Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ace Ventura** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:08 pm

dawson99 wrote:maybe john craig just doesnt know what hes on about. im not sure how detrimental he is to the team. hes played in the last 3 games and we have scored 15 goals. id hate to see how many wed score without him there then!!!

how detrimental can smoenoe be when we are playing as well as we are. ok, he didnt pass to kewell, but hes been crossing the ball. and ehs a striker, he lives to score goals!! FFS

I disagree with you mate, Cisse might of played in the win at Newcastle, but i think we could of won by 5 or 6 with a better less selfish right sided player.
Most attacks break down when they reach him, i know he is being played out of position, and thats not his fault, but for a professional footballer his touch and ability to basically pass and move is shocking.
Do you think if you put him in Arsenals side with the free flowing football....that he could cope ?
Balls into feet, control and move, he cant do it...and thats basic.

by **stapo1000** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:09 pm

Cisse is one player i'd be happy to take 8million for. Cisse may never have set the world alight for us but his pace always caused problems for opposition defences. But if we are to offload him we have to replace him with a striker who has got pace. As long as we can replace him with a player like defoe, torres, bent... who has that pace in his locker then we should definitely offload him.

by **dawson99** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
dawson99 wrote:maybe john craig just doesnt know what hes on about. im not sure how detrimental he is to the team. hes played in the last 3 games and we have scored 15 goals. id hate to see how many wed score without him there then!!!

how detrimental can smoenoe be when we are playing as well as we are. ok, he didnt pass to kewell, but hes been crossing the ball. and ehs a striker, he lives to score goals!! FFS

I disagree with you mate, Cisse might of played in the win at Newcastle, but i think we could of won by 5 or 6 with a better less selfish right sided player.
Most attacks break down when they reach him, i know he is being played out of position, and thats not his fault, but for a professional footballer his touch and ability to basically pass and move is shocking.
Do you think if you put him in Arsenals side with the free flowing football....that he could cope ?
Balls into feet, control and move, he cant do it...and thats basic.

his touch ahs not actually been that bad lately. thats something that someone said 6 months ago and all aprrots repeat it. and yes, he is out of position.

in all honesty id rather have defoe as well, but what if defoe was being playde as aright wniger? exactly!!!

all im saying is that hes not as bad as some morons on here are saying and itas just a disgraceful reaction by some so called liverpool fans

by **115-1073096938** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:19 pm

dawson99 wrote:
john craig wrote:Papoose...

Very longwinded, and quite frankly garbage.

Any 'true' supporter as you call them knows that Cisse's presence in the squad is detrimental to the team. He thinks only of himself which is mirrored in his body language on the pitch, his frequent sulks and his unparallelled selfishness in his play.

Anyone who knows anything about the game or who has played it to any sort of level can tell you that Cisse is a poor footballer. Poor football brain, poor composure (which is not purely due to confidence despite what you say) and poor technique. He's a good athlete who can kick the ball hard (albeit straight at the keeper or over the bar), that's it.

Maybe there's a reason why you read so many 'Cisse-bashing posts' as you call them - it's because they're correct.

Just about every regular poster on this forum agrees Cisse will never make it at this club, are we all wrong? Just because one poster takes a shine to the lad and writes a thesis explaining why his opinion is correct doesn't make the rest of us wrong.

im gonna disagree with u there. He may not work ni this team but that does not make him bad footballer. He was class in france, and i know that is not the same level but look at dean ashton in the lower league, he was class there and thats about the same as france. When cisse leaves, and i know he will, hes gonna score a lot of goals for the right team.

his presence is detrimental to the team? yeah it really looked that way when stevie g ran right up to im to hug the guy.
It looks like it when u hear people talk about him and the way they aer with him on the pitch. Hes got passion, he hasnt been given chances and he shouldnt be on the right wing.

Ade Akinbiyi would be a better comparrison.

The fact is, the defenders in the lower leagues all over the world aren't as good as in the premier league and pace is the hardest thing to defend against. If someones very quick and you aren't its very difficult to defend against it. Thats why Sissy was successfull in france. Thats why Akinbiyi is successfull in division one.

