Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:08 pm

Little bit controversial, "it's all in the past, let it go etc etc etc" but in a period of quiet on the boards I thought I'd post the question for anybody who's interested.
Firstly it's fair to say that some things would be better, and probably some things worse. The style of play would be different along with the personel.
Here's my read on it. I don't think we would have won the Champions League. OK nobody can be sure and it was done with largely the same players we had under Houllier but some of the players who made massive contributions either wouldn't have been here or wouldn't in all likelyhood have played that way under Houllier. Garcia was a big factor with his goals, Alonso on occasions with his holding midfield play, Carragher at centre-half, Djimi Traore and Igor Biscan in any capacity whatsoever in the playing sense etc etc.
I think though that our league form would have in all probability been more consistent. Under Houllier we were generally fairly difficult to beat and while not being too expansive or exciting, would have finished in fourth last season IMHO.
The key question and the main reason for the post however is Djibril Cisse. Clearly, as the bloke who actually bought him you would expect Houllier to have more faith in him than Rafa. Therefore Cisse would in all probability have played pretty much every game when fit and it's hard to imagine him not scoring at least a few more goals.
The thing is though, most people on the board are of the opinion that we massively overpaid for what is at the absolute best, raw talent. Had Cisse under Houllier not really done the business, shown the same attitude and erratic finishing, where would that have put the manager in the eyes of the fans? On the back of some extremely questionable and expensive mistakes, how would the fans have accepted the form of Cisse based on a transfer fee of 14 million quid had Houllier still been around to carry the can?
I have noticed one or two hankering back recently to the Houllier era. He has made a good start in France and if that continues, along with rafa finding it hard to come to terms with domestic football then the hankering may become louder.
My feeling is though that Houlliers leaving came at just the right time for Liverpool. When I look at the contribution of our record signing and a couple of massive earners who don't get in the first team either through form or injury, my suspicion is that his leaving when he did was very timely for the Frenchman also.

P.S. any threads about our previous manager seem to stir up vitriol. I'm not having a pop at him here, this is just my observation on the situation.

by **stmichael** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:35 pm

Wait until stu the red sees this topic.

Good post bigmick. Despite the fact that we had a good european record under Houllier, there isn't a cat in hells chance that we would have won the champions league under him. Yes houllier made some great signings, but there's a major difference betwenn signing good players and being able to get the best out of them.

Statistics, as Houllier frequently reminded us, rarely lie. And these were the ones which ultimately mattered. He took over a team in 1998 which had just climbed from fourth to third, lying 13 points behind champions Arsenal, and he promised the Premiership within five years. Not only did he fail to achieve that, he oversaw Liverpool's removal from the top three, and left them battling for fourth place, 30 points behind Arsenal, and nearer relegation than the title.

He then even implied that it was pressure from media critics and former players which got him the sack. It wasn't. It was the fans.

I remember his declaration when he signed, in 1998: "Liverpool finished third last season, and that would be considered a good achievement by many. But not by us. We have to improve the team and reach out for top place."

They contrasted that with his words in this season's final match programme, that finishing fourth was a "massive achievement". And it didn't add up.

We watched an uninspiring, one-dimensional style of play,and deemed it so unacceptable Anfield ceased to attract full houses. And that didn't add up in the boardroom. Fans brought up on winning football played with fluency, speed of thought, passion and movement, were watching losing football bereft of those qualities.

And when the Kop started to register their frustration, by chanting "attack, attack, attack", Houllier committed the fatal error of attacking them. "Supporters should support," he said. "I don't know why they were moaning."

Houllier was not just questioning the Kop's loyalty, but its knowledge of football.

And that's when the hard-core minority who still fought his corner on the Kop and in the boardroom stopped doing so. Instead they questioned Houllier's own wisdom.They contrasted his poor foreign buys with Arsene Wenger's, they tired of the excuses which saw everyone blamed but himself and the bizarre trotting out of match stats aimed at convincing the ignorant masses that they had not been watching the same game as him.

Having criticised David Moores, I commend him for looking beyond a friendship and doing the best thing for everyone concerned at the time. We were crying out for change. Not just new money to compete with the top three, but a new leader with new ideas. Rafa is the man for the job, despite some of the ridiculous stick he's been getting recently. Any manager who walks into a new country and wins european football's biggest prize in his first season must be something special.

In the final reckoning it wasn't Houllier's utterances but his poor judgement of players which did for him. He spent more than £100m and, with a few exceptions, it was wasted on too many heartless journeymen. Benitez has only just finished getting rid of a lot of the dross that Houllier bought and is still in the process of building his own team. If you ask me, we are still some way from completing the team that Rafa wants, but come January I expect us to make a statement of intent.

by **JBG** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:11 pm

I agree pretty much with Bigmick's assessment.

