Liverpool FC Forum

by **dawson99** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:19 am

Heya, here are some official stats about how the strikers are doing, and it shows something which we all know

Appearences Minsonpitch Goals MinsPerGoal
Crouch 38 2609 7 372.7
Mori 36 2404 6 400.7
Fowler 7 377 0 0
Cisse 43 2220 12 185.0

Ok, so stats can proove anything you want, 75.4% of people know that, but why is this obviosu stat not available to rafa? Ok so some of the games cisse played in were not of the caliber of the otehrs but he was hitting the back of the net.

Ok so crouch offers a lot more to the game than cisse but cisse is finding the back of the net.

Everyone on here is saying that cisse is not good enough even for championship football but when he is a striker (and a couple of times frmo the wing) he is hitting the back fo the net.

Even James beattie has a better record than any of our strikers, its gettnig really bad. Maybe this didnt need a new thread, and i dontexpect any replies but its just some facts to look at before everyone starts yelling abuse at cisse.

It has to be something personal going on between him and the gaffer as on the pitch he was doing the business.

by **Paul C** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:39 pm

I don't really agree with that Dawson, Crouch and Nando never have been prolific goal scorers whereever they've played as their more target men thus not scoring that much.

by **jambodale** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:42 pm

join my xpert 11 league and play against people all over britain

League Code: 54129

There are currently 6 more applications till we can start a league.

You have 5 days to do this, do it now!

The following clubs have been accepted into the league.

Family Guy - Bistokid
Untouchables - Heartski
Jambolads Lithuania - Jambolad

by **dawson99** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:48 pm

Paul C wrote:I don't really agree with that Dawson, Crouch and Nando never have been prolific goal scorers whereever they've played as their more target men thus not scoring that much.

if that is the case then why does rafa play them together? mi just trying to look at it from a stats point of view

by **bigmick** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:14 pm

It's going to be really interesting to see who Rafa goes with today (maybe somebody already knows, Lynds?).
Morientes has been bad all season but I thought he plumbed new depths against Benfica in midweek. He truly was absolutely awful and despite Rafa's determination to make it work, he must now know that the six million quid we shelled out was a huge mistake. I mentioned on another thread the fact that Madrid effectively got Owen for Morientes, Nunez and about 1.5 million which must surely represent the deal of the century. Please Rafa spare us the sight of Morientes milk-floating around the pitch today. I think he will.
That leaves Crouch out of the midweek starters. His form this last month or so has taken a dip as the goals have dried up. I would rest him but my suspicion is that Rafa won't, Crouch will probably play.
Fowler just needs a goal or at least one that counts. However, when he plays with one of the other two, his own lack of pace is magnified and we look pedestrian. However, I think Rafa will start him alongside Crouch and furthermore I think he will score.
Cisse will have to wait to start uptop I'm afraid. I think he will be on the bench with Kromkamp right-side.

If it was me, I'd start with Cisse and Fowler uptop. I've suspected for a while that this would work, and by virtue of the fact that its the only combo we haven't tried it's got to be worth a go.
Before anybody gets carried away about the Frenchman however, I would add that Cisse is rubbish in my opinion but he certainly offers more than Morientes. He is due a chance. He has paid a heavy price indeed for missing a sitter at Old trafford.

by **tubby** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:01 pm

Terry Venables believes Steven Gerrard's hopes of Liverpool signing Michael Owen will be dashed because he can't see Newcastle United chairman Freddy Shepherd allowing the player to leave in the summer.

Instead of Owen, the former England boss believes Jermaine Defoe is the player that Rafael Benitez should be making attempts to sign.

There's no advertising in the KopTalk Gold Club!
Venables said: "Michael Owen will not leave Newcastle this summer so Rafa Benitez should make it a priority to get the next best thing - Jermain Defoe.

"Liverpool must sign a goal-scorer if they are to challenge Chelsea. If they do not, there is a very real danger the club will stand still and, in football, that means you go backwards as rivals improve.

"Who knows what will happen at Manchester United in the summer? A young Arsenal team will surely benefit from this season's experiences and get better results in the league next time, while Tottenham will continue to progress under Martin Jol.

"But if Benitez does not address the problem with his strikers, Liverpool - far from catching Chelsea - could struggle to hold on to what they have now.

