Liverpool FC Forum

by **mikeg** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:43 pm

what do people think about pacy wingers? i think its becoming a bit of an obsession with ppl nowadays and that people think a good football team cant be created without two whippets flying down each flank!!

personally i still prefer to see a team with hard working clever skillful players on the left and right side of midfield (john barnes/beckham type) than the kick and run as fast as you can type (giggs, downing etc)

i think liverpool pass and move philosophy is still the way forward to produce a team capable of destroying any other, when you build a team that embraces and masters that art it is unstoppable, just like we were in the 80's. The chelsea philosophy is highly simple but highly effective but up against a total passing team i believe it will be flawed, the chelsea philosophy is basically 1 man up front, 2 lightening quick wingers and 7 hard working defense minded players which makes them really hard to score against but always a real threat to score themselves, hence they sit there simple and effective carcass on top of the premiership at the moment, but in the long run it is a philosophy that can be surmounted by a well built organised pass and move team like we were in the 80's, i have no doubts in my mind that that team would embarrass this current chelsea team.

just my opinion but the premiership seems to be obsessed with the likes of giggs, robben, swp etc when IMO the greatest team ever assembled (liverpool in the 80's) had no players like this, i believe rafa shares my philosophy too and thats why we wont ever see the likes of joaquin at anfield and that also cisse will be shown the door eventually because is first touch is poor, being able to keep the ball is the key ingredient required in bringing the old liverpool pass and groove back again and i truly believe that in 2 years from now we will see a very beautiful liverpool side perched up on top of that premiership table.

believe! :buttrock

by **adamnbarrett** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:57 pm

Good post. I see what you're saying. As long as a winger can cross and get to the byline, I don't think pace is a necessitty (sp?) but In my team I'd prefer to have a pacey winger because they frighten the life out of defenders e.g. aaron lennon of spurs.

The chelsea point is interesting because IMO chelsea are built up of a team of pacey people. Also when you see chelsea live you see when they lose the ball all their players run back to get everyman behind the ball so it is hard to break down, this is easier to do with fast players because they use their pace to get back so eventually chelsea have at least 2 banks of 4. This is harder to see when watching on TV.

As you say Rafa makes his team without any real pacey wingers. Wingers is often used for everyon out wide but there is a difference between wingers and left-sided midfield players. I see that our wide men often cross from deep not the by-line which many pacey wingers cross from.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:02 pm

Haha, excellent post Mike.

However i disagree.... sort of. Barnes could beat a man. The fact is though, you need quality players. Its no good having a winger/pacey man out wide. First and foremost he MUST be a footballer. I've said this countless times and i stand by it, for me, as long as you have 11 footballers on the pitch rather than average players with certain skill's, you'll be an excellent side. I think on that side of what you are saying, you are totally correct.

Crouch hasn't got particullarly great pace/strength/finishing ability, heading ability, aggression, all things that are linked with great strikers, yet he's an important part of the team.

However, if you can find a quality player who has the pace and ability to keep the ball, move well and dribble then you've hit the jackpot. That for me is why a player like Joaquin would simply transform Liverpool FC. He's got everything, from a brain, to physical and technical attributes. He has the ability to keep the ball, move into space, he has skill and power aswell. He could and would develope a team mentallity at this club in that hiis work rate and unselfishness would improve under Rafa.

What we need and lack... is the ability to be unpredictable. Sometimes teams can stop Gerrard and they can stop Liverpool. Not always, good players like Luis Garcia, Riise, Crouch and Pongolle will always give us options, but it would be nice to have more than one match winner in the side. Another world class player you can rely on.

Liverpool only really have 2 (maybe 4) class players, Alonso and Gerrard so far as far as i'm concerned. Hyypia and Reina being the maybe's... The only world class player is Gerrard.

A player like Joaquin, who can be having a bad game against a good side, but then pull a rabbit out the hat with a great run and cross or shot because of world class ability is in my opinion essential to us making that next step, one that would see us bring the premiership home.

by **drummerphil** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:10 pm

mikeg wrote:what do people think about pacy wingers? i think its becoming a bit of an obsession with ppl nowadays and that people think a good football team cant be created without two whippets flying down each flank!!

