Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC #1** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:41 am

tel wrote:
LFC #1 wrote:Bigmick is spot on here, and I also agree with laza about the throat-slitting thing with the new haka (Kapa o Pango), I don't like it at all. They've only done that haka once though, the general consensus is that the traditions of Ka Mate should be kept.

As for turning your back on the haka to trivialise it, how stupid that was. I remember the Australians doing it in Wellington I nbaout 1997 and we beat you by 40 points, how clever it was to disrespect the haka like that.

52299818, Go to South Auckland and say booing the haka is ok, just because Australia discredits the culture of its natives, doesn’t mean you can disrespect ours.

You may have a point if only the Maori team members did the haka, but to have a bunch of white skinned guys doing it removes any requirement for respecting ancient customs and traditions. You can hardly say the haka is a tradition for Anglo Saxon white ppl born in NZ.

From memory, Maori tribes did the haka to scare off these very guys that came to NZ and killed most of them off.

So dont go giving history lessons to the Aussies when you dont exactly know your own

I see your point, but the Maori people generally have no problem with pakeha (white people) doing the haka in this situation, as the All Blacks are such a big part of the NZ culture as a whole, and it is natural that they encompass a large part of the Maori culture. Since going into a rugby game is like going into battle, it seems ok using an ancient Maori war dance as a challenge to the opposition. The All Blacks have done it since the inception of the national team, and the Maori culture has had a huge impact on Rugby in New Zealand.

I know my history fine mate, and Maori culture was a big part of my education in NZ. Perhaps Australia should take a leaf out of New Zealand's book and give the Aboriginals a little more respect?

I am not Maori (we think their is some in our family going back several generations), but I did a haka with a few other white fellas (and oen Maori guy) on a Marae (the traditional Maori meeting place) in front of our whole grade at school, as well as Maori elders etc. Our teacher, who was Maori didn't seem to have a problem choosing a couple of white fellas (even when she could've chosen more Maori people to do it), because we respected their culture and understood what the haka meant.

I don’t want to get into an argument here, but do me a favour and don’t patronise me.

by **LFC #1** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:46 am

Also, I forgot to add that the haka for the All Blacks also helps bond the team together, so it would be pointless just the Maori members doing it. The new haka, "Kapa o Pango", was worked on with the help of a senior member of one of the large Maori tribes in NZ, they wouldn’t be helping out if they had a problem with pakeha performing it would they? In fact they are probably happy that their culture gets so much recognition from our national sporting icon. In fact, in thinking about it, Aaron Mauger led the haka the other day against Ireland, and guess what he isn't Maori, neither is Tana Umaga who often leads it as well.

I can see this thread being moved to general chat very soon, sorry people. :blush:

by **Kid a** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:20 am

LFC #1 wrote:
Kid a wrote:famous disrespectal chant of "A estos putos les tenemo que ganar".

Whats that translate into in English?

We have to beat these...

Then, I don't have an exact translation for "putos". A.seholes, b.itches. etc. You get the picture. That chant always gets people fired up..

by **el_stinger** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:31 am

Sorry Kid, you are a sore loser. You can dish it out, but you can't take it. And when you lose, you find all else is to blame except for yourselves. Your years of rough play, poor gamesmanship and rolling and diving and ARROGANCE does not imply that its ok. ITS NOT OK, just with the Turks, URGAY will be found out. How does it feel to be knocked out of the World Cup? Ask me, I'm glad to pass the burden onto you, especially to your country, because all these years, 32 years of torment, your country deserves it the most. Sucked in!

by **tel** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:58 am

LFC #1 wrote:
tel wrote:
LFC #1 wrote:Bigmick is spot on here, and I also agree with laza about the throat-slitting thing with the new haka (Kapa o Pango), I don't like it at all. They've only done that haka once though, the general consensus is that the traditions of Ka Mate should be kept.

As for turning your back on the haka to trivialise it, how stupid that was. I remember the Australians doing it in Wellington I nbaout 1997 and we beat you by 40 points, how clever it was to disrespect the haka like that.

52299818, Go to South Auckland and say booing the haka is ok, just because Australia discredits the culture of its natives, doesn’t mean you can disrespect ours.

You may have a point if only the Maori team members did the haka, but to have a bunch of white skinned guys doing it removes any requirement for respecting ancient customs and traditions. You can hardly say the haka is a tradition for Anglo Saxon white ppl born in NZ.

From memory, Maori tribes did the haka to scare off these very guys that came to NZ and killed most of them off.