"Steven Gerrard's comments about wishing Owen would re-join are interesting.

"I am sure a number of people at the club are regretting not making a move for him last summer. I think the directors were more willing to sign him than the coach. Maybe Benitez thought he was injury-prone.

"Unfortunately, Liverpool missed the boat. Owen would definitely have returned to Anfield instead of signing for Newcastle but now that he has arrived on Tyneside, I can't see any way their chairman Freddy Shepherd would let him go.

"Having spent much of the season injured, I would hope Owen feels he owes his new employers something, too.

"Certainly, the next manager of Newcastle will want assurancies that Owen is a part of the future at the club.

There's no advertising in the KopTalk Gold Club!
"I cannot see Shepherd getting the best man for the job if he starts by revealing Owen will be off at the end of the season.

"Defoe is exactly what Liverpool lack: a striker who gets one chance and buries it.

"Too many of Liverpool's strikers are nearly men - Peter Crouch, Fernando Morientes and Djibril Cisse.

"I was surprised Robbie Fowler was kept out of the Benfica game until late because, even at this stage in his career, I would fancy him to score if the ball breaks in the box. He might not out-run defenders but his nose for goal will not, have changed.

"Crouch is a very good player but he is not top-drawer. At the highest level, he is a sub at best.

"It is said Crouch's height unsettles foreign defenders and I agree. But when they play against him from the start, they soon realise he is not at the highest level and grow comfortable, while Crouch loses his impact.

"Like many of Liverpool's strikers, Crouch does not exude the vibe that says he thinks he is going to score. Yet Defoe has that touch of arrogance, even when he's down in the dumps - as he must be right now."

----------------------------------------------------

Tel dos make a point. Although im sure most ofus would love Owen back Defoe is one that none of us would turn our noses up at. Hes very fast indeed and can run past players with great strengh, which is something right now none of our strikers can do

by **RAFABENITEZ** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:13 pm

dawson99 wrote:Heya, here are some official stats about how the strikers are doing, and it shows something which we all know

Appearences Minsonpitch Goals MinsPerGoal
Crouch 38 2609 7 372.7
Mori 36 2404 6 400.7
Fowler 7 377 0 0
Cisse 43 2220 12 185.0

Ok, so stats can proove anything you want, 75.4% of people know that, but why is this obviosu stat not available to rafa? Ok so some of the games cisse played in were not of the caliber of the otehrs but he was hitting the back of the net.

Ok so crouch offers a lot more to the game than cisse but cisse is finding the back of the net.

Everyone on here is saying that cisse is not good enough even for championship football but when he is a striker (and a couple of times frmo the wing) he is hitting the back fo the net.

Even James beattie has a better record than any of our strikers, its gettnig really bad. Maybe this didnt need a new thread, and i dontexpect any replies but its just some facts to look at before everyone starts yelling abuse at cisse.

It has to be something personal going on between him and the gaffer as on the pitch he was doing the business.

So Cisse the one who everyone hates has a goal every 185 mins, nearly one in two games? AND he is played wide right alot, and doesnt play every week so cannot get sharpness? so it wouldnt be unfair to suggest if he played say 38 EPL games he would get 18 goals, add the sharpness factor and playing through the centre and it could be maybe 20 - 22?

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:20 pm

RAFABENITEZ wrote:
dawson99 wrote:Heya, here are some official stats about how the strikers are doing, and it shows something which we all know

Appearences Minsonpitch Goals MinsPerGoal
Crouch 38 2609 7 372.7
Mori 36 2404 6 400.7
Fowler 7 377 0 0
Cisse 43 2220 12 185.0

Ok, so stats can proove anything you want, 75.4% of people know that, but why is this obviosu stat not available to rafa? Ok so some of the games cisse played in were not of the caliber of the otehrs but he was hitting the back of the net.

Ok so crouch offers a lot more to the game than cisse but cisse is finding the back of the net.

Everyone on here is saying that cisse is not good enough even for championship football but when he is a striker (and a couple of times frmo the wing) he is hitting the back fo the net.

Even James beattie has a better record than any of our strikers, its gettnig really bad. Maybe this didnt need a new thread, and i dontexpect any replies but its just some facts to look at before everyone starts yelling abuse at cisse.

