Liverpool FC Forum

by **Iceman69** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:29 am

Hello, a newcomer here. but not a newcomer to serious debate!

Just noticed looking at the league table that we are something like 20+ points behind chelsea and have lost 10 or so games. Injuries or not, you have to say that is shocking for a club like LFC. Stevie G's face has been touching the floor since New year, and signs are he isn't himself and could well be off. Not to mention Traore and Biscan still here after most fans wanted them in the same taxi as Houllier.

Some people are saying that this is a "transitional" season, new manager/ new personnel etc etc. But as far as pride goes, and the financial incentives for making champions league football etc etc. you have to say it is just as important as last season.

I mean, whats the point of having a stronger team next season, morientes elligable for the CL next year, but we don't get there this season? I think Rafa is playing a dangerous game. Especially if Everton get there ahead of us, which I wouldnt like but is possible! whats the reaction gonna be?

Harry Kewell is back soon...is that supposed to cheer us up?
Thats a hinderance not a bonus if you ask me.

I think the reason we are falling so far behind Chelsea and the rest has nothing to do with money. Its about buying the RIGHT PLAYERS!
People keep saying, chelsea loadsamoney this, loadsamoney that etc. We've had their kinda money to spend. and we keep buying muppets with it! Josemi, Nunez (ok part of owen deal), Pellegrino, garcia. Im not convinced, that they can make us great.
We've had injuries ok, but so does every team. Only alonso really has been missed if u ask me.

I remember watching the euros in 2004 and thinking Arjen Robben was a hidden gem, and that we should have snapped him up! the same goes for Damien duff, when chelsea were stalling over paying 17m for him. we should have been straight in. Jermaine pennant too on a loan deal would have been a valuble addition.

Those 3 players in our midfield with Stevie G, and your already looking at a top 2/3 side at least, and a lot closer to the top points wise. Look at the effect they have had at chelsea this season. That could have been lfc.

doesn't matter really what viewpoint you have on the situation, basically..................
You can either play the game or you can't!

Someone tell Rafa, Honeymoon is over!

by **A.B.** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:44 am

spend. and we keep buying muppets with it! Josemi, Nunez (ok part of owen deal), Pellegrino, garcia. Im not convinced, that they can make us great

Nunez = free
Pellegrino = free[only here for six months]
Garcia = remember Pires? Garcia has already scored more goals in his first season than Pires did in his first season at Arsenal.
Which just leaves Josemi who was worth 2.5 million who can still prove himself.

I remember watching the euros in 2004 and thinking Arjen Robben was a hidden gem, and that we should have snapped him up! the same goes for Damien duff, when chelsea were stalling over paying 17m for him. we should have been straight in. Jermaine pennant too on a loan deal would have been a valuble addition.

Houllier had a chance to sign Duff and he didn't. Robben was injured and that was a risk Chelsea took which payed off for the most part.

Pennant? Just because he played well against us doesn't mean that he's a World Class player otherwise Heskey would be in that category as well. Pennant could also be facing jail time.

We've had injuries ok, but so does every team. Only alonso really has been missed if u ask me.

Name a team other than us that has had 16 players injured. Alonso may be the only one missed but when you have injured players in a squad that is already thin you have to play players out of position and play players that you don't want to play normaly. i.e. Biscan

When Finnan was injured Carra had to be shifted to RB and we had to bring in Pelle who had no match fitness,no experience with the Premiership,hardly knew his team-mates and play him in three crucial games.

Up front Baros has had four different strike partners:
-Cisse,Pongolle,Mellor and now Morientes. He's had to try to gel with every one of those players because of injuries.

The central midfield looked solid at the very begining of the season as we had Alonso and Gerrard but we didn't take into account that both players could get injured and that we would be stuck with Hamann and Biscan.

Harry Kewell is back soon...is that supposed to cheer us up

If he continues to play like he did before he got injured, thats a plus to me. He was slowly getting back into form as he had 3 assists and a goal before getting injured again.

As much as I like Riise scoring he's too one dimensional on the wing, he can only do so much where as Kewell has the ability to dribble with the ball, get past through players and not hesitate to use his right foot. All he has to do is gain his confidence, he already has the talent and ability.

You can either play the game or you can't!

Fair enough, however consider that 80 percent of our squad are used to hoofing the ball to Michael Owen and expecting him to score. We were hardly playing as a team before Rafa got here, our game was revolved too much between certain individuals and you can't last very long playing football like that as it is a team game.

I am not trying to make execuses but this has to be pointed out because some easily forget it. Like the fact that Benitez has only been here for six or seven months, the way some are reacting you would think that he's been here for five years.

