Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:19 am

I'm going to annoy the socks off everyone here, but run with it and tell me what you think. Does it devalue the Champions League if we win it? You read it correct, and in all honesty what is the answer?
See I've always believed in the old "Champions Cup" format. You've got to be the Champions just to get in the thing, never mind win it. We won it four times and but for an unspeakable catastrophe would probably have won it five. The current TV fest' and financial orgy is entirely the creation of the big clubs and the governing body and bears no relation to an actual "Champions League". Now last year Porto were clearly nowhere near to being the best team in Europe, and forgive me but neither are we even if we win it.
Wenger has come out and said this week (and I know that he's a lying ponce), that for him the Premiership is now the priority as there's too much luck involved in winning the CL. I don't know about luck, but if UEFA are serious then they are probably going to have to go towards a League system, not just in the group stages but in the whole thing if they are to give the thing maximum credability. This however would mean more games and a probable rduction in the domestic programme which I would be opposed to.
Before I get absolutely hung and slaughtered here let me say, I REALLY REALLY WANT US TO WIN IT!!! There's probably just part of me that hankers back to the days when we WERE the best team in Europe and winning the European Cup was just our means of proving it.
As a final point, there's actually a beautiful symmetry to the whole thing if you think about it. We have been the most successful team of modern times in the competition, winning it in the hardest format of all to prevail on numerous occasions. Now the whole thing has been bastardized into the present system, we come along with a team which is manefestly inferior to our best ones, win it and keep the trophy. Who after all is better qualified than LFC to demonstrate to UEFA and to tell it in no uncertain terms that money isn't everything and the tinkering isn't always an improvement. The governing bodies run the risk of destroying the heart and sole of a competition when messing about with it. Once broken it can never be fixed. To quote Wenger again, he said yesterday that finishing second in the Prem was more important than winning the FA Cup final. Now disregarding the comic contradiction for a second, it just shows how a once great competition can be ruined.

by **andy_g** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:45 am

i can see your point mick but i don't really go with the idea. i remember hearing someone say yesterday that someone (wenger?) had said that us getting to the CLl final was like 'doing a millwall' - while inititally angered by this i though in the end ok, fair comment - but only in the context that we're realistically an average team whos made it through a combination of sporadically good performances and a little luck. despite all this we are there on merit as would be any team, be it juve, barca or olympiakos.

if a cup competition could be devalued by an unfancied team winning it then it undermines the whole idea of cup competitions. in that case the FA cup might only be open to the previous 4 winners to make sure that only a 'deserving' team can win it and justify it as a great competition.

i'm sure that if/when we win it we will be subject to a barrage of press saying how we don't deserve it, how we've made a mockery of the cup, how we can't possibly be allowed to devalue it further by having the temerity to want to defend it etc etc. but for me this all serves to support one of the greatest things about the game of football - it can go t!ts up at any time and throw up the greatest surprises and upsets.

by **stmichael** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:53 am

bigmick wrote:Wenger has come out and said this week (and I know that he's a lying ponce), that for him the Premiership is now the priority as there's too much luck involved in winning the CL.

wenger's just saying that because benitez has been here less than a year and he's already achieved what he hasn't done in nine years. arsenal are pants in europe.

you make your own luck in football. it's about time we got some. we've conceded SIX goals in twelve champions league games this season, and two of them were goalkeeping blunders, so we're there on merit.

but i agree with you about the current system. if you ask me, the competition should be cut to sixteen teams anyway. how can next years winners claim to be the real champions league winners if we never lost it in the fist place?

madness. :angry:

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:55 am

I think there is a compromise somewhere in the middle between this format and the old one. When you can get all the way to the final playing league winners from crappy leagues, it is far from perfect.

by **Sean** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:05 pm

We've beaten Juve and Chelsea and please god will beat Milan. How can anybody even suggest that we don't deserve the cup after that.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:23 pm

Leon, you can get the final these days without playing a team thats won anything...

The point is, it should only ever be the league WINNERS and champions league WINNERS that qualify.

Out of the league and euro cup, i'd rather win the league if i'm honest.

Before the changes were made, you'd have to win the league to be in the euro cup, so at that point i'd have rather won the europian cup.

by **Roger Red Hat** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:28 pm

Back to the original format for me. Domestic League winners onlt to enter it, rename it back the The European Cup and have it a straight 2 leg knockout format again.

Stop ar$ing about with stuff UEFA.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:59 pm

Lee J,

I don't disagree with the current league format. I think its a good idea as it gets rid of most of the poor sides.

If it was down to me i'd do it like this.

8 mini leagues. (no qualifying round).

England, Spain, Italy and Germany have 1st seeded sides.
Holland, Portugal, France and champions league winners (or greece) have second seeded sides.

The rest thrown in, top two go through into the last 16 and thats where it becomes a knockout.

The chamions league would consist of champions and CL winners.

The Uefa cup (add some value to it again). 2nd, 3rd and 4th from the leagues.

Then, for the fa cup winners, bring back the cup winners cup.

by **Fowler_E7** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:09 pm

stu_the_red wrote:Lee J,

I don't disagree with the current league format. I think its a good idea as it gets rid of most of the poor sides.

If it was down to me i'd do it like this.

8 mini leagues. (no qualifying round).

England, Spain, Italy and Germany have 1st seeded sides.
Holland, Portugal, France and champions league winners (or greece) have second seeded sides.

The rest thrown in, top two go through into the last 16 and thats where it becomes a knockout.

The chamions league would consist of champions and CL winners.

The Uefa cup (add some value to it again). 2nd, 3rd and 4th from the leagues.

