Liverpool FC Forum

by **woof woof !** » Wed May 18, 2005 3:28 pm

Never thought we'd get this far in the Champions League and like the rest of us I'm totally made up . I do however look back to when we were within' minutes of going out of the competition to Olympiakos and wonder has our progress in the Champions League blinded us to the failure of our team and Rafa in the premiership ? I know that may sound a bit blasphemous to some in this forum but surely a sign of real progress is not a bit of fortune in a knock out competition ?

I know it's early day's for Rafa ,first season in the prem etc etc but some of our performances have been abysmal to say the least ,Southampton,Burnley,Crystal Palace and so on, just as we praise a mgr when he get's it right we should also retain some objectivity when he gets it wrong . I like the man and if we win the CL will be dancing with the rest of yer ,but when I sober up I'll still be thinking "can Rafa get us into the the top 3 in the prem next season ? "

Your thoughts

by **jonnymac1979** » Wed May 18, 2005 3:31 pm

I think this was a bedding in season for all involved, new manager, some new players, and the existing demoralised players had to get used to these new characters at Anfield.

Now we are in the Champions League final, and are in a fantastic chance of winning it, we should now have the funds and reputation to start attracting some top class players to the club. I believe that Rafa is the man to do it. He is an astute student of the game. He will succeed.

by **woof woof !** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:12 pm

Appreciate the comment Jmac , you say he's "an astute student of the game" ,he's certainly proved that in euro competition but I guess the jury is still out when it comes to the premiership , also ,lets face it, his spanish signings have been a bit hit and miss , Alonso ? ,class. Garcia ? ,now (at last) proving himself . Morientes ? arrived with a deserved reputation but so far

hasn't lived up to it .
Nunez ? Josemi ? Pellegrino ? . Do you miss them when they're not playing ? . I don't .

by **Erica** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:14 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Never thought we'd get this far in the Champions League and like the rest of us I'm totally made up . I do however look back to when we were within' minutes of going out of the competition to Olympiakos and wonder has our progress in the Champions League blinded us to the failure of our team and Rafa in the premiership ? I know that may sound a bit blasphemous to some in this forum but surely a sign of real progress is not a bit of fortune in a knock out competition ?

I know it's early day's for Rafa ,first season in the prem etc etc but some of our performances have been abysmal to say the least ,Southampton,Burnley,Crystal Palace and so on, just as we praise a mgr when he get's it right we should also retain some objectivity when he gets it wrong . I like the man and if we win the CL will be dancing with the rest of yer ,but when I sober up I'll still be thinking "can Rafa get us into the the top 3 in the prem next season ? "

Your thoughts

I like your reflections and you are right in many ways. But you must consider the money and the injuries that Rafa and the staff has had to make a new team. Our funds are not the best in the world. The striker we thought would score many goals for us (Cisse) got injured most of the season, and for example Milan Baros or Dudek are OK but you cannot compare them with the keeper of Chelsea or Buffon and Shevchenko. Despite all those drawbacks we are in the final of the CL, and outside England that makes Liverpool more famous that if we had won the Premiership. What we have to do is winning that final, selling players who are OK but not outstanding (Dudek, Baros) and then having money to get real good players. Josemi, Nuñez, Pellegrino, Dudek...were cheap players to buy, but they cannot play in a team who want to win everything. Ciao

by **Erica** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:20 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Appreciate the comment Jmac , you say he's "an astute student of the game" ,he's certainly proved that in euro competition but I guess the jury is still out when it comes to the premiership , also ,lets face it, his spanish signings have been a bit hit and miss , Alonso ? ,class. Garcia ? ,now (at last) proving himself . Morientes ? arrived with a deserved reputation but so far hasn't lived up to it .
Nunez ? Josemi ? Pellegrino ? . Do you miss them when they're not playing ? . I don't .

If the chairman tells you. Ok Rafa you have this little money to buy three, four players to complete the team. Then with that little money you bring Nuñez, Pellegrino and Josemi; but if the chairman tells you. OK Rafa we have plenty of money to spend on good players, buy three real class players from Spain, then he would get Vicente or Joaquín, Puyol or Xabi, Torres...It is as simple as that.

by **lawrenson_sarah** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:54 pm

ok we havent really had that good a season have we?

