Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:10 pm

Redrider wrote:When you lot have hounded Morientes out of the club. Who will you turn on next ?
Your like a bunch from the Middle Ages, calling plain girls witches and burning them at the stake !!

You are full of sh*t pal.

A couple of turns in the centre circle doesn't justify the fact that at the minute, Mori couldn't score in a Brothel with £200k and a tub of Viagra.

by **Redrider** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:21 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:You are full of sh*t pal.

A couple of turns in the centre circle doesn't justify the fact that at the minute, Mori couldn't score in a Brothel with £200k and a tub of Viagra.

Well that's an intelligent contribution !!
And you wonder why I use the expression Moronic to describe the unworthy criticism !!
:talktothehand

by **johnny b the great** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:25 pm

with Madrid after Rafa, i think booing him was a bad idea. PC was playing better but has Rafa said the only way to help Moro is to keep him on the pitch. It was also unfair of one of the commentators to say that Moro plays becuase he's spanish

by **johnny b the great** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:26 pm

Besides we were wining and i would rather have a fit and rested PC for Benfica, PC has a England match this week.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:36 pm

Redrider wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:You are full of sh*t pal.

A couple of turns in the centre circle doesn't justify the fact that at the minute, Mori couldn't score in a Brothel with £200k and a tub of Viagra.

Well that's an intelligent contribution !!
And you wonder why I use the expression Moronic to describe the unworthy criticism !!

Oh I'm sorry, I just assumed that because I was talking to you (a gimp), I'd have to use leymans terms so as not to confuse you.

Here it is again, just for you:

Morientes, the Spanish striker currently residing in Liverpool, is not adept at placing the globe-shaped "Football" into the area marked by a painted metal framework known as the "Goal", when placed under the circumstantial effects of Premiership competition.

A mere handful of skillful rotations whilst in control of the afore-mentioned "football", are scant consolation to the "Fanatics", or "followers" of the team known both Nationally, and Internationally, as "Liverpool F.C".

Is that better for you, nerd-boy?

by **Redrider** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:37 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Redrider wrote:When you lot have hounded Morientes out of the club. Who will you turn on next ?
Your like a bunch from the Middle Ages, calling plain girls witches and burning them at the stake !!

erm, no. personally my thing is i dont know how mori gets all these chances and cisse doesnt. Rafa is class, we aknow it, but theres something not working or wed be scoring more goals, its that simple

I can't answer that because it is Rafa's call. I also have nothing against Ciise.
All I can think is that Morientes fits Rafa's priorities;
Works harder, Brings more people into the game, Tackles back more etc.
Cynically speaking, Morientes is Spanish and was a Rafa purchase. Ciise is French and was a Ged choice.
I dont know and do not care to mark one off against the other.

However, maybe the reason why none of current crop are scoring is down to the style of play.
Good though the mid-field are, maybe there are too many lateral possession balls and maybe there is not enough incisiveness to release the forwards quickly.
The forwards are maybe being asked to play deep and help control the mid-field.
Maybe the fan's are being too critical, expecting too much and knocking the forwards confidence. All three strikers have had more than their share of nay-sayers at various times.
Crouch only escaped because the nation got onto him and he needed saving.
Perhaps it is not down to individual after all,

by **Ciggy** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:04 pm

Redrider wrote:When you lot have hounded Morientes out of the club. Who will you turn on next ?
Your like a bunch from the Middle Ages, calling plain girls witches and burning them at the stake !!

You used to be that Pycho Kindaconfused alter ego fella, you havent been on here for months you got banned twice and have the cheek to call people morons on here, look no further than yerself.

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:10 pm

Redrider wrote:However, maybe the reason why none of current crop are scoring is down to the style of play.

Sorry I just can't buy this theory at all. "Style of play"? Let's just say we were to base out whole attack aroung the figure of Fernando Morientes. What "style of play" does anybody think we'd need to enable him to score regularly?

