Liverpool FC Forum

by **puroresu** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:45 am

0asis wrote:
puroresu wrote:Oh and Defoe's record actually shows someone who has never been prolific.

He'd be a vast improvement on Cisse, altho just to set the record str8 I'd much rather we signed Bellamy.

And before you shoot me down, Bellamy not been the most prolific either but there's more to strikers/forwards game then just scoring.

I like Bellamy. At Newcastle he was misused and was only their to make sure Shearer did well. Bit like Heskey at Liverpool.

Infact Souness played Bellamy RW which is damn right stupid. Watched a lot of Bellamy when he was on loan at Celtic as well and he was awesome. This year his really come on and would be a far better buy than Defoe.

by **bng89** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:48 am

I could be the next roman ambromvich. But not gay

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:00 pm

Graeme Noble wrote:Cisse is better than Crouch, full stop.

People who think otherwise are idiots and don't understand football.

that's the biggest load of cr@p i've heard since i saw gollum on MOTD on saturday saying that everton's european campaign "wore them out physically and mentally" at the start of the season.

by **Judge** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:03 pm

stmichael wrote:
Graeme Noble wrote:Cisse is better than Crouch, full stop.

People who think otherwise are idiots and don't understand football.

that's the biggest load of cr@p i've heard since i saw gollum on MOTD on saturday saying that everton's european campaign "wore them out physically and mentally" at the start of the season.

lol

by **The Ace1983** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:49 pm

What's the point of comparing Cisse to Crouch? Ok, they both play up front but they are completely different types of player. And if you're going to say Cisse's better, clarify the criteria which you are using. Granted he'd win on Pace, Power and Aggression, but Crouch would easily triumph when it comes to Assists, creativity, passing, possitioning, first touch, general control, team spirit, work ethic, potential and the ability to actually play football. The unfortunate thing is that shot accuracy is not a major part of either's game at the moment and if I were forced to choose between a £7m player who will try to create a chance rather than hashing it himself or a £14m player who is more than likely to just waste what oppertunity he gets, I'd take the former any day.

Cisse never lived up to his promise, and it is unlikely that he ever will and even though he has flashes of brilliance, they are lost in the blinding light of his more than regular howlers. At half the price, we got a forward that does more for the team, scores goals as well (not enough for my liking, but still) and has proved his worth time and again.

But comparing them is a flawed concept. It's like comparing a pizza and a curry. Ok, they do the same job and should always be heading towards the mouth, but their attributes are polar to each other, they share few ingredients and they offer completely different textures and eventualities. So if you're going to compare them, do it properly and compare aspects of them, rather than the whole package and don't just blindly fall into a "them and us" scenario.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:11 pm

The Ace1983 wrote:What's the point of comparing Cisse to Crouch? Ok, they both play up front but they are completely different types of player. And if you're going to say Cisse's better, clarify the criteria which you are using. Granted he'd win on Pace, Power and Aggression, but Crouch would easily triumph when it comes to Assists, creativity, passing, possitioning, first touch, general control, team spirit, work ethic, potential and the ability to actually play football. The unfortunate thing is that shot accuracy is not a major part of either's game at the moment and if I were forced to choose between a £7m player who will try to create a chance rather than hashing it himself or a £14m player who is more than likely to just waste what oppertunity he gets, I'd take the former any day.

Cisse never lived up to his promise, and it is unlikely that he ever will and even though he has flashes of brilliance, they are lost in the blinding light of his more than regular howlers. At half the price, we got a forward that does more for the team, scores goals as well (not enough for my liking, but still) and has proved his worth time and again.

But comparing them is a flawed concept. It's like comparing a pizza and a curry. Ok, they do the same job and should always be heading towards the mouth, but their attributes are polar to each other, they share few ingredients and they offer completely different textures and eventualities. So if you're going to compare them, do it properly and compare aspects of them, rather than the whole package and don't just blindly fall into a "them and us" scenario.