personally i still prefer to see a team with hard working clever skillful players on the left and right side of midfield (john barnes/beckham type) than the kick and run as fast as you can type (giggs, downing etc)

i think liverpool pass and move philosophy is still the way forward to produce a team capable of destroying any other, when you build a team that embraces and masters that art it is unstoppable, just like we were in the 80's. The chelsea philosophy is highly simple but highly effective but up against a total passing team i believe it will be flawed, the chelsea philosophy is basically 1 man up front, 2 lightening quick wingers and 7 hard working defense minded players which makes them really hard to score against but always a real threat to score themselves, hence they sit there simple and effective carcass on top of the premiership at the moment, but in the long run it is a philosophy that can be surmounted by a well built organised pass and move team like we were in the 80's, i have no doubts in my mind that that team would embarrass this current chelsea team.

just my opinion but the premiership seems to be obsessed with the likes of giggs, robben, swp etc when IMO the greatest team ever assembled (liverpool in the 80's) had no players like this, i believe rafa shares my philosophy too and thats why we wont ever see the likes of joaquin at anfield and that also cisse will be shown the door eventually because is first touch is poor, being able to keep the ball is the key ingredient required in bringing the old liverpool pass and groove back again and i truly believe that in 2 years from now we will see a very beautiful liverpool side perched up on top of that premiership table.

believe!

great post from a newbie........well done mate.

A fast pacey winger is ok if you have players that can appreciate the pace he has and run into positions to make use of it.
Cisse is the only player with pace in our forward line up who can make the runs where we would benefit.
If you watch Chelsea alot of times Robben will get the ball run at a defence but support can be 20 yards back, and the ball ends up being passed back.This enables defenders to get back in position and ends up being a total waste of energy on the wingers behalf because of no support.
Quick one and two touch passing can achieve the desired effect with one defence splitting pass making all the difference.
Personally without quicker players in the forward line a very fast pacey winger for us would be a luxery the side can afford to do without.A intelligent winger with a great cross on him is a different thing entirely.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:10 pm

i think the point is though mate they are all wide players by nature, and wether they rely on pace, a great cross or whatever they know the art of playing the touchline.
under houllier we had players like danny murphy, salif diao and vlad smicer play wide when it was obvious they didnt know how to give teams width and balance, liverpool suffered because of it.
maybe you dont need a cally - head down and run like the wind - type of winger but you need someone who is going to give the fullbacks plenty of problems and isnt going to keep drifting inside leaving the cenrte midfielders without options.
dont forget that eighties side had two fullbacks who used to bomb on and always hugged the touchlines, basically playing as wingers, giving us width, an outball if the centre became cluttered and plenty of good quality crosses into the box. every good team has the ability to get round defences out wide.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:24 pm

Bring back Mark Walters

Haven't a great deal to add here - a cracking couple of posts from mikeg and stu though. Two different takes on the problem, both of which I agree with.

Basically though, the problem we have is that there aren't many Joaquins out there at the minute, and if players like that are out of our price range, you have to look at what cheaper players are there, and what they can bring to the team. For me, an adept right-sided midfielder that can take and make passes will do very nicely for now. So long as we have someone out there that's always a passing option, he doesn't need to be going at the left back all day long to do a job for the team. If he has a good short passing game and the ability to put a decent cross in, that's basically all we're looking for. We just need a specialist in that position so that we're not using makeweights all the time.

The key with the great 80s LFC sides was that they used the whole width of the pitch, and even though there was always an excellent shape about the side, we were always a 1-2 away from getting in behind the defence, and then marauding forwards into the box. With Kewell, Alonso, Gerrard and AN Other across the middle, plus Crouch and AN Other up ahead, there's a wealth of passing ability and with that a wealth of opportunity to hurt teams.

The Boltons of the Prem will get results with the constant hit-and-hope balls, but at the end of the day teams that can keep possession, frustrating midfields, working defences hard, dictating the pace of a game, and keep the ball moving on the deck will always be more consistent. With Stevie on the right we've had that recently, but now that the Window's open we need to find a guy that can free him up so that him and Alonso can orchestrate matters from the middle.

by **andy_g** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:29 pm

the ability too use the flanks well is as important now as it has been for as long as the game has been played, whether it's with out and out wingers (your whippets

), wide midfielders, wing backs, attack minder full backs or whatever. though i agree with the point that the one dimensional approach of chelsea in building the team around a set of fast, relatively skillful wingers is a little dimensional. however, i would never mark these players down as kick and run as fast as you can types - watching giggs at his peak was absolutely exilerating, even for an LFC fan.

flowing pass and move football, or a style approaching the glorious total football of that incredible ajax team is what we should aim at i believe. but the ability to throw a pacy winger into that mix is not something to shy away from. basically any team with a one dimensional policy, be it chelsea's or bolton's style (or dare i say it even ours at some points) can be undone by clever flowing football.

by **Mikz** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:54 pm

And all this comes down to quality. Id love a Houghton Johnston or even better Jimmy Case in this team, who not only gave us that width and fitted into the total passing theme-but worked their socks off for the team.
I think all the pace and need for it started with the Giggs /Kenchelskis set up in that United team.They were both like whippets, and on top of their quality were playing in a great team high on confidence.
I prefer the fast flowing pass and move style,when its done right -its undefendable

by **JBG** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:07 pm

A very good post from Mikeg, but like Stu, I disagree with some of it.