For starters, you can't play him in with a through ball because a) he generally sits too deep and even when he doesn't, he doesn't really play off the shoulder of the defender. His momentum is generally towards the man with the ball rather than spinning and going away from him which you need to play him into a scoring opportunity. And b) in the unlikely event he did show and spin, or open the door for the pass by getting side on and stepping back a few yards he hasn't got the pace and strength to hold defenders off and get a shot away.
He has got a decent hit with both feet. My own bet is this is how he will break his scoring abstinance with a shot from outside the area. He will have to get the opening to shoot however with either a piece of skill to make room (which he is well capable of) or from a helpful ricochet. Unfortunately he doesn't show off the main target (Crouch usually) with any conviction and pace which almost rules out the possibility of the ball getting laid back into his path.
The third option is from a cross into the area. Contrary to what many people on here believe, I don't think he attacks the ball with enough aggression and pace to score regularly from headers. I think he's probably scored one or two headers in his whole Liverpool career (although admittedly that is including one beautiful header at Anfield where he attacked it near post and glanced the ball into the far corner). If I'm wrong, and he is about to display the heading attributes of a young Shearer I'll be the first to admit it when he does. I have to say though that sofar I have seen no evidence of it.
The last option is of a strikers goal. A poached rebound, a ricochet off the post and he's the first there, a ball pulled back from the byline to an unmarked Morientes who has gone in and out, getting himself open in the box, the goalkeeper dropping a shot and Nando pouncing. It's unlikely. He doesn't make those sort of movements in the area. Not for him the Fowleresque moving when everybody else stands still goal poachers instinct. Of course if it hits the post and rebounds out straight to him he may bury it, but he doesn't actively make himself open in the box.

Cisse you'd try and play in with a through ball because he does play on the shoulder (although admittedly the wrong shoulder which is why he's constantly offside). He would get the odd rebound and deflection in the box because though he lacks awareness, he has got a searing burst of pace to get to the ball first.
Crouch would, will and does score with headers. He'll also show for a through ball and isn't quite as slow as many believe. He'll have a shot from distance and gets himself open in the box a lot. My feeling is that his current goal tally is almost but not quite acceptable for the type of player he is. My prediction is that he will score absolutely bags of goals for Liverpool.
Fowler is of course the one out of the four who moves, looks and thinks like a goal poacher. Every time somebody has a shot watch the slow-mo. You'll see all the heads turn and the bodies remain stationary as if cast in stone. All that is except for one unfit and overwieght striker who is living on his wits, arriving infront of the keeper waiting for the fumble. Note as Kewell gets to the byline and pulls it back, the rotund figure checking in, checking out and then in again to make himself open. Notice how when he doesn't get it he's on the move again in and behind his marker, all the while open. The ball hasn't come sofar but it will. When it does watch out for the portly strikers instant control and finish. He'll score goals aplenty if he plays with the right strikers. You want to talk about a striker who will score headers talk about Fowler, he'll score more than Morientes from crosses I'm certain of it.

So that's my take. Disagree all you like but I'm no moron when it comes to football. Strikers must offer threat, and good ones do nine times out of ten. Morientes offers no threat whatsoever and it's time for rafa to admit it. Whether some of the posters on here care to admit it or not is entirely a matter for them.

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:12 pm

Ah kindaconfused I remember the very fellow. I'm obviously totally wasting my time trying to explain.

by **stmichael** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:28 pm

bigmick wrote:Crouch would, will and does score with headers. He'll also show for a through ball and isn't quite as slow as many believe. He'll have a shot from distance and gets himself open in the box a lot. My feeling is that his current goal tally is almost but not quite acceptable for the type of player he is. My prediction is that he will score absolutely bags of goals for Liverpool.

I agree with this Bigmick, having been one of the few on here who championed the signing of Crouch in the first place.

We were too soft especially away from home last year. Crouch along with Sissoko and Reina have added much needed strength down the spine of the team. If you dont like him thats your problem, but you are wrong not acknowledge the contribution he makes in terms of his ability to hold up the play when the ball is being played out of defence therefore releaving pressure on the defence, and in terms of his ability to work the centre halves all day long and create space for others. You are also wrong to say he lacks agression. Crouch has never ducked a challenge and goes in where the boots are flying.

He was the right player for Rafa to have signed based upon the weaknesses in the team from last sesaon our resilience and results are the evidence to support this view.

Since Crouch got his first goal against Wigan he has started 16 games and scored 8 goals which is a pretty decent return for a striker. If he had a partner doing the same then we would not be talking about a goalscoring crisis. Also, if that had been Rooney with the volley onto the bar or the backheel yesterday, everyone would be wetting themselves.

by **Redrider** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:46 pm

bigmick wrote:For starters, you can't play him in with a through ball because a) he generally sits too deep and even when he doesn't, he doesn't really play off the shoulder of the defender. His momentum is generally towards the man with the ball rather than spinning and going away from him which you need to play him into a scoring opportunity.