Too right, Ace!

It does my head in, these facile 'comparisons' and either-or allegiances...

Oh, and nice analogy mate...it's lunch time in these parts and you've just given me my own 'selection problem'!

by **The Ace1983** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:12 pm

Lunch? Gotta be Pizza. Means you can leave it longer till Dinner.

by **Morth** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:18 pm

What immediatly strikes me about Cisse, is how good he could be in Spain.

His game is built around running into channels in stretched defences, like he had plenty of opportunity to do in France. Having watched around 20-25 Primeira matches this year, I feel I am at least somewhat entitled to make the above statement. There's often alot of stretch in Spanish football, coming either from hazardous attacking play, or simply the lack of midfield pressure (Note: Many teams have very organized midfields, but generally, the midfields I've seen offer nothing in terms of defensive pressure compared to the English game.) With that, a quick pass "behind" the midfield, can open the channels for a striker like Cisse, as the defender will have to do the pressure, and there's where I think Cisse would and did get his goals.

To question Gerrard Houllier's decision making when you see the type of player Cisse was, is wrong, I agree with the sentiment that had we continued Houllier's style of play, we would have gotten the most out of Cisse. But at what price?

Granted, it wasn't as obvious when he was scoring for fun in France, but the fashion of his goals were that of running into channels, behind defenders who applied pressure. And that's just not how it works for a big club in England. Especially not if you're playing the kind of possession football that we are under Benitez.

What I think we need is either a strong burly fox in the box player like RVN. Dirk Kuyt I think would be our best bet on a player like that, only because I feel we've lost out on Villa, him being bound longterm to Valencia and all.
Or: Simply a natural goalscorer, like Fowler was, like Owen is and, potentially, what Bellamy could be for us.

I realize Cisse has glaring pace, and that it should always be an option to have in offense, but to be honest, Cisse's pace doesn't offer us much as possessive as we play. There's a difference between having panther-like pace like Cisse has, and having pace as an option, like say Defoe and Bellamy.

I like what I'm hearing about Cisse off the pitch (Professionally, not personal life), that he hangs around the academy and talks to and trains with the youngsters. I truly believe he loves the club, and that he is trying his best to stay here, his workrate has imrpoved amongst other things. I just don't think he's the right player type for Liverpool ano. Rafael Benitez.

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:24 pm

It's this talk of him "only not producing because he's out of position" bollox that does my head in. The truth is, even upfront, he's not done it. As far as I have seen his position is not on a football field , unless it has an athletics track around it & he is haring down tha back straight !

As Bad Bob says, his goal tally includes goals in the qualifying rounds against part timers, a cross which was mishit, a blatant handball and two penalties.

It's quite simply pathetic that anybody can use the argument (as flawed as it is) of "oh well he's better than crouch" as a reason for him to be playing week in week out. Anybody with half a brain can see that the guy is not good enough for LFC.

by **madred** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:46 am

stmichael wrote:It's this talk of him "only not producing because he's out of position" bollox that does my head in. The truth is, even upfront, he's not done it. As far as I have seen his position is not on a football field , unless it has an athletics track around it & he is haring down tha back straight !

As Bad Bob says, his goal tally includes goals in the qualifying rounds against part timers, a cross which was mishit, a blatant handball and two penalties.

It's quite simply pathetic that anybody can use the argument (as flawed as it is) of "oh well he's better than crouch" as a reason for him to be playing week in week out. Anybody with half a brain can see that the guy is not good enough for LFC.

I reckon that the people who believe that Cisse has something to offer never witnessed players like Dalglish, Rush, Beardsley etc. Interesting how Rush has said in the echo how much he'd like to see Bellamy at Liverpool and although he's claimed it would be good to see a welshman back there he's not going to say he will do a better job than the likes of Cisse though that might be his thinking? The only reason Cisse stayed at the club for this season was because Benitez couldnt get his man but in the summer with new additions Cisse has to go. Quite simply is not good enough for the club.

by **puroresu** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:32 am

What do people think Juve fans were saying about Ian Rush when he went their? The great Ian Rush who was a natural but struggled so badly at Juve. However that did not make him a :censored:

player.

