Liverpool FC Forum

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:25 pm

This may sound odd. But i get the feeling Rafa doesn't trust Steven Gerrard.

Now, he always gives his intructions to Xabi Alonso during games. Thats understandable, they can obviously communicate faster and more efficiently due to the language. But not only that...

Why haven't we seen Gerrard and Alonso as two central midfielders very often? I'm sick of seeing Gerrard playing infront of the midfield. He's a central, box to box midfielder. He was ineffective yesterday and that was annoying.

Dont' get me wrong, sometimes i agree with it. But apart from the cup final, i can't remember them two playing centre midfield in anygames together.

I like the 4-5-1. I think its a superb formation. Either with a deep striker or another centre midfielder but the sad truth is we don't have the ability out wide or the right sort of forward to currently make this system work.

Zenden for me is a decent player. He's good backup and on a free transfer a decent signing. His movement is good and positive and he gets forward while not totally negleting his defensive duties. He's not the long term answer, he's not class. But i believe he can at least give us balence. On the right we simply have no-one. A major problem and concern. We know who'll sort that out.

While Sissoko has played superbly and we also have Hamann i feel Benitez is trying to keep them all happy at once. Sorry but i don't believe in this. We need to find out our best 11 and quickly. For me, that involves a central midfield PAIRING of Steven Gerrard and Xabi Alonso.

by **stmichael** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:31 pm

Where did you get that one?

by **welsh wizzard** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:00 pm

stevie and alonso will play together once rafa has sorted out right wing left wing and another forward.Come january hopefully joaquin or simao will play right, Kewell hopefully will be back playing to some of his best football, and a forward will come in to replace cisse. Hopefully kuite, Then stevie and alonso can control the centrel midfield.Until then Rafa just has to play with what he's got.Roll on january thats all i can say.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:04 pm

Now breathe!

by **JBG** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:07 pm

The way I look at it Benitez used Gerrard to pin back Makelele.

Not only does Makelele break down opposition attacks and win ball he also sets up plenty of Chelsea attacks with his simple common sense passing from deep.

Gerrard pressed hard on Makelele in both games. The tactic worked very well in the first match and reasonably well yesterday.

It was a bad day in the office and we were beaten by the best team in the land. There is no need to get unduly worried. If we keep dropping points through October we should start to get worried but there's no point in pressing the panic button just now.

Rafa will turn things around.....its only one defeat in six, after all.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:14 pm

JBG wrote:Rafa will turn things around.....its only one defeat in six, after all.

Only one defeat in six but only one win in six aswell JBG. This is the reason that I was gutted after Birmingham, we definately should have won there and 2 wins, 3 draws and 1 defeat sound a lot better than what we have.
Also, I don't think it's pressing the panic button to point out that the 4-5-1 and certain players within it are clearly not functioning just now.

by **JBG** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:21 pm

bigmick wrote:
JBG wrote:Rafa will turn things around.....its only one defeat in six, after all.

Only one defeat in six but only one win in six aswell JBG. This is the reason that I was gutted after Birmingham, we definately should have won there and 2 wins, 3 draws and 1 defeat sound a lot better than what we have.
Also, I don't think it's pressing the panic button to point out that the 4-5-1 and certain players within it are clearly not functioning just now.

I'm trying to see a silver lining.

Last week all was rosy with fans. What has happened since? We have dropped three points to the best team around in our first loss of the season.

I'm not that worried about yesterday. Failing to beat the likes of Fulham and Blackburn in our next couple of games might worry me, however.

by **Gareth G** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:52 pm

To be honest, I'm not worried about the Chelsea game. Obviously we are all gutted that we not only got beat, but got our :censored:

handed to us in a hefty defeat, but I think this could be a blessing in disguise, it will be a kick up the back end that we needed and a reality check that if we slacken off in defense that team's will punish us. I can see only good thing's to come from this, they say you learn from your mistake's, and by God that was one heck of a mistake yesterday, we will become stronger from this for sure.

There's not much missing from our team at present in my opinion, just one or two good quality player's needed. For Hyypia, I don't really blame him for his mistake's. I still think he can do a good solid job for us, but he's at the age where he need's to be rested every so often as he get's tired quicker, I think this showed against Chelsea - at this time we haven't got anyone of his quality ( or near his quality ) to replace him and give him a break.

