching the Arsenal game last night i was very impressed with Riquelme in the first half. He was at the centre of everything Villareal did and fully justified the top billing he has received this season. However Arsenal got a lot closer to him second half and pretty much marginalised him. Riquelme will probably be one of THE players of the World Cup and will likely be starring for Madrid, Milan, Barca or one of the big boys next season. But the crazy thing is i'm not sure he would be such a hit in England (i know Utd are supposed to be interested) where the ball would often fly over his head and his lack of pace/quickness be a hindrance.

Did we watch different games? Riquelme was afwul in both games vs Arsenal. In the first leg, he was too well marked and had barely any time or space to do anything. His play wasn't bad or anything, but he had little impact on the game. In the second leg, you say he was at the center of everything Villarreal did - but what he did most was disrupt the attacking play for them. Even the commentators pointed this out. Franco was the one putting in passes a-la Riquelme style more than Riquelme throughout the whole game. Then, the missed penalty. I'm sorry, but I just thought your comments about justifying the "top billing" he has received were bizarre. If you think that was a "top notch" performance and were impressed, you would have to scrape your jaw ooff the floor for a real one. That was like Riquelme at like a 5 or at most 6.5.

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