Exactly,
One of the points I was making. All of the forwards are playing too deep. They are arriving in the box, too late when the defenders are already in postion. Yesterday's goal was a classic exception.
It seems too easy to me to blame the players and probably unjust.
As I said, they must be under orders to help the mid-field and rely on counter attacks.
Here, you would think that Cisse would come into his own with his turbo-charged acceleration, but in such situations he often finds himself up-front with no support and then no ideas, getting pushed into wide positions as defenders recover.
Crouch is not a frontman, he is definitely not strong enough. He has been pushed up front because of his height and his ball control, he is not a fox in the box and neither is he a speed merchant. He is perfectly adequate at what he does,in holding the ball, causing mayhem for defenders and directing balls off to others, ie. the perfect target man for long balls, 8 to 10 goals a season is all you can expect from Crouch.
It remains to be seen how Fowler will perform, I suspect that he will suffer like Morientes from being pulled deep and a lack of incisive passing when he does approach the box.
If you draw comparisons with Barca, they manage to keep posssession with both short and long balls that mainly go forward, whereas a lot of our short passes are sideways, with only the long balls making ground, 70% of which are then lost.
Thus, only rarely are we finding ourselves with a forward in a good position quickly enough and the Forwards take the blame for not scoring.
The moronic wisdom on the forums then calls for 'scapegoats' when we hit a sticky patch!! (Manu, B'ham Charlton & Benfica)
Rafa, saved us from Ged, drinks with the fans and won the European Cup, so he cannot be blamed. The defence has not let in many goals and the mid-field contributes an array of superb looking long balls from Gerrard and Alonso, so they must be blameless. So 'qed' it must be the forwards who are not scoring, Harry K had a roasting last season, so now it must be anothor por sod's turn. Morientes will do !!
Now, maybe Moronic is not the right word to describe all the posts related to the down with Nando campaign, but there are enough examples of purile responses that are not clever enough to be taken as insults as their point is lost in explitives, to prove that there are Morons alive in this thread.
However, in defence of yourself, I would not place your responses in that category, but there are certainly others who should question their contributions.
Anyway, getting back to the point, let's give Moro a break, the lack of goals may not be his fault and let's face it our support is needed to give him the confidence to break his lean spell and make Benfica suffer.
PS.
As to Kindaconfused, not me !!

by **tubby** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:24 pm

Kukilon wrote:It's time to let Morientes sit on the bench for a bit. Team either Robbie or Cisse up with Crouch. I'd rather see Robbie having a go.

I dont think Rafa is about to give him a spell on thebench, if anyting he gonna keep playing him.

Rafael Benitez believes keeping Fernando Morientes on the pitch is the only way to help the Spaniard out of his barren spell.

The Liverpool boss stunned the Kop on Sunday by withdrawing the impressive Peter Crouch from the 1-0 victory over Manchester City, rather than the misfiring Morientes.

For the first time in Benitez’s reign as Liverpool manager, one of his decisions was booed by the home fans, who idolise their manager but are running out of patience with Spain international Morientes.

He is in the middle of a wretched run that sees him scoreless in his last 11 appearances for the European champions.

But Benitez said: “He cannot solve the problem when he is sitting on the bench.”

The Spaniard used the same policy when Crouch was going through his nightmare spell without hitting the net earlier in the season, keeping him in the side despite derision from critics.

Morientes, who has spent 14 unconvincing months at Anfield, has managed just nine goals in 49 games for Liverpool. This term he has hit just three league goals and six in 33 games overall.

Benitez sees only one way to solve the crisis: “I was hoping to see Morientes score, Crouch managed to get one in the cup against Manchester United and it would have been good for Fernando to also get on the scoresheet.

“It would have given him more confidence. But if you want to see your strikers scoring goals you cannot leave them out.

“If you want to support one player then you need to keep him on the pitch, taking him off does not achieve anything.

“Fernando is a good finisher. His career figures show that. He has scored many goals wherever he has played.

“Now he needs more confidence. And if you want to give him that then he needs to play, he cannot change the situation when he is not on the pitch.”

Liverpool’s lack of goals is costing them second spot, having drawn level with Manchester United but with a hopelessly inferior goal difference. The victory over City was their 10th 1-0 win of the campaign.

They have not scored more than one goal in a game since the December 28 win at Everton.

Their success has been founded on 28 clean sheets, 12 at home in the league and 18 away. Jose Reina has managed 24 of those shut-outs with Liverpool conceding only five in 14 home league games.

Even Benitez is now showing signs of concern. He said: “I decided to use Morientes and Crouch because they have a good understanding. And they played well.

“They worked hard, created chances, they kept possession and fed the ball to the midfielders and wingers, but the problem is we need to score more. When that happens everyone will have more confidence.