First and foremost a winger should be a good footballer, but the best wingers were both good footballers and great athletes.

It is one thing gaining a yard with a dummy, step over or shimmy, but you really need a burst of acceleration to exploit the space, otherwise you are inviting the full back to recover and force you wide.

John Barnes at his peak had an explosive physique to couple with his skill and intelligence and when he beat a man with a shimmy, he was gone. Barnes suffered a few injuries in 1991-1992 and when he came back, he had gained weight and in my opinion he was then finished as a top class winger. The skill was still there, the brain was still there, but his pace and power had gone. It was only under Roy Evans did he get a second wind as a central midfielder, but even then, his waning physical abilities eventually became cruelly exposed.

I disagree that Ryan Giggs is a "kick it and chase" winger. At his peak he was a terrific footballer with remarkable intelligence in and around the box. The only change is that he has lost his explosiveness with age.

All the same, I agree with the gist of what mikeg is saying. Damien Duff, SWP and Robben are not a patch on Barnes or Giggs in footballing terms.

by **72-1136150807** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:09 pm

I like the way you are thinking along the lines of the great 'pass and move' philosophy. Thats the way football should be played, but wingers can be a part of this too, think of a good set of passes through the centre, keeping possession then the incisive through ball to a winger going full pelt and whipping in for your Fowlers of the world to stick home. Great, great football, but like you say, Chelsea dont particularly play that way, its more long ball into Drogba/Crespo, and then the scraps are picked up by the pacy wingers or fat Frank and they go from there, and are instantly dangerous, as they are so far into the opposition half.

As for the 'premiership being obsessed' with wingers. Its probably just down to the nature of football now, due in the main part to Sky Sports. Its seen a lot more as 'family entertainment' and obviously the players like Giggs and Ronaldo just for example do do things that make you get out of your seat, so they hype these players and focus on what they have done during the game.
Whereas for me, although I enjoy watching flair players, I would be just as, if not more happy to watch highlights on the art of tackling.

As long as we have a cohesive unit, that know where each other are, like second nature, then I think that free flowing fotoball will prevail, Rafa did it at Valencia, and he will do it here. We are slowly taking our games to the level that Valencia were at when they taught us a footballing lesson at Anfield a few years back.

The signs are there, the one touch passes and one - twos are becoming more and more part of our game. A couple of key signings and we will definetly be on our way.

by **Jari's mullet** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:10 pm

One thing that Kewell has been showing over the last few games is the desire to reach the byline and deliver a cross. I watched the Spurs/Leicester game and I was impressed by Aaron Lennon, he seemed to have pace and trickery. I am sure Riise/Warnock and Kewell would have taken note of his pace in particular as they will be looking to keep him quiet. As Mikeg pointed out though pace is not a prerequiste of being a good wide player. If you have 10 outfield players committed to an intelligent pass and move game, then you are likely to find space, be it in the middle of the park or out wide to the touchlines. Having space affords time, which makes picking a pass or for someone out wide playing a decent ball into the area that little bit easier.

by **Jari's mullet** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:16 pm

One good example of a kick and chase it player from years gone by was Stuart Pearce who booted 20 yards in front of him and charged after it like a rhinocerous, obliterating anything in his way.

by **JBG** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:17 pm

Harry Kewell has/had all the characteristics of the perfect winger.

Will he ever recapture it, thats the question.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:23 pm

JBG he looks faster again, he was lightening when we first signed him, now though i think he looks to have lost a yard but his use of the ball seems better and so does his delivery.

I thought again against Luton in the second half he was one of our better players. I really think he's starting to find a consistent run of form and after my thoughts on him over the last few years, for me to turn round and say that should mean something.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:32 pm

stu_the_red wrote:JBG he looks faster again, he was lightening when we first signed him, now though i think he looks to have lost a yard but his use of the ball seems better and so does his delivery.

I thought again against Luton in the second half he was one of our better players. I really think he's starting to find a consistent run of form and after my thoughts on him over the last few years, for me to turn round and say that should mean something.

After Gerrard, Kewell was our best player all game v Luton. Defensively he was poor first half, but going forward he rarely wasted a ball.

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