Liverpool FC Forum

by **115-1073096938** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:10 pm

As the title said.

You all critisise Gerard after 5 years and spending £114.2m and don't take into account the work he's actually done and put in.

You also don't take into account the money Man Utd and Chelsea are able to spend and you also don't take into account how much LFC are able to spend on a player.

So go for it. How do you build a winning side... how long does it take, what do you do?

by **Starbridge42** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 12:05 pm

Well I've never managed a team in real life so I can only speak for games on comp and ps2. Pick a team, save before each match, only accept the result if you win, buy better players, repeat.

How you'd do it in real life I couldn't honestly say and I don't think anyone here could realisticaly manage a championship winning team. Maybe some could but definately not many.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:47 pm

Checklist for building a winning side:

- Surround yourself with an excellent group of coaches and scouting team who share the same footballing beliefs as you.

- Assemble a squad of players who are ALL technically sound and comfortable on the ball. Ideally 3 to 5 of your first team need to be excellent players (ie. Owen, Hyppia, Gerrard) the rest have to be good players. A mixture of youth and experience with some leaders if possible. The squad should be assembled with chosen playing style in mind.

- Work hard on team play and also with every individual

- Adopt a playing philosophy and impose that philosophy on to the team. Do this well enough and the team will impose that philosophy onto the opposition. Have the conviction to play fluid, attacking football with the emphasis on keeping the football for long periods. Instill a work ethic in the team and do not field players who become passengers when the opposition have possession of the ball (ie. Smicer)

Unfortunately GHs philosophy is all about solid defending and counter-attacking football. It seems that can only take you so far. He has tried to implement a new playing style but does not have the nous to impose it on his team. We do not keep hold of the ball because GH does not seem able to coach this style of play. There is no doubt that some of GHs buys have been shocking but teams like Charlton & Newcastle play better football with inferior teams because of coaching.

- How long would it take? I believe the right man could come in and get us back in the running within 18 months.

by **Redlester** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:28 am

The answer to that is easy 1. It will cost approx £114m - roughly what abramovich spent at chelski and 2. in answer to how it is done - you buy the type of players that Ranieri, Ferguson and Arsenal are prepared to shell out on - you don't spend your money on duds who don't score - if it's as easy as all that how come I know that and Houllier clearly doesn't?

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:29 am

Redlester. He spent that on how many players? Houllier spend the same on 38 players. You have to build a squad. Not a first 11. Houlliers squad cost £114m. Not the odd one or two players.

you'd never make a mistake in the transfer market either.

you should be our next manager.

All managers make mistakes in the transfer market and when you can't spend stupid money on players on a regular basis then the odd one or two aren't going to work out.

by **DAV** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:54 am

STU do u really want Houlier to stay?
Do you also believe he will make us great again?

by **LFC #1** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:40 am

In 00-01 and 01-02 i thought we were back on track in terms of challenging for the title, but we needed to take that extra step which houllier couldn't and can't provide. I think h has been grt for the club but not capable of making us the best team in Enlgand once again (although it's hard to knock off Arsenal at the moment!)

by **JBG** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:23 am

Wenger did it in two years at Arsenal.....but then again Wenger is an exceptional case.

I would say five years. Houllier came very close to building a team that would challenge for honours, but some of his decisions since the summer of 2002 backfired badly and unfortunately he appears to be flogging a dead horse now.

I like Houllier as a man and he is trying his level best to turn things around, but sometimes all the effort and will in the world is simply not enough.

Its a pity as I really thought in 2001 that Houllier was the winning ticket......

by **Starbridge42** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:06 pm

The way I see it, Houllier is not a BAD manager he just isn't the really good manager we need. There isn't anything seriously wrong with him, its just his strengths aren't strong enough to propel us over the line.

by **JBG** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:01 pm

I tend to agree with Starbridge there.

by **Owzat** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:07 pm

DAV wrote:STU do u really want Houlier to stay?
Do you also believe he will make us great again?

Exactly. Houllier didn't have to start from scratch and the money spent is excessive compared to the success achieved. Wenger has done better at Highbury with less spending, Ferguson a lot more even allowing for his lavish spending

Stu - to spend over £100m and be languishing in SIXTH place is a joke, get over yourself and Houllier. Dress it up any way you like, quote as many players as you like, it won't change facts - we have spent over £100m to win four second rate trophies and miss out on CL football

NOT GOOD ENOUGH

by **JBG** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:49 pm

Exactly.