Neither are premiership class, neither ever will be. Dawson, its no about opinion mate. Its as simple as saying Sissy is :censored:

and will never be good enough. Anyone who says other than that mate is just wrong. Its nothing to do with opinion, its fact.

by **Ace Ventura** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:21 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
dawson99 wrote:maybe john craig just doesnt know what hes on about. im not sure how detrimental he is to the team. hes played in the last 3 games and we have scored 15 goals. id hate to see how many wed score without him there then!!!

how detrimental can smoenoe be when we are playing as well as we are. ok, he didnt pass to kewell, but hes been crossing the ball. and ehs a striker, he lives to score goals!! FFS

I disagree with you mate, Cisse might of played in the win at Newcastle, but i think we could of won by 5 or 6 with a better less selfish right sided player.
Most attacks break down when they reach him, i know he is being played out of position, and thats not his fault, but for a professional footballer his touch and ability to basically pass and move is shocking.
Do you think if you put him in Arsenals side with the free flowing football....that he could cope ?
Balls into feet, control and move, he cant do it...and thats basic.

his touch ahs not actually been that bad lately. thats something that someone said 6 months ago and all aprrots repeat it. and yes, he is out of position.

in all honesty id rather have defoe as well, but what if defoe was being playde as aright wniger? exactly!!!

all im saying is that hes not as bad as some morons on here are saying and itas just a disgraceful reaction by some so called liverpool fans

Mate if his touch isn't bad, then its his concentration because if you play a ball into Cisse more times than not it gets away from him.
I am not saying that cos someone else has said it, i am saying it because thats what i witness every time he pulls on the red shirt.
Its annoying me that he is being played out of position as well, but wide right he should actually get a bit more time and space to control the ball and lay it off.
I think his crossing is decent, he knocks in a quality ball 1 in 3 attempts...which isn't bad.
But i would hate to see him in 5 a side or something where there is little room, where you need instant control, and to pass and move to work an opening.
My guess is, he would shoot every time he got the ball, to avoid getting it under proper control and using it most effectively.

by **puroresu** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:21 pm

Rafa just doesnt back Cisse and I think he knows that:

"If you want the player to play better and score goals and build his confidence, he needs to be playing games.

"Look at Crouch. When people were talking about him saying he could not score goals, we kept him in the team playing games and then he scored goals. Now it is the same with Morientes."

"But if you want to see your strikers scoring goals you cannot leave them out. "If you want to support one player then you need to keep him on the pitch"

Rafa is right in what here just he hasnt done the same with Cisse.

by **dawson99** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:24 pm

we'll never agree on this, which is what is so good about football. but im almost hoping we sell him to spurs now and he gets a hat trick against us just to shut some of u up!

by **115-1073096938** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:24 pm

dawson99 wrote:maybe john craig just doesnt know what hes on about. im not sure how detrimental he is to the team. hes played in the last 3 games and we have scored 15 goals. id hate to see how many wed score without him there then!!!

how detrimental can smoenoe be when we are playing as well as we are. ok, he didnt pass to kewell, but hes been crossing the ball. and ehs a striker, he lives to score goals!! FFS

Thats simply garbage. We were 5-0 or 6-0 up when he came on the other day.

His goal shown his lack of ability. He'd have done that regardless of the score and 99 times out of a hundred it would either go for a corner or trickle into the keepers hands.

Dawson, strikers aren't there to score goals. The team is there to score goals. It DOES NOT matter where the goals come from.

by **Ace Ventura** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:25 pm

puroresu wrote:Rafa just doesnt back Cisse and I think he knows that:

"If you want the player to play better and score goals and build his confidence, he needs to be playing games.

"Look at Crouch. When people were talking about him saying he could not score goals, we kept him in the team playing games and then he scored goals. Now it is the same with Morientes."

"But if you want to see your strikers scoring goals you cannot leave them out. "If you want to support one player then you need to keep him on the pitch"

Rafa is right in what here just he hasnt done the same with Cisse.