It has to be something personal going on between him and the gaffer as on the pitch he was doing the business.

So Cisse the one who everyone hates has a goal every 185 mins, nearly one in two games? AND he is played wide right alot, and doesnt play every week so cannot get sharpness? so it wouldnt be unfair to suggest if he played say 38 EPL games he would get 18 goals, add the sharpness factor and playing through the centre and it could be maybe 20 - 22?

Im sure if Cisse played 38 games against teams like TNS everyweek he would score a hatful.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:50 pm

I don’t think anyone will deny that Cisse offers the biggest goal threat from Crouch, Morientes and himself. I think the best way to look at it though is through the league, after all, that is the most important thing and where we will be playing most of our games.

Premier League figures:

Crouch Morientes Cisse

Minutes 1629 1399 1234

Goals 3 3 4

Assists 2 2 0

Minutes per goal 543 466 308

So Cisse is the biggest goal threat, no one will deny that in my opinion. The stats show that he hasn’t set up a goal yet, and despite all the arguments about Crouch being a threat and sets up goals he has only directly assisted 2 goals, although he has been involved in the build up to many more. Note that Crouch and Morientes have scored and directly assisted the same amount of goals yet Morientes has played less.

I’ve said it before and I will say it again, being a striker is a lot more than scoring goals, scoring goals is a big part, but there is much more too it. Otherwise players like Robbie Keane and Earnshaw would be playing at Man Utd and Chelsea, but instead their careers have steadily declined despite them scoring goals everywhere they have gone.

Cisse lacks some of the basic qualities you would expect from a Premiership player let alone a player who plays for Liverpool, his touch is inconsistent, his finishing is rash, his off the ball work is non existent at times, he lacks any sort of footballing brain, his movement is basic and predictable, etc. The fact is that he is not good enough to play for LFC. The fact is that none out strikers are first team top 4 club strikers.

For what its worth I would give Cisse a few starts here and there upfront. Needs are must at the moment and we need some goals from our strikers and he probably has the best chance out of the lot (except maybe Fowler). Also I don’t want him to become completely disillusioned and think the club and supporters are against him. And if things continue the way they are then we are going have trouble selling him in the summer (unless a deal has already been agreed with a club). I say give him some starts upfront, let him score a few goals and then sell him in the summer.

by **redmikey** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:08 pm

you could use cissie french league stats to bump the price up.

it worked on us! a swap deal for owen would be good buisness, losing cissie for 4 million would be a scandle

by **dawson99** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:18 pm

well basically if we look just as stats he puts the ball in the back of the onion bag. its that smiple down at grass roots level

by **TheoRacle** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:24 am

Ok -it was a slow day on Friday so I got Excel fired up again....

I've been arguing for a while that our Strike force has been hampered by excellent goal keeping and a fair share of bad luck (as well as being played out of position in Cisse's case) rather than purely a lack of skill and commitment. I wondered if the stats that Dawson highlighted could be expanded upon to see if anything becoimes clearer.

We'll I'm sure every one will be please to hear that Robbie Fowler is officially (according to me!) the best striker in the league! I raided ESPN's stats to get the low down on 10 strikers that are either in direct competion for us playing in the current top isx teams or some names that have have been linked to us a possible transfer targets and compared them to our 4 plus Garcia for good measure.

The complete list in alphabetical order:
Ashton
D.Bent
Cisse
Crespo
Crouch
Defoe
Drogba
Fowler
Garcia
Henry
Keane
Mido
Morientes
Owen
Van Nistelroy
Yakubu

Before this week's fixtures were played, the average stats for all 15 players are as follows. Note that data is taken from all appearances this season incl. internationals and hence vary a little from Dawson's. I felt that these should be included to raise the bar so to spean wrt to the quality of opposition faced by some players.

Avg Mins played: 2210.1
Avg Mins bewteen goals: 187.5
Avg Mins between assists: 913.5
Avg Mins between shots: 37.8
Avg Mins between shots on target: 66.4
Avg Mins between fouls made: 79.4
Avg Mins bewteen fouls drawn: 81.2

So on to the analysis...