What is to blame for this i dont think is Rafa...
We had a few injuries to vital players to key first team players
such as Xavi Alonso (broken ankle) n Djibril Cisse (broken leg)

An i think given a chance Rafa will do right by Liverpool an put em on the up!!!

by **woof woof !** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:54 pm

Erica wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:Appreciate the comment Jmac , you say he's "an astute student of the game" ,he's certainly proved that in euro competition but I guess the jury is still out when it comes to the premiership , also ,lets face it, his spanish signings have been a bit hit and miss , Alonso ? ,class. Garcia ? ,now (at last) proving himself . Morientes ? arrived with a deserved reputation but so far hasn't lived up to it .
Nunez ? Josemi ? Pellegrino ? . Do you miss them when they're not playing ? . I don't .

If the chairman tells you. Ok Rafa you have this little money to buy three, four players to complete the team. Then with that little money you bring Nuñez, Pellegrino and Josemi; but if the chairman tells you. OK Rafa we have plenty of money to spend on good players, buy three real class players from Spain, then he would get Vicente or Joaquín, Puyol or Xabi, Torres...It is as simple as that.

If only life was that simple .
i.e "I can only afford to eat sh'it so that;s what I'll buy ".

.
Personally I'd rather go hungry and save my money until i could afford a proper meal .

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:57 pm

We failed in the Premiership this season, but not getting 4th spot was not exactly a shock to me. I said to my mate (not a Liverpool fan) who thought we would get in the top three back in August that I think we have a real battle to get 4th spot, were not hugely better than the clubs competing with us, we are better but not by much, plus we have a new manager coming in from a different country who doesn’t speak the language very well, we lost 3 of our biggest performers (Owen, Murphy and Heskey), players we really looked to, plus no established goal scorer, new players from outside the league.

But most of all I said I had reservation about Rafa style of play at Valencia, they were the kings of the 1-0 victory, especially away from home, and the slower tempo game and always keeping it on the floor, was not really what has bought success to English teams over recent years.

Although we have played a better style of football than I originally thought we would, I still think it is too 1 dimensional, while keeping it on the floor and keeping possion is the best way to play, it will not always be the most effective. Sometimes we look like a bunch of pussys trying to play fancy football while our opposition are bullying us out of the ball and using the route 1 way and being more effective. I personally would have no problem if we were to use a more physical and long ball approach were it is clear that the fancy stuff is not working, also we don't really use the counter attack very well, when we win the ball in our own half, we don’t have many runners getting beyond the person on the ball. Were too 1 dimensional on the moment Chelsea tried it at the beginning of the season, but Mourinho soon realised that they will have to have more in their armoury that just being able to pass the ball well.

But saying that, Rafa is entitled to be given time to learn about the Premier League. I hope that next season we will be able to mix our style of play up a bit more in the Premiership. Too be honest we have made very little progress in the league, and that is a true measure of progression and success. Next year I don't think we can break into the top three, a lot of people think that Man Utd are finished, they are fools, and will be eating their humble pie this time next season. Our aim next season should be to establish ourselves as the undoubted best of the rest and close the gap on the top three, a points total of 70 is a reasoble and achievable target.

If I had the choice between winning the Champions League or the Premiership, I would choose the league with out a doubt. Winning the Champions League does not really mean as much if you don't win your domestic league. Winning them together gives you the right to really call your selves Champions. Lest be honest, if we do win the Champions League, will we be the best team in Europe, even in the top 5, NO.

by **Erica** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:59 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Erica wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:Appreciate the comment Jmac , you say he's "an astute student of the game" ,he's certainly proved that in euro competition but I guess the jury is still out when it comes to the premiership , also ,lets face it, his spanish signings have been a bit hit and miss , Alonso ? ,class. Garcia ? ,now (at last) proving himself . Morientes ? arrived with a deserved reputation but so far hasn't lived up to it .
Nunez ? Josemi ? Pellegrino ? . Do you miss them when they're not playing ? . I don't .

If the chairman tells you. Ok Rafa you have this little money to buy three, four players to complete the team. Then with that little money you bring Nuñez, Pellegrino and Josemi; but if the chairman tells you. OK Rafa we have plenty of money to spend on good players, buy three real class players from Spain, then he would get Vicente or Joaquín, Puyol or Xabi, Torres...It is as simple as that.