Walk on.

by **drummerphil** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:12 pm

I,m just waiting for the "we should have sold Gerrard" for 35million brigade and revamped the squad.I,ve already had one on the phone today,with my response being stop talking like a tw@t.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:24 pm

i personally think the 4-5-1 formation won't work here - its too continental. Its works in spain and italy because of the time and space you have in those leagues. Here the game is condensed and frantic (at times). 4-4-2 is a proven system when you look at recent league champions. For the majority Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea all play this formation because it is what is needed to win in england.

When you play in a 'flair' orientated league, such as in spain and italy, Lavish 4-5-1 systems work because there are much more opportunities for midfileders to get goals without being punished for being out of position. Football in england requires a secure formation where goals are scored by 2 forwards working in tandem. Where midfielders get goals but are not expected to provide goals for the team, a 4-5-1 formation puts a lot of emphasis on the goals coming from somewhere other than forwards.

Rafa may make it work and I sincerly do hope it does. I think the formation works well in europe but leave it for europe Rafa - go back to the formation that works

by **76-1115222408** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:34 pm

I actually kinda agree with you here Stu (for once

).
I wont go into detail, as Im busy doing a job application at the moment, but I was saying during the SG transfer saga, that I beleived that Rafa was really willing to let SG go for a number of reasons, and the biggest being Xabi Alonso.

I think Rafa sees Xabi as the KEY to our team (though he hasnt shown it too much this season yet!) and not Steven Gerrard. We played plenty of times last season without him and did well, and whenever he was out Xabi was masterful. For me our season(in the league at least) changed completlely after fat Frank broke Xabis ankle. We just were not the same IMO!!

Now I am not saying I want/wanted SG to go, but I think Rafa wasnt too bothered and YES that money would have been spent well too!!
One thing I have noticed though from SG when WE DO play 2 in the middle and that is he often is too far forward and has to do what so many complain at Djimi for, having to sprint back like a man on fire to make a great recovery tackle, which he would not have had to make if he was in a good position in the first place, and against good teams this will be punished.
And at the risk of being pummeled (as whenever you say something negative about SG normally happens) but there are a lot of times when he is seen clearly strolling on the pitch (let me hasten to add, this is not often) but when he does do it, its almost in the way of 'FFS, I cant be f.ucking bothered chasing, its always me that has to do it all' and there are times where he IS close enough to make a difference if the effort is made, but sometimes it is not. Its just that sometimes I feel as though he is too big for his boots and believes his own hype - but at the same time can we really blame him? Of course not, because more often than not it is him that is the spark, the force and the saviour of the team. Prime example, who scored to take us level yesterday!!

I do think Rafa rates SG, but not as much as he does Xabi, I dont think its a Spanish thing, I just think that he feels that Xabi's game is more complete. This is not necassirily my opinion of the two players, just what I think Rafa thinks.

But I have too noticed Stu, the way that Rafa gives the instructions to Xabi and NOT the Captain.
Maybe part of the problem is tat SG has got us out of trouble so many times by himself, that he probably tries to do too much on the field and this leads to him goin out of position to try and make things happen, I reckon this annoys Rafa.
This could/will be sorted when there are more 'quality' players at our disposal who are capable of winning a game for us, thus taking some of the pressure of SG.

Anyway I was supposed to keep this short, so off i go.............................

by **JC_81** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:08 pm

I think to say that Benitez doesn't trust Gerrard is pretty wide of the mark to be honest. Gerrard is our best attacking player by a mile in my opinion and Benitez isn't stupid, he knows this too.

If Benitez didn't trust him, then why wouldn't he try him in the wide right position? Then Alonso could dictate play in the centre and Gerrard could at least temporarily solve our right mid problem. I know if I didn't trust Gerrard in the middle for tactical reasons or whatever then that's exactly what I would do with him.

Why in the game against United, a massive game for us, would Benitez revert to playing Gerrard as a defensive mid if he didn't trust him? The answer is he wanted to nullify Keane and trusted Gerrard, above all, to do this.

Why in the Champions league final did Benitez put Gerrard on Serginho? He obviously trusted him to mark their most dangerous player at that point out of the game above anyone else.