And no I am not trying to compare Cisse to Rush just using an example that even the great players struggle some times.

I like this article:

This piece was written by a guy called Paul Tomkins, it is a bit long but I think he is spot on...

Djibril Cissé is turning into one of Liverpool's greatest. Of course, I mean greatest enigmas.

I'm a big fan of Cissé, but if he's stretching my patience, it's easy to conclude how his manager feels. His inconsistency doesn't stretch match to match, but minute to minute. It’s enough to leave you pulling out your Mohican.

Cissé does some brilliant things: a great backheel, a stunning cross, a thumping shot, a burst of electric pace. But they are nearly always followed with a wayward pass, a simple error, a basic miscontrol.

His instincts seem at odds with his instructions. He's a frustrating player, but also seems constantly frustrated with himself and with the world (on the pitch at least). At times he looks like he doesn't even know what he's doing, confused as to where he should run.

It's like he's so desperate to please and to fit in with what the manager wants, he's lost sight of his natural game, and is neither doing what Rafa requests nor what is best for him. When he runs at defenders he seems hesitant half the time, and too eager the other half, and the anxiety sees him overrun the ball.

Cissé is different to the frustrating Emile Heskey, who I felt could be a much more effective player, and use his bull-like strength to greater effect; Cissé, unlike Heskey, is a natural striker: it's about the positions you take up, your preparedness to get into the six-yard box (even if you sky the ball over the bar), or to take a shot when only half a chance presents itself. Cissé has all those latter attributes; he's just not been very good at executing them.

Every time he plays, he feels on trial. It's his 'big chance'. He has to score, or he's out on the wing, or out of the side; and sometimes, even if he has scored, that happens, if Rafa, who likes to rotate his strikers, feels another more suited for the next fixture. Cissé looks anxious, lacking in confidence. Watch his goals for Auxerre, and there's a supreme confidence about him. But at Auxerre he felt at home, in his element.

His technique for most of those goals in France was sublime, his reactions first-rate. He produced all manner of finishes, from the powerful to the subtle and cheeky. His record, in a top league, was phenomenal. But he was the main man, le :censored:

of the roost.

Cissé is a natural finisher, but one lacking confidence and I just don't see him ever getting it at Anfield. Without confidence, a striker will always look unnatural. If you only watched Michael Owen on his bad days, you'd conclude the same; but Owen has a more robust mentality.

I just don't see an ideal marriage between what Benítez wants and what Cissé offers; but Cissé's pace, along with the promise of what he might just come up with, tempts the manager. My view is that Gérard Houllier would have got far more out of Cissé for Liverpool; but that Benítez can shape a far better Liverpool than Houllier, and that's all that counts.

This is about getting the best out of the team, not one player. But of all the players at Liverpool, Cissé is one of those I've been desperate to see succeed, especially after his injury last season and the way he worked so hard to get fit so soon. I would love to see him scoring week-in, week-out. But I'd prefer to see the team winning, and it's up to the manager to field the best team to do that.

If Benítez went out of his way to placate Cissé, to offer him the arm around the shoulder as well as weekly reassurances (in the way I feel Houllier, who paid all that money, would have), it would go against his successful methods and perhaps diminish the aura the manager wants to create.

The point is that Rafa doesn't single out individuals for special attention. There's no favouritism, with the possible exception of his attempts to keep Steven Gerrard last summer, after he too failed to feel loved by the manager. The fact is that you can make an exception to your rule for a player as proven and as crucial as Gerrard; his performances for the club have earned a little leeway. Cissé's haven't.