Then, for the fa cup winners, bring back the cup winners cup.

so what countrys would the other 24 teams come from? cyprus, lithuania, finland? if you only had league winners the competition would have some terrible teams playing from some of europes weakest leagues.

by **Big Niall** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:41 pm

If we want the best team in Europe to be European champions then we have to have a league. I'd love a mid week European league with the league champions only from the major 8 countries and may smaller countries play two remaining places. 10 teams home and away is 18 games, no more than we have now.

There'd have to be something done though so that teams way off the pace have something to play for(maybe automatic UEFA spot if finish in top half)

by **7_Kewell** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:47 pm

Wenger makes me laugh....yes we have been average in the league but we HAVE played some superb football against some of the biggest teams in Europe! Wenger is spouting sour grapes because, as someone said, Rafa has achieved Wengers dream of Champions league sucess! How long has Rafa been here? 9 months? maybe 10.....imagine what he'll do after this season, Wenger is a man whose scared because there is a new football force coming!

Move aside :censored:

Wenger liverpool are coming through and we are taking the European cup with us
:talktothehand

by **JBG** » Mon May 09, 2005 4:50 pm

I think its pointless arguing about it as it'll never happen.

Go back to the league winners and I guarantee the G14 would break away from UEFA and form a super league. Liverpool would be one of the first clubs to lead the breakaway.

I preferred the old format but I also liked Baywatch and the A-team, sadly both canned. :angry:

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Mon May 09, 2005 6:59 pm

bigmick wrote:I'm going to annoy the socks off everyone here, but run with it and tell me what you think. Does it devalue the Champions League if we win it? You read it correct, and in all honesty what is the answer?
See I've always believed in the old "Champions Cup" format. You've got to be the Champions just to get in the thing, never mind win it. We won it four times and but for an unspeakable catastrophe would probably have won it five. The current TV fest' and financial orgy is entirely the creation of the big clubs and the governing body and bears no relation to an actual "Champions League". Now last year Porto were clearly nowhere near to being the best team in Europe, and forgive me but neither are we even if we win it.
Wenger has come out and said this week (and I know that he's a lying ponce), that for him the Premiership is now the priority as there's too much luck involved in winning the CL. I don't know about luck, but if UEFA are serious then they are probably going to have to go towards a League system, not just in the group stages but in the whole thing if they are to give the thing maximum credability. This however would mean more games and a probable rduction in the domestic programme which I would be opposed to.
Before I get absolutely hung and slaughtered here let me say, I REALLY REALLY WANT US TO WIN IT!!! There's probably just part of me that hankers back to the days when we WERE the best team in Europe and winning the European Cup was just our means of proving it.
As a final point, there's actually a beautiful symmetry to the whole thing if you think about it. We have been the most successful team of modern times in the competition, winning it in the hardest format of all to prevail on numerous occasions. Now the whole thing has been bastardized into the present system, we come along with a team which is manefestly inferior to our best ones, win it and keep the trophy. Who after all is better qualified than LFC to demonstrate to UEFA and to tell it in no uncertain terms that money isn't everything and the tinkering isn't always an improvement. The governing bodies run the risk of destroying the heart and sole of a competition when messing about with it. Once broken it can never be fixed. To quote Wenger again, he said yesterday that finishing second in the Prem was more important than winning the FA Cup final. Now disregarding the comic contradiction for a second, it just shows how a once great competition can be ruined.

man u qualified through second place the year they won it, did they devalue the cup?
the competition is set up in such a way as to squeeze as much money out of the general public, sponsors and t.v company`s as possible. in the old format there`s not enough games for uefa`s accountants liking.
but if we win it we deserve it, teams like juventus, chelsea and ultimately milan had (or have) a chance to prove that we didnt or dont deserve it. we might not be the most consistent side but on our day we are a very good side, best in europe maybe? we`ll find out.

by **zarababe** » Mon May 09, 2005 7:12 pm

.. in all honesty this is the "UEFA Super League".. not Champions League.. if you remember the idea of a "European Super League" was touted some years before the CL came along.. at that time a lot of the FA's were against it because of the impact on the domestic leagues...

...why have 4 teams from the main nations.. ? (five when we win on 25/05

) .. well because it serves the purpose of attracting money, audiences and the best players.. Europe has the monoploy on the worlds talent.. in a nutshell "European Super League".. hey presto FA's all duped in to doing what they said they did not want.. (well almost)

.. we have triumphed in a competition designed to pit the top 4/5 teams of the Eureopan eiltes, against each other.. we are there on merit ... and the likelyhood of us having the right to defend our title and gain top seed status.. proves that as Champions ... UEFA can not afford for their competition to be devalued..

by **Santa** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:45 pm

When Denmark (whos entry at the 11th hours was due to disqualification of Yugoslavia) and Greece (who never previously won a match at the competition) won the European Championship, does it devalue the competition in anyway? When Korea and Turkey entered the semis of the last world cup, are they any less deserving a team to be in that position? The point is deserve has got nothing to do with it.
When you have to beat teams like Monaco, Bayer Leverkusen, Juventus, Chelsea and AC Milan to win the CL, you deserve to be champion. Otherwise, UEFA might as well stipulate that teams that don't win their domestic league respectively are there to make up the numbers, and not expected (eligible) to progress beyond the quarter-finals.

For sentimental reason, I still prefers the old format as it gives more weight and prestige to the UEFA cup, but at the same time it would be less lucrative to the European Cup winner. Football moves on...money and sponsors now runs the game. We entered the competition by qualifying on merit through our league position and nothing the sour grape Wegner and his bunch of European underachievers said could make me think otherwise.

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