I will say that Alonso is a more tactically aware player than Gerrard and is probably more likely to understand and carry out instructions, which is why Benitez probably communicates more with him than Gerrard during games. As far as trusting Gerrard, of course Benitez does. He's still our best player, and when he plays well, Liverpool play well.

by **red37** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:14 pm

john craig wrote:I think to say that Benitez doesn't trust Gerrard is pretty wide of the mark to be honest. Gerrard is our best attacking player by a mile in my opinion and Benitez isn't stupid, he knows this too.

If Benitez didn't trust him, then why wouldn't he try him in the wide right position? Then Alonso could dictate play in the centre and Gerrard could at least temporarily solve our right mid problem. I know if I didn't trust Gerrard in the middle for tactical reasons or whatever then that's exactly what I would do with him.

Why in the game against United, a massive game for us, would Benitez revert to playing Gerrard as a defensive mid if he didn't trust him? The answer is he wanted to nullify Keane and trusted Gerrard, above all, to do this.

Why in the Champions league final did Benitez put Gerrard on Serginho? He obviously trusted him to mark their most dangerous player at that point out of the game above anyone else.

I will say that Alonso is a more tactically aware player than Gerrard and is probably more likely to understand and carry out instructions, which is why Benitez probably communicates more with him than Gerrard during games. As far as trusting Gerrard, of course Benitez does. He's still our best player, and when he plays well, Liverpool play well.

spot on

by **Homebooby** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:17 pm

LIVERPOOLANYTIME wrote:I actually kinda agree with you here Stu (for once ).
I wont go into detail, as Im busy doing a job application at the moment, but I was saying during the SG transfer saga, that I beleived that Rafa was really willing to let SG go for a number of reasons, and the biggest being Xabi Alonso.

I think Rafa sees Xabi as the KEY to our team (though he hasnt shown it too much this season yet!) and not Steven Gerrard. We played plenty of times last season without him and did well, and whenever he was out Xabi was masterful. For me our season(in the league at least) changed completlely after fat Frank broke Xabis ankle. We just were not the same IMO!!

Now I am not saying I want/wanted SG to go, but I think Rafa wasnt too bothered and YES that money would have been spent well too!!
One thing I have noticed though from SG when WE DO play 2 in the middle and that is he often is too far forward and has to do what so many complain at Djimi for, having to sprint back like a man on fire to make a great recovery tackle, which he would not have had to make if he was in a good position in the first place, and against good teams this will be punished.
And at the risk of being pummeled (as whenever you say something negative about SG normally happens) but there are a lot of times when he is seen clearly strolling on the pitch (let me hasten to add, this is not often) but when he does do it, its almost in the way of 'FFS, I cant be f.ucking bothered chasing, its always me that has to do it all' and there are times where he IS close enough to make a difference if the effort is made, but sometimes it is not. Its just that sometimes I feel as though he is too big for his boots and believes his own hype - but at the same time can we really blame him? Of course not, because more often than not it is him that is the spark, the force and the saviour of the team. Prime example, who scored to take us level yesterday!!

I do think Rafa rates SG, but not as much as he does Xabi, I dont think its a Spanish thing, I just think that he feels that Xabi's game is more complete. This is not necassirily my opinion of the two players, just what I think Rafa thinks.

But I have too noticed Stu, the way that Rafa gives the instructions to Xabi and NOT the Captain.
Maybe part of the problem is tat SG has got us out of trouble so many times by himself, that he probably tries to do too much on the field and this leads to him goin out of position to try and make things happen, I reckon this annoys Rafa.
This could/will be sorted when there are more 'quality' players at our disposal who are capable of winning a game for us, thus taking some of the pressure of SG.

Anyway I was supposed to keep this short, so off i go.............................

I wouldn't say necessarily that he is too big for his boots, but I will restate what I have said for years that I think that he tries sometimes to do too much and inadversely can be detrimental to the team as well. We all forget still that he is very young still and is learning his trade as all the rest of the team are. Our team would be significantly less without him.

As for what Rafa thinks and Rafa rates, I don't think anyone in the world really knows that other than himself.....that's why I like him.

by **76-1115222408** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:27 pm

You're right, maybe 'too big for his boots' was a little strong, but you know what I mean though, as the rest of your post kinda states, that he CAN be detrimental to the team at times!!

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