So dont go giving history lessons to the Aussies when you dont exactly know your own

I see your point, but the Maori people generally have no problem with pakeha (white people) doing the haka in this situation, as the All Blacks are such a big part of the NZ culture as a whole, and it is natural that they encompass a large part of the Maori culture. Since going into a rugby game is like going into battle, it seems ok using an ancient Maori war dance as a challenge to the opposition. The All Blacks have done it since the inception of the national team, and the Maori culture has had a huge impact on Rugby in New Zealand.

I know my history fine mate, and Maori culture was a big part of my education in NZ. Perhaps Australia should take a leaf out of New Zealand's book and give the Aboriginals a little more respect?

I am not Maori (we think their is some in our family going back several generations), but I did a haka with a few other white fellas (and oen Maori guy) on a Marae (the traditional Maori meeting place) in front of our whole grade at school, as well as Maori elders etc. Our teacher, who was Maori didn't seem to have a problem choosing a couple of white fellas (even when she could've chosen more Maori people to do it), because we respected their culture and understood what the haka meant.

I don’t want to get into an argument here, but do me a favour and don’t patronise me.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with white ppl doing the haka.

What I'm saying is:

1) if Maoris do the haka, its their culture and tradition and deserves respect

2) when white guys are doing it, its not their history, culture or tradition so no need for respect

So the Aussies have every right to turn their backs when the all blacks do it. The allblacks do the haka not to honour their traditions and culture, but to intimidate the opponent. And in that context, the opponent has every right to ignore it.

Some of us have seen the movie once were warriors

by **Kid a** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:07 am

What the hell are you rambling on about?? This is why I called numbers a moron, and this is why I will also label you such. Read my post. How am I a sore loser?? You and him act as if I came into this thread praising Uruguay and never saying a bad word. Both of you comment on me, but fail to take in anything I said. If you actually responded to what I said, instead of commenting on me and deflecting...maybe we could actually have a worthwhile conversation. I expected to be ganged up on by you Australian folk, but all I have spoken is the truth in my opinion. Your team played just as dirty, applied the same negative time wasting nactics, and your supporters were just as shameful (booring the anthem). How someone can argue with that is beyond me. If you read, I put the blame on the coach!! Uruguay have more than enough talent to beat Australia over two legs, and more than enough talent not to be playing this play-off and to qualify directly. I blame him. Uruguay have no system of play, they hoof the ball upfield most times.
This is the coach's fault. Even Venezuela or Chile, can play better passing football. Also Forlan and Recoba are the only real "footballers" that start. Insane. You're not insultin my country, mate. I'm not Uruguayan. My father is. He doesn't even care. The majority of knowledgable Uruguay fans know that Uruguay would have been lucky to go to the World Cup. They have great individual players, but their team play is :censored:

most of the time. I still would have loved it if we won...no doubt. But, I knew that it would be tough. I knew that Uruguay would be playing for a draw in the second leg, and I knew that Fossati would stick to that plan and hope for a lucky goal. This is why I hate the coach. We should have played a more attacking side. The f.ucker waited until the 98th minute to put in the incredible offensive spark Uruguay have in Estoyanoff. The 98th minute!!! Should have went at you all out after you scored. Took no chances. One thing I am severely :censored:

off at, is that I spent like 50 dollars on a Uruguay jersey and now there's less and less chance I'll be able to wear it for the near future.

by **el_stinger** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:16 am

"Uruguay plays rough, they have a reputation for it. They can be poor sports if they lose, and anyone coming to Uruguay to play will certainly be shown no respect. I won't deny any of this, Australians have torealize that their team and supporters are no better and have no room to look down. "

Maybe so, but Australia have played like this for 2 games, whereas URGAY have played like this forever. So what, we're in the World Cup, cry as much you want.

by **Kid a** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:24 am

I can see we're not going to be able to have an actual discussion ever. You just want to gloat.

Mark my words - I will be PMing you once the World Cup comes around, and your team gets knocked out after not winning a single game ..to annoy you.

by **Lionheart** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:38 am

Kid a - I'm not sure if you have actually discussed the footballing history between our two nations (Uruguay & Australia) but I hardly think you, or any Uruguayian for that matter, are in a position to lecture on sportsmanship and negative play.

Ask your father about Uruguay's tour of Australia in 1974...(for the readers - and I hope I don't bore anyone here, skip to the last paragraph maybe). The first match was in Melbourne and finished 0-0. The Uruguayans became frustrated and resorted to horrible foul tactics, expecially off the ball and behind play.

Three days later the two sides met again in Sydney (and I was there and witnessed the game first hand). This was a game that demonstrated the worst fouls and acts of poor sportsmanship ever seen on a football park anywhere.