This debate isn't about scoring goals really, although obviously for a striker thats a must.
Cisse would probably score his fair share if he was played in the centre regulary.
But the team would suffer, unless the ball was played in behind the defence for him to run on to, the ball would come back, he cannot hold it up and bring the midfield in to play.
Thats Rafa's preferred tactic, and a major reason as to why Cisse being played on the right when he is selected at all.

by **115-1073096938** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:27 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
dawson99 wrote:maybe john craig just doesnt know what hes on about. im not sure how detrimental he is to the team. hes played in the last 3 games and we have scored 15 goals. id hate to see how many wed score without him there then!!!

how detrimental can smoenoe be when we are playing as well as we are. ok, he didnt pass to kewell, but hes been crossing the ball. and ehs a striker, he lives to score goals!! FFS

I disagree with you mate, Cisse might of played in the win at Newcastle, but i think we could of won by 5 or 6 with a better less selfish right sided player.
Most attacks break down when they reach him, i know he is being played out of position, and thats not his fault, but for a professional footballer his touch and ability to basically pass and move is shocking.
Do you think if you put him in Arsenals side with the free flowing football....that he could cope ?
Balls into feet, control and move, he cant do it...and thats basic.

his touch ahs not actually been that bad lately. thats something that someone said 6 months ago and all aprrots repeat it. and yes, he is out of position.

in all honesty id rather have defoe as well, but what if defoe was being playde as aright wniger? exactly!!!

all im saying is that hes not as bad as some morons on here are saying and itas just a disgraceful reaction by some so called liverpool fans

Defoe playing at centre half could still control a football.

It doesn't matter where you play. If you can't see how :censored:

Sissy is you're watching the wrong sport.

by **dawson99** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:29 pm

yet has anyone seen crouches first touch for the first two months of the year? it was awful. and i saw cisse with some great first touches.
Its just funny how every club in the world seemed to want him. We got him and suddenly stu and john craig know more about talent spotting than proffessionals who have been doing it there entire lives.

by **puroresu** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:36 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
john craig wrote:Papoose...

Very longwinded, and quite frankly garbage.

Any 'true' supporter as you call them knows that Cisse's presence in the squad is detrimental to the team. He thinks only of himself which is mirrored in his body language on the pitch, his frequent sulks and his unparallelled selfishness in his play.

Anyone who knows anything about the game or who has played it to any sort of level can tell you that Cisse is a poor footballer. Poor football brain, poor composure (which is not purely due to confidence despite what you say) and poor technique. He's a good athlete who can kick the ball hard (albeit straight at the keeper or over the bar), that's it.

Maybe there's a reason why you read so many 'Cisse-bashing posts' as you call them - it's because they're correct.

Just about every regular poster on this forum agrees Cisse will never make it at this club, are we all wrong? Just because one poster takes a shine to the lad and writes a thesis explaining why his opinion is correct doesn't make the rest of us wrong.

im gonna disagree with u there. He may not work ni this team but that does not make him bad footballer. He was class in france, and i know that is not the same level but look at dean ashton in the lower league, he was class there and thats about the same as france. When cisse leaves, and i know he will, hes gonna score a lot of goals for the right team.

his presence is detrimental to the team? yeah it really looked that way when stevie g ran right up to im to hug the guy.
It looks like it when u hear people talk about him and the way they aer with him on the pitch. Hes got passion, he hasnt been given chances and he shouldnt be on the right wing.

Ade Akinbiyi would be a better comparrison.

The fact is, the defenders in the lower leagues all over the world aren't as good as in the premier league and pace is the hardest thing to defend against. If someones very quick and you aren't its very difficult to defend against it. Thats why Sissy was successfull in france. Thats why Akinbiyi is successfull in division one.

Neither are premiership class, neither ever will be. Dawson, its no about opinion mate. Its as simple as saying Sissy is and will never be good enough. Anyone who says other than that mate is just wrong. Its nothing to do with opinion, its fact.

Thats BS and just a myth. if thats the case why does Lique 1 have The lowest goals per game ration of any big Euro league.

Below you will find some strikers wit pace who commanded big fees. Now have all of them scored bucket loads in France? I think not!!!

Wiltord:

93-94 Rennes 8 Goals, 26 Games
94-95 Rennes 5 Goals, 25 Games
95-96 Rennes 15 Goals, 37 Games
96-97 Rennes 3 Goals, 35 Games
97-98 Bordeaux 11 Goals, 34 Games
98-99 Bordeaux 22 Goals, 33 Games
99-00 Bordeaux 13 Goals, 32 Games

As you can see he didnt score that many goals per season in France but still commanded a huge fee.