Fowler has only played 332 mins so far this season and this contributes to the reason that he heads the rankings as most prolific at one goal every 83mins, a shot every 23.7 mins and a shot on target every 41.5 mins! Surprisingly, Robbie's accuracy ie. the ratio of shots on target to shots made is slightly below average at 57.14%.

2nd in terms of strike rate is a certain Mr Owen. Again assisted(?) by the fact that he has only half the game time of others, MO still delivers a goal every 96 mins. This is partly offset though by the appaling service he gets from the barcodes - only being able to get a shot away every 67.7 mins which is the worst of those compared and his phenomal accuracy which is easily the best at 82.35%. I would love to see how his stats looked if he'd hadn't picked up the foot injury!

3rd place for strike rate goes to Chelsea's Hernan Crespo with a goal every 119.6 mins. His attempts on goal bely perhaps a weakness in Maurinho's tactics as he only manages a shot every 37.3 mins putting him 8th on the list (behind Cisse) even though he is 2nd in the accuracy stakes with2 out of every 3 shots hitting the target. I reckon if he played more often his tendancy to play the ball to a team mate rather than showing a bit of the selfishness a 1st choice striker is permitted to display would result in more goals. I'd be playing him over Drogba any day.

Running down the strike rate rankings from there we have Henry 4th on a goal every 121.75 mins, Van Horseface 5th on 143.95mins, Yakubu 6th (149.5mins), Mido 7th (163.66mins), Cisse (!!!!) 8th (166.2mins), D Bent 9th (170.1mins), Drogba 10th (179.42mins), Keane 11th (184.3mins), Ashton 12th (206mins), Defoe (219.5mins), Garcia 13th (310mins), Crouch 14th (335.75mins) and finally in 15th Nando with 1 goal every 351.6 mins.

The fact that Garcia (though not a striker), Crouch and Morientes occupy the last three postions really sums up our problems at the moment. But before everyone jumps at the chance to condemn them at taentless wastes of space lets look at the other measures of their productivity to date.

The best defence for Nando and Crouch I can offer is their number of attempts on goal. This at least hints at their ability to both get in position for the shot and suggests that at least once or twice they may have been unlucky to get such a poor goal return.

As already mentioned, Fowler tops the list with a shot on goal every 41.5mins, 2nd surprisingly (and particularly relevent to the ***** for Liverpool camp - I'll return to this later) is Ashton with an attempt on target every 45.08mins. 3rd unsurprisingly is Henry with 46.38mins between attempts. Nando and crouch sit 7th and 8th respectively neatly astride the average of 66.4 mins with Nando on 66.51 and Crouch on 68.87. Morientes also gets an A for effort in accuracy achieving 62.71% so at least nearly 2 in 3 of his shots actually on target. Above them are Defoe, Van Horseface and Crespo. Significantly, below them are Yakubu, Bent, Keane, Drogba, Mido, Owen, Cisse and Garcia (the last two of course penalised by not playing a striking role in many games).

I mention that I think this stat is significant because I beleive it suggests that Defoe, Ashton or Bent as LFC transfer targets may need a rethink. Both Defoe and Ashton manage more shots on target than Crouch and Nando yet still place 11th and 12th in the all important minutes between goals stats. Bent incidentally places 9th behind Cisse. The question is, would they (if available) be a significant improvement over what we've got and hence value for money? I think not. What about you?

If we are to assume that Rafa is looking at any of the players in this list as potential targets, I think the stats suggest Yakubu would be the better option. He currently sits 6th in the strike rate stats at a goal every 149.5 mins (4th if you disregard Fowler and Owen's somewhat skewed stats). The relatively poor service from Borough limits him to recording a shot every 48mins (13th) and one on target every 72.73 mins with an accuracy rating of 66.07% making him 3rd overall in that stat. He's got agood tally this season of 18 goals including important strikes against Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea and Man Utd.

But I digress.. back to LFC players...