To paraphrase the 1974 German football historian Andre Kruger, " The Uruguayans kicked, punched and cursed, they hit everything they could reach . In fact Australian's striker, Ray Baartz, came in for special attention (he was playing brilliantly and had put Australia 1-0 up 60 minutes into the game) at one stage when he received a 'karate chop' type blow directly to his throat from Uruguayan defender Baristo (unseen by officials). Baartz collapsed to the ground and was unable to breath and required urgent medical attention. Baartz collapsed later that night suffering from symptoms similar to a stroke (secondary to the blow which caused the blood vessels in Baartz neck to swell and occlude the blood supply to his brain). He was on life support for the next two days and took two years to get back onto the park. Baartz missed the 1974 World Cup because of that dispicable callous act.

Baristo was later sent red carded (by English referee Campbell) and the Uraguayans 'went mad'. Campbell was actually punched in the nose and he was forced to warn the Uraguayan coach that he would abandon the match if things didn't settle down. Garisto actually had one of his own team mates hit him in the face and then went to the referee to blame it on the Australians (this was 10-15 meters in front of where I was sitting with my father). Baristo was off...things calmed down and from the restart the Uraguayan Morena controlled the ball, with two hands, before kicking the ball into the back of the net. The offence was as clear as day to everyone. In fact the action was just plain childish and silly, but when the goal was disallowed the Uruguayans whipped themselves into an even greater frenzy of frustration, anger and disappointment.

Toward the end of the match Uruguay pushed EVERYONE, except the keeper (Fernandez), forward in the hope of getting an equaliser. What happened next would have been just comical if everyone hadn't been so dumbstruck by the Uruguayan's bad behaviour and poor sportsmanship - Peter Ollerton found himself on the receiving end of a goalmouth clearance and ran forward to Uruguay's goal. Fenernadez came out at a rush to meet Ollerton and the ball on the half way line. Ollerton rounded the keeper and set off toward the goal with ALL of the remaining 10 Uruguayan players in hot persuit. The Australians just stopped and watched Ollerton slot the ball into the net when he was just short of the 6 yard box. Final score 2-0.

The World's press were shocked by the result but even more shocked when footage of the game reached them. No less that 8 Uruguayan players should have been sent off for seperate incidents of foul play.

The game is different today. If that game had taken place today Uruguay would have been banned from international football FOREVER. They came to Australia as former world champions, they were brash, arrogant, and thought they were going to play a team of sheep sh@ggers and kangaroo cowboys. What they got was a footballing lesson in discipline and fair play. For some reason the Aussies still went and offered to shake hands after the game...the Uruguayans spat at us!!

I'm not excusing the modern Australian teams, we have LEARNT to develop out 'gamesmanship' from a wonderful tutor...in 1974.

So you see 'Kid a' before you come in here and sprout off about how Aussies are poor loosers and winners, check your history. You are hardly in a position to take any moral high ground here.

It's best to leave what goes on the park...on the park. Otherwise it could get thrown back in your face.

by **el_stinger** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:20 am

Kid a wrote:I can see we're not going to be able to have an actual discussion ever. You just want to gloat.

Mark my words - I will be PMing you once the World Cup comes around, and your team gets knocked out after not winning a single game ..to annoy you.

Who cares, at least we got there, we're not thinking about anything else. Anything else will be extra. LOL

by **Judge** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:23 am

el_stinger wrote:
Kid a wrote:I can see we're not going to be able to have an actual discussion ever. You just want to gloat.

Mark my words - I will be PMing you once the World Cup comes around, and your team gets knocked out after not winning a single game ..to annoy you.

Who cares, at least we got there, we're not thinking about anything else. Anything else will be extra. LOL

i will also pm you both, as my country will go further still

by **AussieKopite** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:57 am

All I was sayign is that the Anthems should be left alone. Because I live in Australia and we are playing against the Kiwis so much the Haka has become gimmicky. So much so that they only do the throat-slitting one for special occasions. As its history as a war dance and meant to intimidate, the best way for any nation to psychologically take the wind out of their sails is to not take it seriously. I will say this for them, their Rugby Union team does it much better than their Rugby League team.

On the Australian Foxsports website it mentions that Popovic and Morales had each other by the throat in the tunnel before the match as well as abuse and throat slitting gestures.

by **AussieKopite** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:00 am

Also a kid, sorry for being a smart :censored:

but you mentioned that you knew you sounded like a sore loser and I felt the need to agree. Just taking the :censored:

mate.

Cheers.

by **Judge** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:03 am

nice banner 52299818

by **AussieKopite** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:11 am

Cheers Judge.

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