Cissé's season actually mirrors Ian Rush's year in Turin: a few cup goals against weak opposition (Rushie scored five in one cup game for Juventus) but not enough in the league. Liverpool's record goalscorer only managed 14 goals in Italy, just seven in the league. His teammates were never quite on the same wavelength. How can the deadliest striker in English football in the '80s fail so miserably in Turin? After all, he was a natural, right?

As with examples like Diego Forlan, who went on to be the top scorer in Spain, it shows that finishers need stability, security.

I'm guessing Benítez sees Cissé’s ability in training, as in training a player is relaxed. Training is when you see the true player, in terms of pure ability, but it's on the pitch where you need to see how pressure affects that ability. If you can't translate it into performances on matchday, it's of no use.

It's about fitting into your environment, feeling loved (or trusted), understanding what's required. It's a number of factors that conspire so that when you step over that white line, you are focussed, relaxed and full of self-belief. Strikers who are not relaxed snatch at chances, try too hard. Instead of clarity in the moment, your head is a mix of conflicting messages, and you end up doing something that is neither one thing nor the other.

Despite his difficulties at Liverpool, I believe Cissé will go on to be a big success somewhere else. There is a hugely talented player in there, just dying to get out. But he will need another Guy Roux – a manager prepared to make him feel special.

But it does look like Liverpool need a new quick striker, to play off Crouch when Rafa is looking for pace on the break, given Morientes will never offer that. Sinama-Pongolle has a lot of potential, but it's not yet clear whether he quite has what it takes to be a regular, although still has plenty to offer to the squad. While far from quick, it will also be interesting to see if Neil Mellor's loan is to prove his fitness and get some experience, or a precursor to a sale.

The revelation by Sven that Michael Owen is unhappy at Newcastle was no surprise. In the summer I felt Rafa was correct to go for Crouch, because of the style of play and 4-5-1 system, and because Crouch is the kind of player we needed to hold the attack together. But now we play two strikers on at least some occasions (although when it's Morientes, he drops deeper), bringing Owen back has to be considered. I'd love to know what's in Mickey's contract.

With only a week left to the transfer window, it looks like Cissé will have four more months to prove himself at Liverpool, or for everyone to call it quits. I haven't given up hope, but I'm also no longer holding my breath.

by **Mark 23** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:10 pm

I seen the article Ian Rush done in the Echo about Bellamy, but he brings off the pitch problems with him, he whacked a girl in a nightclub recently, rumoured, but at least she wasn't pregnant (eh Cisse). I think if anyone can handle him it will be Rafa, and also the squad we have doesn't seem to tolerate wannabes, apparently somebody was giving 'verbal abuse' (you're :censored:

, moaning

, not fit to worth the shirt) to Cisse when the Liverpool Squad were in Liverpool Airport, and somebody said to Carragher "Isn't anybody going to say anything", to which replied "No, there probably right"

by **anti-hero** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:19 pm

Mark 23 wrote:I seen the article Ian Rush done in the Echo about Bellamy, but he brings off the pitch problems with him, he whacked a girl in a nightclub recently, rumoured, but at least she wasn't pregnant (eh Cisse). I think if anyone can handle him it will be Rafa, and also the squad we have doesn't seem to tolerate wannabes, apparently somebody was giving 'verbal abuse' (you're , moaning , not fit to worth the shirt) to Cisse when the Liverpool Squad were in Liverpool Airport, and somebody said to Carragher "Isn't anybody going to say anything", to which replied "No, there probably right"

When was that?

by **The Ace1983** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:11 pm

Bellamy isn't a bad choice. I don't think he'd leave Sparky but if he would, it's worth a shout.

by **davo_LFC** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:08 pm

Apparently theres supposed to be a clause in his contract allowing him to go for six million, aldo on radio city said that had been rumoured in the tabloids. I personally think bellamy would be a good signing, hes quick, keeps defenders on the back foot and hes always a threat...carra and sami had him off today like

but at 6mil i would take him for sure

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