There is no way in hot hell would Houllier have won the CL.

However, I think our league form would have been more consistent although I couldn't see Houllier getting us back into the top three.

We might have won a domestic cup.

Playerwise, there is a fair chance that Owen might still be with us. Heskey would still have been sold, with Cisse up front with Owen. Houllier probably would have signed Sean Wright Phillips and Joey Barton over a year ago.

We probably would have a few more wasters from the French League in the squad though.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:30 pm

I agree with JBG, I think the squad would have been more settled, and probably would have acheived 4th in the Premiership with Houlliers knowledge of the Premiership being better than Raffas last year. But you can't blame Raffa for that!!

I think we would have done better in the FA cup, well I hope we would have. and maybe got to the Carling Cup final.

So domestically we would have probably done better. However it would have been done with boring, 10 men behind the ball football, nicking a goal here and there and defending for the rest of the game, except against Newcastle which would have been a 5- 5 thriller??!!??

I think Raffa is still the better manager, I just hope he tries and plays more attacking football. 4-5-1 is the right tactic away from home but I really believe you must put a 442 attacking team out at Anfield.

It would be interesting to have had Houlliers away record and Raffas home record last season as GH normally did well away from home.

by **jonnymac1979** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:32 pm

Weirdly enough, I posted something about 18 months ago about this. It's here if you want it.

by **jonnymac1979** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:41 pm

Brian Reade from the Mirror, 26th May 2004, St Mick?

Come on fella, post your source....... :;):

by **josip84** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:41 pm

bigmick wrote:I have noticed one or two hankering back recently to the Houllier era. He has made a good start in France and if that continues, along with rafa finding it hard to come to terms with domestic football then the hankering may become louder.

Houllier is now the manager of Olympique de Lyon. Lyon have been the french champions for four years now. I think it's only fair to admit that Houllier is currently making the most of the work achieved by Paul Le Guen, previous manager of Olympique de Lyon. Which doesn't mean, of course,that Houllier is a talentless manager. With Houllier's management, Lyon are already in a very good position for a fifth title in a row. One month ago they outplayed Real Madrid 3-0 in the CL. Came back from Rosenborg Norway with another 3 points (1-0).
Like it (him) or not, Houllier IS a good manager and did a good job in Liverpool. He did make mistakes of course. Do you know anyone who doesn't?

by **Ciggy** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:57 pm

If he would have stayed there is noway on earth we would have won the CL, but we would probably be 2nd in the league now.
And then fall to about 3rd/4th again around February next year, he could'nt take us any further it was time for him to go.
Bit like Fergie with the mancs he cant take them any further, I expect MON to be managing Manure by next season, every club needs a fresh start now and again, and Houllier health was at stake should he have stayed on.
I agree with JBG MO would still be with us with Cisse upfront, Baros would have been sold I imagine, and we would have about 4-5 wasters also in the squad.

Cant judge Rafa on this season yet, but Houllier had us playing better in the league than what we are now.

by **Paul C** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:06 pm

I don't doubt that Houllier is a good manager but his man management let him down a lot!

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:12 pm

I dont actually agree with anyone that thinks we would of finished 4th if Houllier had still been in charge.
The season before when he was we scraped 4th then, and lost Owen...HIS star player.
The consistency you are talking about was lost in his last season...unless you count the consistent run off games without a win.
This is not me trying to slag Houllier he did a really good job until the surgery and moved the club forward each season.
But his time was up...and we were getting worse and imo would of fell further away if he wasn't replaced.
I've said this in another thread, the style of football we played at first was not as bad as everyone makes out.
The treble season we scored over a hundred goals and played some really good football.
But all in all we did the right thing and made a great decision appointing Rafa.

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:24 pm

cisses_gona_get_ya wrote:I agree with JBG MO would still be with us with Cisse upfront, Baros would have been sold I imagine, and we would have about 4-5 wasters also in the squad.

So you think Owen would of turned down Real Madrid because of Houllier ?

by **JBG** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:26 pm

Cough, Brian Reade.

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:31 pm

JBG wrote:Cough, Brian Reade.

Why whats Brian Reade said JBG ?

by **JBG** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:35 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
JBG wrote:Cough, Brian Reade.

Why whats Brian Reade said JBG ?

Ask stmichael.

by **Ciggy** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:38 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
cisses_gona_get_ya wrote:I agree with JBG MO would still be with us with Cisse upfront, Baros would have been sold I imagine, and we would have about 4-5 wasters also in the squad.

So you think Owen would of turned down Real Madrid because of Houllier ?

No but he would have stayed for Gerard, and him and Cisse would have been banging them in for fun.

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