Louis Saha

97-98 Metz 1 Goals, 21 Games
98-99 Newcastle United 1 Goals, 11 Games
99-00 Metz 4 Goals, 23 Games
00-01 Fulham 27 Goals, 43 Games
01-02 Fulham 8 Goals, 36 Games
02-03 Fulham 5 Goals, 17 Games
03-04(jan) Fulham 13 Goals, 20 Games

Steve Marlet:

92-93 Red Star 93 5 Goals, 31 Games
93-94 Red Star 93 9 Goals, 40 Games
94-95 Red Star 93 11 Goals, 24 Games
95-96 Red Star 93 16 Goals, 35 Games
96-97 Auxerre 3 Goals, 24 Games
97-98 Auxerre 6 Goals, 18 Games
98-99 Auxerre 7 Goals, 32 Games
99-00 Auxerre 9 Goals, 33 Games
00-01 Lyon 12 Goals, 31 Games
03-04 Marseille 9 Goals, 23 Games
04-05 Marseille 7 Goals, 31 Games

Again if you look at the facts you see Marlet was never prolific but again commanded a huge fee.

Diouf:

99-00 Rennes 1 Goals, 28 Games
00-01 Lens 8 Goals, 28 Games
01-02 Lens 10 Goals, 26 Games

Again if you look at the facts you see Marlet was never prolific but again commanded a huge fee.

Drogba

99-00 Le Mans 7 Goals, 30 Games
01-02(jan) Le Mans 5 Goals, 21 Games
01-02 Guingamp 3 Goals, 11 Games
02-03 Guingamp 17 Goals, 34 Games
03-04 Marseille 18 Goals, 35 Games

Now Drogba did have 2 good seasons where he scored goals but never got to 20.

04-05 Chelsea 10 Goals, 26 Games

Cisse

00-01 Auxerre 8 Goals, 25 Games
01-02 Auxerre 22 Goals, 29 Games
02-03 Auxerre 14 Goals, 33 Games
03-04 Auxerre 26 Goals, 38 Games

Now you can see here that Cisse unlike the others I have mentioned has been prolific in France and actually did get 20 goals.

Henry

94-95 Monaco 3 Goals, 8 Games
95-96 Monaco 3 Goals, 18 Games
96-97 Monaco 9 Goals, 36 Games
97-98 Monaco 4 Goals, 30 Games
98-99(déc) Monaco 1 Goals, 13 Games

99-00 Arsenal 17 Goals, 31 Games
00-01 Arsenal 17 Goals, 35 Games
01-02 Arsenal 24 Goals, 33 Games
02-03 Arsenal 24 Goals, 37 Games
03-04 Arsenal 30 Goals, 37 Games
04-05 Arsenal 25 Goals, 32 Games
05-06 Arsenal 19 Goals, 24 Games

Now from here u can see Henry wasnt prolific in France at all (played as a winger at Juve not Monaco however showed huge potential and now look!!!)

Trezegeut

97-98 Monaco 18 Goals, 27 Games
98-99 Monaco 12 Goals, 27 Games
99-00 Monaco 22 Goals, 30 Games

00-01 Juventus 14 Goals, 25 Games
01-02 Juventus 24 Goals, 34 Games
02-03 Juventus 9 Goals, 17 Games
03-04 Juventus 16 Goals, 25 Games
04-05 Juventus 9 Goals, 18 Games
05-06 Juventus 20 Goals, 26 Games

This seasons top scorer list in Lique 1

1 Alexander Frei (SUI) Rennes 16
2 Araujo Ilan (BRA) Sochaux 12
- Mickaël Pagis (FRA) Strasbourg 12
- Pedro Pauleta (POR) Paris-SG 12
5 Pascal Feindouno (GUI) Saint-Etienne 11
- P. Juninho (BRA) Lyon 11
- Matt Moussilou (FRA) Lille 11
8 Mohammed Kallon (SLE) Monaco 10
- Waldir Lucas Pereira (BRA) Ajaccio 10
- Sébastien Mazure (FRA) Caen 10
- Daniel Moreira (FRA) Toulouse 10
- Frédéric Piquionne (FRA) Saint-Etienne 10
- Marama Vahirua (FRA) Nice 10
14 Mwaruwari Benjani (ZIM) Auxerre 9
- Philippe Brunel (FRA) Lille 9
- Marouane Chamakh (MAR) Bordeaux 9
- Olivier Monterrubio (FRA) Rennes 9
- Mamadou Niang (SEN) Strasbourg 9
19 Laurent Batlles (FRA) Marseille 8

I dont see anyone with 20 goals in this supposed easy league.

by **puroresu** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:38 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
puroresu wrote:Rafa just doesnt back Cisse and I think he knows that:

"If you want the player to play better and score goals and build his confidence, he needs to be playing games.