The enigma that is Djbril Cisse: There's no doubt the guy can score goals, crackers against Anderlecht and Everton plus goals against Hungary, Costa Rica, CSKA Sofia and CSKA Moscow suggest he does know how to finish and be in the right place at the right time at least on occasion. One thing that Rafa candefinately have legitimate complaints about though his Cisses tendancy to shoot wildly. Our Djbril manges a healthy mins bewteen shots stat of 1:35.26 placing him 7th ahead of names such as Crespo, Drogba, Mido and Keane playing for teams performing well in the league. His accuracy lets him down woefully though registering only 42.42% on target or one every 83.11mins. This could be due to his out of position play but I'm really not sure. The only conclusion I canmake is that Cisse is either hot or cold: either his shots are unstoppable or only fit to trouble the fans in row F. :glare:

Unfortunately, the stats do not look good for us in the striking department particularly for Crouch and Morientes. We seem to definatley be right in the mix wrt getting the shot on goal with reasonable accuracy and frequency so perhaps we are just mising that bit of luck? I think the time has come however for Rafa to bite the bullet and put aside whatever it is that's between him and Cisse. Fowler and Cisse have to start from now on with Crouch and Nando on the bench as tactical weapons saved for the last 25 minutes (isn't that why we bought Crouch in the first place?)

by **Alanay** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:35 am

I'm just think about the striker(s) that we need to sign to complement what we already have. How about someone who is very strong and solid upfront, who can crush the defenders, like what Ronaldinho did to Terry (although Terry was a bit out of balance). Someone like Jason Robert?

And another a prolific killer up front which I do not have a name yet.

by **dawson99** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:01 am

TheoRacle wrote:Ok -it was a slow day on Friday so I got Excel fired up again....

I've been arguing for a while that our Strike force has been hampered by excellent goal keeping and a fair share of bad luck (as well as being played out of position in Cisse's case) rather than purely a lack of skill and commitment. I wondered if the stats that Dawson highlighted could be expanded upon to see if anything becoimes clearer.

We'll I'm sure every one will be please to hear that Robbie Fowler is officially (according to me!) the best striker in the league! I raided ESPN's stats to get the low down on 10 strikers that are either in direct competion for us playing in the current top isx teams or some names that have have been linked to us a possible transfer targets and compared them to our 4 plus Garcia for good measure.

The complete list in alphabetical order:
Ashton
D.Bent
Cisse
Crespo
Crouch
Defoe
Drogba
Fowler
Garcia
Henry
Keane
Mido
Morientes
Owen
Van Nistelroy
Yakubu

Before this week's fixtures were played, the average stats for all 15 players are as follows. Note that data is taken from all appearances this season incl. internationals and hence vary a little from Dawson's. I felt that these should be included to raise the bar so to spean wrt to the quality of opposition faced by some players.

Avg Mins played: 2210.1
Avg Mins bewteen goals: 187.5
Avg Mins between assists: 913.5
Avg Mins between shots: 37.8
Avg Mins between shots on target: 66.4
Avg Mins between fouls made: 79.4
Avg Mins bewteen fouls drawn: 81.2

So on to the analysis...

Fowler has only played 332 mins so far this season and this contributes to the reason that he heads the rankings as most prolific at one goal every 83mins, a shot every 23.7 mins and a shot on target every 41.5 mins! Surprisingly, Robbie's accuracy ie. the ratio of shots on target to shots made is slightly below average at 57.14%.

2nd in terms of strike rate is a certain Mr Owen. Again assisted(?) by the fact that he has only half the game time of others, MO still delivers a goal every 96 mins. This is partly offset though by the appaling service he gets from the barcodes - only being able to get a shot away every 67.7 mins which is the worst of those compared and his phenomal accuracy which is easily the best at 82.35%. I would love to see how his stats looked if he'd hadn't picked up the foot injury!

3rd place for strike rate goes to Chelsea's Hernan Crespo with a goal every 119.6 mins. His attempts on goal bely perhaps a weakness in Maurinho's tactics as he only manages a shot every 37.3 mins putting him 8th on the list (behind Cisse) even though he is 2nd in the accuracy stakes with2 out of every 3 shots hitting the target. I reckon if he played more often his tendancy to play the ball to a team mate rather than showing a bit of the selfishness a 1st choice striker is permitted to display would result in more goals. I'd be playing him over Drogba any day.

Running down the strike rate rankings from there we have Henry 4th on a goal every 121.75 mins, Van Horseface 5th on 143.95mins, Yakubu 6th (149.5mins), Mido 7th (163.66mins), Cisse (!!!!) 8th (166.2mins), D Bent 9th (170.1mins), Drogba 10th (179.42mins), Keane 11th (184.3mins), Ashton 12th (206mins), Defoe (219.5mins), Garcia 13th (310mins), Crouch 14th (335.75mins) and finally in 15th Nando with 1 goal every 351.6 mins.