“It is becoming nervous for me too. The positive is another victory, another clean sheet and another three points.

“But when you create as many chances as we are then you have to score more goals.

“We put ourselves under pressure. When we do not score then the players do not have confidence and lose the ball. It makes it worse for the team.

“If you make mistakes you become more nervous and if you are nervous you make more mistakes.

"It is a vicious circle.

“The only way to break this circle is to score more, certainly the second goal when you go ahead.

“Fernando is playing really well outside the box. He is keeping possession and passing well and he gives us good options.

“But inside the box we need to finish the chances, he needs to be a little more selfish.

“We are now level with Manchester United, that is very important and it keeps us going in the direction that we want.

“Also it has opened up a gap between ourselves and the teams below, that brings us closer to achieving our targets.”

For Manchester City chief Stuart Pearce the first target must be to achieve better away results, having taken only four points from 11 away league matches since early September.

He said: “We did not give them a good game, and too many did not do a good shift for me. Morally they didn’t want the ball and didn’t hold on to the ball.

“We did not believe enough and we did not get after Liverpool enough, and our best spell was after we went down to 10 men with (Joey) Barton sent off.”

He added: “Everyone will view what we did as acceptable and we have a ready made excuse, but that does not wash with me. We were apprehensive with the ball. If you see things as a manager, people have got to be told and it is how they respond to that now.”

by **woof woof !** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:50 pm

quote
Benitez sees only one way to solve the crisis: “I was hoping to see Morientes score, Crouch managed to get one in the cup against Manchester United and it would have been good for Fernando to also get on the scoresheet.

It would have given him more confidence. But if you want to see your strikers scoring goals you cannot leave them out.

If you want to support one player then you need to keep him on the pitch, taking him off does not achieve anything."

Has Cisse packed his suitcase yet ? If that quote is not a slap in the face for Djibril I don't know what is . I almost feel sorry for the guy.

by **tubby** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:01 pm

Shamre really as towards the end of last season fans couldnt wait to see him play and they really got behind him but since then hes just turned into a villain. Funny thin is hes scored more goals than Crouch and Morientes have this year.

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:31 pm

Redrider wrote:[Exactly,
One of the points I was making. All of the forwards are playing too deep. They are arriving in the box, too late when the defenders are already in postion. Yesterday's goal was a classic exception.

This is a strange one and I sort of disagree with you twice in one sentence if that is possible. Sorry about the technical nature of this debate but here goes.
The problem with trying to play a through ball to Morientes is mainly not that he plays too deep in my view. Much more of a problem with trying to play a through ball to the Spaniard (and this isn't really his fault I might add) is that he is by nature a link striker. If Alonso gets the ball, or Gerrard picks it up then Morientes will nine times out of ten come towards him. It is not in his nature to come in short and spin or play on the shoulder of the defender. In all fairness to Nando that isn't and never has been his game, I was merely going through the ways in which we can reasonably expect him to score a goal and putting a cross against the extremely unlikely ones. I think most people would agree the chances of Morientes being put through and scoring in a similar manner to the Crespo was against us at Stamford Beach are very slim. It's not because he plays too deep, it's because he doesn't look for that type of delivery or posess the pace and strength to make it happen.
As for arriving in the box too late, I think in the case of our so-called better headers of the ball (Crouch and Morientes) the reverse is the case. They both arrive in the box far too early, particularly Morientes. If the ball gets pinged out to Kewell wide left, he does a stepover move and crosses it in, you want to be no nearer than the edge of the box as he pulls the trigger. You want to be arriving at the same time as the ball, at pace with conviction if you are serious about scoring headed goals. They both get caught unde the flight of the ball too often, hitting the space too early and allowing their anxiety to diminish their chances of scoring.
Watch the best attacking headers, a young Shearer or a Scholes and they arrive. It makes you much more difficult to mark and the key is you pick the area of the box you want to be in, away from the traffic and gamble a bit the flight of the ball. You've got to arrive though, if you're standing in the hole before the ball gets there you'll get nailed.
Funnily enough, though the two examples I've used both like to arrive they do it slightly differently. As Shearer is coming from a higher position he has to get in fractionally earlier or he gets blocked off by good defences. It's only a fraction of a second but then he would rely on his immense body strength to hold his position in the hole. Anyways its a subject all on its own and you could go on about it all night. In a nutshell, I would be amazed if Morientes is not fighting the urge to constantly get in too early at the moment. It's a dead giveaway for a striker who lacks confidence, his anxiety that he might not get there in time sucking him into the holes too early.

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