I know some people have a valid point when they say that we should stop harping back to the glory days of Paisley and Shankly, but even if you compare the situation now at Liverpool with the relative success Houllier himself achieved in 2001 and 2002 you cannot justify Houllier's current position.

Not only does Houllier look bad compared to former Liverpool greats, he also compares badly with his own achievements of two years ago.

Even if we had finished third last season and again this time (which obviously won't happen!) people would be justified in criticising Houllier as even that kind of finish would represent stagnation and under achievement.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 3:35 pm

Owzat wrote:
DAV wrote:STU do u really want Houlier to stay?
Do you also believe he will make us great again?

Exactly. Houllier didn't have to start from scratch and the money spent is excessive compared to the success achieved. Wenger has done better at Highbury with less spending, Ferguson a lot more even allowing for his lavish spending

Stu - to spend over £100m and be languishing in SIXTH place is a joke, get over yourself and Houllier. Dress it up any way you like, quote as many players as you like, it won't change facts - we have spent over £100m to win four second rate trophies and miss out on CL football

NOT GOOD ENOUGH

I disagree. Houllier had to more or less build form scratch, We were in serious decline under Roy Evans, we were standing still and everyone else was moving on, he coulden't accomadate change. Houllier came in and had a fantastic three years were he took us further than I expected. But he has failed to take us to that next level, whether he sould be given another year to try and get things back on track is a very diffucult question to answer.

by **JBG** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:33 pm

I'm not sure Houllier HAD to start from scratch after Evans but he choose to do so. Of course, there was a lot of dead wood and he needed to sort out the Spice Boys, but he decided that for better or for worse he needed to rip everything up and start again.

In fairness to Houllier it worked like a dream for three years and some of the players he brought in were very successful.

However, his attempts to build on his own early success has been entirely unsuccessful and despite all his best efforts (and he is trying his best) I simply get the feeling that he is flogging a dead horse and the club and team could do with a new manager with fresh ideas and a new outlook.

Maybe a new guy could come in and try to start all over again, but for all of Houllier's problems and faults, he will at least leave the new guy in charge with a lot of decent players. Aside from signing three or four new guys, I think the team would benefit from fresh leadership rather than an entire re-building.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:41 pm

Wenger did it in two years at Arsenal.....but then again Wenger is an exceptional case.

I would say five years. Houllier came very close to building a team that would challenge for honours, but some of his decisions since the summer of 2002 backfired badly and unfortunately he appears to be flogging a dead horse now.

I like Houllier as a man and he is trying his level best to turn things around, but sometimes all the effort and will in the world is simply not enough.

Its a pity as I really thought in 2001 that Houllier was the winning ticket......

Correct me if i'm wrong JBG but didn't wenger inherrit one of the best defensive units in the last 100 years in english football? didn't he also inherrit a hard working "typicall english midfielder" (parlour) and also Ian Wright and at the time one of the worlds best players in Dennis Bergkamp? It took him 4-5 years before it really became his team.

Your attitude here sounds like you still aren't 100% sure he isn't the right man. For me i go along with what you say... untill 2002 everything was great... then came the bad signings. We had a great start then faded badly and never really looked like getting back to our best and haven't for a while. but i still believe he knows what he's doing. I still believe he can take us back to at least the position we were in while he had his illness and i believe his past success's should earn him more respect than it does.

Exactly. Houllier didn't have to start from scratch and the money spent is excessive compared to the success achieved. Wenger has done better at Highbury with less spending, Ferguson a lot more even allowing for his lavish spending

Stu - to spend over £100m and be languishing in SIXTH place is a joke, get over yourself and Houllier. Dress it up any way you like, quote as many players as you like, it won't change facts - we have spent over £100m to win four second rate trophies and miss out on CL football

NOT GOOD ENOUGH

Biggest pile of bulshit i've ever read.

Houllier inherrited three prospects Owen, Carragher and Murphy. He inherrited a player who was leaving on a bosman and he inherrited a striker who was more obbsessed with coccaine than being what he could have been.

He inherrited a squad of dead wood basically. As for the money spent being excessive thats bullsh#t. Look at Chelsea and Man Utds spending. It takes years to build a great side unless you can do it all in one go. He can't afford to go and buy 11 first team players at once and there will be times he makes the odd costly (in financial terms) mistake... IE Diouf.

As i said earlier... Wenger only had to sign 4 class players. I'm not dissing his work here by the way... i think what he's done is terrific but i'm saying he's had an easier job than Gerard.