"Look at Crouch. When people were talking about him saying he could not score goals, we kept him in the team playing games and then he scored goals. Now it is the same with Morientes."

"But if you want to see your strikers scoring goals you cannot leave them out. "If you want to support one player then you need to keep him on the pitch"

Rafa is right in what here just he hasnt done the same with Cisse.

This debate isn't about scoring goals really, although obviously for a striker thats a must.
Cisse would probably score his fair share if he was played in the centre regulary.
But the team would suffer, unless the ball was played in behind the defence for him to run on to, the ball would come back, he cannot hold it up and bring the midfield in to play.
Thats Rafa's preferred tactic, and a major reason as to why Cisse being played on the right when he is selected at all.

Thats fine and if Rafa doesnt believe Cisse will fit into the system then so be it. My argument is Cisse hasnt really played enough games in a row to be judged as a failure.

by **stmichael** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:45 pm

It doesn't help that he's our record signing and so far failed to live up to those expectations. A bit like the Heskey effect except that Heskey did have one good season before he showed himself to be a far more limited (to me, useless) player than Cisse is.

I don't hate Cisse. I just wish he'd be the type of player to pay attention to his own game and improve. That is why i like Murphy, Carragher, Finnan, Gerrard etc., even Biscan. All players who look improve on their own abilities. Cisse just doesn't look like he would bother in that direction.

I do hope he scores when he's on and if he puts it in and we win the game, he's done his job in my view. Still we all know in the back of our heads that 14m could have got us someone (if not two players) who offer far far more to the team.

(okay i'll admit it. i'm one of those who always wished we'd signed Anelka. I still do.)

by **Ace Ventura** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:30 pm

puroresu wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
puroresu wrote:Rafa just doesnt back Cisse and I think he knows that:

"If you want the player to play better and score goals and build his confidence, he needs to be playing games.

"Look at Crouch. When people were talking about him saying he could not score goals, we kept him in the team playing games and then he scored goals. Now it is the same with Morientes."

"But if you want to see your strikers scoring goals you cannot leave them out. "If you want to support one player then you need to keep him on the pitch"

Rafa is right in what here just he hasnt done the same with Cisse.

This debate isn't about scoring goals really, although obviously for a striker thats a must.
Cisse would probably score his fair share if he was played in the centre regulary.
But the team would suffer, unless the ball was played in behind the defence for him to run on to, the ball would come back, he cannot hold it up and bring the midfield in to play.
Thats Rafa's preferred tactic, and a major reason as to why Cisse being played on the right when he is selected at all.

Thats fine and if Rafa doesnt believe Cisse will fit into the system then so be it. My argument is Cisse hasnt really played enough games in a row to be judged as a failure.

I didnt call Cisse a failure, he has been unlucky in the fact that he signed for one manager with a style of play that would of suited him, then the manager gets sacked before the move takes place.
Cisse is left being our record signing but one that the manager ultimately doesnt want, and tbh neither do i.
I am not blaming him totally for not cementing his place in the team (although he could of done more to change the situation)
If the manager doesnt think he is suited to the style of play he wants the team to use then there is nothing down for him.
puroresu, i take it you are French ? your support for him is blind imo.
We are looking at this from the point of view of what will benefit LFC more, Cisse being played in the centre with a total change in our system and style of play.
Or Rafa's preferred style of a striker that holds the ball up for the midfield to come and support, posession football with good movement, 1 and 2 touch passing.
There is no way in the world that Cisse can play that way, its not his fault imo, its just not his game, and never will be.
he is not unselfish enough to adapt his game to play in this system, that is obvious by the lack of improvement in the areas i have been talking about.

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