The fact that Garcia (though not a striker), Crouch and Morientes occupy the last three postions really sums up our problems at the moment. But before everyone jumps at the chance to condemn them at taentless wastes of space lets look at the other measures of their productivity to date.

The best defence for Nando and Crouch I can offer is their number of attempts on goal. This at least hints at their ability to both get in position for the shot and suggests that at least once or twice they may have been unlucky to get such a poor goal return.

As already mentioned, Fowler tops the list with a shot on goal every 41.5mins, 2nd surprisingly (and particularly relevent to the ***** for Liverpool camp - I'll return to this later) is Ashton with an attempt on target every 45.08mins. 3rd unsurprisingly is Henry with 46.38mins between attempts. Nando and crouch sit 7th and 8th respectively neatly astride the average of 66.4 mins with Nando on 66.51 and Crouch on 68.87. Morientes also gets an A for effort in accuracy achieving 62.71% so at least nearly 2 in 3 of his shots actually on target. Above them are Defoe, Van Horseface and Crespo. Significantly, below them are Yakubu, Bent, Keane, Drogba, Mido, Owen, Cisse and Garcia (the last two of course penalised by not playing a striking role in many games).

I mention that I think this stat is significant because I beleive it suggests that Defoe, Ashton or Bent as LFC transfer targets may need a rethink. Both Defoe and Ashton manage more shots on target than Crouch and Nando yet still place 11th and 12th in the all important minutes between goals stats. Bent incidentally places 9th behind Cisse. The question is, would they (if available) be a significant improvement over what we've got and hence value for money? I think not. What about you?

If we are to assume that Rafa is looking at any of the players in this list as potential targets, I think the stats suggest Yakubu would be the better option. He currently sits 6th in the strike rate stats at a goal every 149.5 mins (4th if you disregard Fowler and Owen's somewhat skewed stats). The relatively poor service from Borough limits him to recording a shot every 48mins (13th) and one on target every 72.73 mins with an accuracy rating of 66.07% making him 3rd overall in that stat. He's got agood tally this season of 18 goals including important strikes against Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea and Man Utd.

But I digress.. back to LFC players...

The enigma that is Djbril Cisse: There's no doubt the guy can score goals, crackers against Anderlecht and Everton plus goals against Hungary, Costa Rica, CSKA Sofia and CSKA Moscow suggest he does know how to finish and be in the right place at the right time at least on occasion. One thing that Rafa candefinately have legitimate complaints about though his Cisses tendancy to shoot wildly. Our Djbril manges a healthy mins bewteen shots stat of 1:35.26 placing him 7th ahead of names such as Crespo, Drogba, Mido and Keane playing for teams performing well in the league. His accuracy lets him down woefully though registering only 42.42% on target or one every 83.11mins. This could be due to his out of position play but I'm really not sure. The only conclusion I canmake is that Cisse is either hot or cold: either his shots are unstoppable or only fit to trouble the fans in row F.

Unfortunately, the stats do not look good for us in the striking department particularly for Crouch and Morientes. We seem to definatley be right in the mix wrt getting the shot on goal with reasonable accuracy and frequency so perhaps we are just mising that bit of luck? I think the time has come however for Rafa to bite the bullet and put aside whatever it is that's between him and Cisse. Fowler and Cisse have to start from now on with Crouch and Nando on the bench as tactical weapons saved for the last 25 minutes (isn't that why we bought Crouch in the first place?)

thats the stats the dawson can approove of. nice work!!! :bowdown

by **Dalglish** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:07 am

We are clutching at straws claiming if Cisse played CF instead of right midfield he would bag 18-20 a season......

WAKE UP and smell the roses lads......

Henry essentially plays left wing and scores 20 + a season cos he's class

Morientes = Not good enough

Cisse = In ANY position Not good enough

Mark Twain circa 1878 said "There are LIES, Damned LIES and STATISTICS !

Nothing much has changed since 1878

Liverpool FC Forum

Are stats proof? - More drivvle

Who is online