As for second rate trophies... thats just absoloute cr#p. Look at Djorkaeffs reaction to not winning the league cup and he's won the friggin world cup. Anyone who says they are second rate and don't mean anything aren't real football fans. If i had 1 europian supercup winners medal i'd be made up. granted they aren't as good as the league title and champions league but they are still amazing acheivements.

Exactly.

I know some people have a valid point when they say that we should stop harping back to the glory days of Paisley and Shankly, but even if you compare the situation now at Liverpool with the relative success Houllier himself achieved in 2001 and 2002 you cannot justify Houllier's current position.

Not only does Houllier look bad compared to former Liverpool greats, he also compares badly with his own achievements of two years ago.

Even if we had finished third last season and again this time (which obviously won't happen!) people would be justified in criticising Houllier as even that kind of finish would represent stagnation and under achievement.

His last two years have been sh##e by his own standards. This one down to injury more than anything else. Anyone who can't admit we've had an abnormal run of injuries is insane. Anyone who thinks this doesn't have an affect on the performances and confience is also insane. Last season there wasn't really an excuse for apart from everyone makes mistakes.

Your point about him not reaching his own high standards though.... how many titles did shankley win in 15 years? 3 was it? didn't he finish 5th one season after winning one aswell? He also said from the start at some point we would stagnate and there would be a period which we would not appear to be moving forward.

Houllier deserves a chance. Next season is the time to judge weather he is really upto it or not.

To be honest he is never going to take us below this position and i honestly don't believe he'll ruin LFC either even though some idiots will tell you this. I am willing to give him next season to show he can turn things around and have full faith he will. If not then i hold my hands up and say i was wrong... but i have serious belief if he has the chance to stay next season he'll grab it with both hands.

I'm not sure Houllier HAD to start from scratch after Evans but he choose to do so. Of course, there was a lot of dead wood and he needed to sort out the Spice Boys, but he decided that for better or for worse he needed to rip everything up and start again.

In fairness to Houllier it worked like a dream for three years and some of the players he brought in were very successful.

However, his attempts to build on his own early success has been entirely unsuccessful and despite all his best efforts (and he is trying his best) I simply get the feeling that he is flogging a dead horse and the club and team could do with a new manager with fresh ideas and a new outlook.

Maybe a new guy could come in and try to start all over again, but for all of Houllier's problems and faults, he will at least leave the new guy in charge with a lot of decent players. Aside from signing three or four new guys, I think the team would benefit from fresh leadership rather than an entire re-building.

Lets be honest JBG... apart from a few kids and one or two decent coaches... what else did he have? He did have to rip it all up and start again. Ruddock, Scales, Babb, Wright, Barnes, Redknapp, Ince, McManaman (soon to leave) James, McAteer.

Besides new managers always do things there own way. They buy the players that suit there system. Its rare a manager will change his philosiphies to fit the players he has. In fact it hardly ever happens which is what was classy about the way wenger done it at arsenal. He built a side around what he already had then made it his own be replacing the older players... Houllier has had to start from scratch basically so he couldn't do this.

I think you generally do make some interesting points and i really can see where you are coming from. I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of it i can promise you that. I am not writing this to have a go... i just think you are being premature and a bit hasty.

I think if you look at it realistically though. A new manager isn't going to want to build on Houlliers success unless he is Liverpool through and through and i feel that Houllier has build serious foundations. Maybe the team does need new leadership... i am not blind enough to suggest its all rosey and nothing is wrong... there are serious faults and there have been serious mistakes... but there have also been great moments, we have great players, we've produced great players and we still have potential. The manager knows we need a new top class striker and his intrest in Malbranque and Boumsong suggest to me he knows we need to strengthen these two area's of the team. He's identified the right players aswell in my opinion so that shows to me he hasn't totally finished yet. Its not as bad as some people will have us believe.... can you honestly say that with a NORMAL run of injuries we would be where we are now? Personally i think we'd comfortabley be in fourth... maybe 4 or 5 points off chelsea and Man Utd instead of the 19 which it is now... which still isn't great... but its a base from which to improve on. And with him recognising the correct improvements i feel we would close this gap and improve the squad leaving us in a stronger position should we get the same injuries again. Imo he deserves one last season...

If after that it doesn't work out then maybe its time for Thommo to be given a go. If not Thommo the only other man is Dalglish but he's been out of the game for 5 years or more so its questionable as to weather he still has what it takes.

I think after what he's done for our club he deserves more than one or two chances. We've been close to being an amazing side once before... and i firmly believe he can get us to at least that level once again.

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