If only life was that simple .
i.e "I can only afford to eat sh'it so that;s what I'll buy ". .
Personally I'd rather go hungry and save my money until i could afford a proper meal .

lol. But at least you have a good sense of humour, and that cannot be bought with money.

by **lawrenson_sarah** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:59 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:If I had the choice between winning the Champions League or the Premiership, I would choose the league with out a doubt. Winning the Champions League does not really mean as much if you don't win your domestic league. Winning them together gives you the right to really call your selves Champions. Lest be honest, if we do win the Champions League, will we be the best team in Europe, even in the top 5, NO.

Yer i see what ur sayin but the getting in the Champions league final gives the club recognition an a lot more popularity to it than in the league table.

:shifty

by **taff** » Wed May 18, 2005 5:05 pm

Progression after the Olympiakos game has the other side that the league has probably suffered because of this. Rafa showed us his views on the FA cup and where it stand in his list of priorities.

I think he knows more about European football but has learnt a lot about English football.

I think overall the league form is dissapointing but not surprising either. He joined us late on but inherited a squad with problems and to be honest a lot of cracks that had been papered over. He did not have a great pre season and has been doing on the job learning. Losing Owen and the SG saga has not helped either.

I do however have huge faith in him.

His personality and the way he conducts himself.
He bought Morientes knowing he was cup tied, so he is thinking long term and how will we be playing next season

He wants to start pre season early to get the fitness and tactics so we play the exact way he wants

Pellegrino. Ok maybe past it but purchased for attitude and knowledge. This is a brave move that shows his nerve for long term gains.

Not scared to get rid of anybody that doesnt fit in with him. As in a previous thread I have a wonderful feeling that HK and SG are buying in to the Rafalution. RB has said that if players cannot adopt to him then maybe the player not the style should leave.

Look at JC.

I'd say overall dissapointing, but regardless of CL Im a hell of a lot more optimistic now in 5th than I was in 4th last year

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed May 18, 2005 5:16 pm

But saying that (my first post), it has really been hard for Rafa to get the club moving. There is so much uncertainty that needs to be resolved.

- The Chairman, he either needs to say his staying for the long term, or sell it on to someone who is going to be around for the long term.

- The stadium - it still seems to be up in the air, we were told that it would be ready for the 07/08 season, continued speculation about ground sharing, soaring costs, the sooner work begins the better.

- Gerrard, he really p.i.s.s.e.d me off in the summer, who the fu(k do you think you are demanding that we sign 5 world class players, then setting up to leave and then staying. Either sign a new contract or leave, let Rafa do his job in peace.

Another problem is the huge amount of players we have on our books, I'm sure at one point it was close to 45 and most these players are not even contributing to the team, there either out on loan or not good enough and we have to pay their wages, this has seriously stopped Rafa getting the ball rolling, we could blame Houllier all day long, but the board have been seriously incompetent in letting our squad get so big and letting the wage bill become so unsustainable.

It has been a real tough season for Rafa, so many things are not right, hopefully we can resolve all this uncertainty, and he can get the ball rolling next season.

by **woof woof !** » Wed May 18, 2005 5:18 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:We failed in the Premiership this season, but not getting 4th spot was not exactly a shock to me. we lost 3 of our biggest performers (Owen, Murphy and Heskey), players we really looked to,

Heskey and Murphy ran of with Nellie the Elephant and joined the circus ! (As most of us hoped they would )

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed May 18, 2005 5:23 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:We failed in the Premiership this season, but not getting 4th spot was not exactly a shock to me. we lost 3 of our biggest performers (Owen, Murphy and Heskey), players we really looked to,

Heskey and Murphy ran of with Nellie the Elephant and joined the circus ! (As most of us hoped they would )

They were still first teamers, and both new the Premier League inside out. But both were big earners aswell.

I was reading the annual report and it said that the wage bill had got out of control and that is one the reasons we had to loan out all those players.

We have already seen 5 players leave, Smicer is going, Diouf looks sat to follow, and I wouldent be surprised if another 7/8 or even more go.

by **woof woof !** » Wed May 18, 2005 5:33 pm

,
Ok Cool Hand ,I'm just still puzzeld over how you equate Heskey and Murphy's departure with our failure to secure a top four finish in the prem.

Liverpool FC Forum

Don't wanna rain on rafa's parade but ....... - Cl aside how good r we .

Who is online