Benitez has a huge task and all credit to him for taking such a huge task [Mourinho could had taken the same task here as he was approached by us for the job but he went to Chelsea where he was guaranteed that he could buy anyone he wanted].

by **el_stinger** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:12 am

AB, once again, you have a wealth of knowledge and wisdom, and to newbies like this one, take a leaf out of AB's book mate, its not all negative.

by **chiggz_likes_owen** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:48 am

Haha nice effort A.B.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:39 am

A.B. wrote:
spend. and we keep buying muppets with it! Josemi, Nunez (ok part of owen deal), Pellegrino, garcia. Im not convinced, that they can make us great

Nunez = free
Pellegrino = free[only here for six months]
Garcia = remember Pires? Garcia has already scored more goals in his first season than Pires did in his first season at Arsenal.
Which just leaves Josemi who was worth 2.5 million who can still prove himself.

I remember watching the euros in 2004 and thinking Arjen Robben was a hidden gem, and that we should have snapped him up! the same goes for Damien duff, when chelsea were stalling over paying 17m for him. we should have been straight in. Jermaine pennant too on a loan deal would have been a valuble addition.

Houllier had a chance to sign Duff and he didn't. Robben was injured and that was a risk Chelsea took which payed off for the most part.

Pennant? Just because he played well against us doesn't mean that he's a World Class player otherwise Heskey would be in that category as well. Pennant could also be facing jail time.

We've had injuries ok, but so does every team. Only alonso really has been missed if u ask me.

Name a team other than us that has had 16 players injured. Alonso may be the only one missed but when you have injured players in a squad that is already thin you have to play players out of position and play players that you don't want to play normaly. i.e. Biscan

When Finnan was injured Carra had to be shifted to RB and we had to bring in Pelle who had no match fitness,no experience with the Premiership,hardly knew his team-mates and play him in three crucial games.

Up front Baros has had four different strike partners:
-Cisse,Pongolle,Mellor and now Morientes. He's had to try to gel with every one of those players because of injuries.

The central midfield looked solid at the very begining of the season as we had Alonso and Gerrard but we didn't take into account that both players could get injured and that we would be stuck with Hamann and Biscan.

Harry Kewell is back soon...is that supposed to cheer us up

If he continues to play like he did before he got injured, thats a plus to me. He was slowly getting back into form as he had 3 assists and a goal before getting injured again.

As much as I like Riise scoring he's too one dimensional on the wing, he can only do so much where as Kewell has the ability to dribble with the ball, get past through players and not hesitate to use his right foot. All he has to do is gain his confidence, he already has the talent and ability.

You can either play the game or you can't!

Fair enough, however consider that 80 percent of our squad are used to hoofing the ball to Michael Owen and expecting him to score. We were hardly playing as a team before Rafa got here, our game was revolved too much between certain individuals and you can't last very long playing football like that as it is a team game.

I am not trying to make execuses but this has to be pointed out because some easily forget it. Like the fact that Benitez has only been here for six or seven months, the way some are reacting you would think that he's been here for five years.

Benitez has a huge task and all credit to him for taking such a huge task [Mourinho could had taken the same task here as he was approached by us for the job but he went to Chelsea where he was guaranteed that he could buy anyone he wanted].

its too easy to make excuses, Manu, the @rse and chelki have all had injuries this season but at least they have still made an effort. that is whats been lacking at liverpool, there has not been too much effort. i am so angry that when we play against the likes off birmingham, southampton, burnley etc we are second best to the ball every time. the opposition pressure us and we can not cope with it. maybe for a novelty one day we should pressure the opposition and put them on the back foot, maybe one day our players will put in 100% commitment for the whole game.

what will we do when we have no injuries, what excuses can we come up with then. im tired of excuses, blaming injuries etc. we are not and never will be the only team that suffers injuries, Manu are missing horseface, @rse are missing campbell, Chelski are missing robben, this is to name just a few of the injuries these clubs are carrying. the difference between them and us is that they are still prepared to put in some effort rather than look for excuses

by **hawkmoon269** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:32 am

If I remember correctly, and forgive the senility if I'm wrong, but at the start of the season the scum had some serious injuries, and their results reflected that. You and forget about using Chelski as an example, they have 2 class players for each position.

That said, the Scum showed heart when it mattered. They came through and fought back. Hate the fu(kers as I do, but Fergie sure can motivate this player to play as a team. That is what is missing at LFC, heart, the ability to overcome adversity, and battle through. I don't care about loosing to better teams. But it is the manner of our loosing matches which worries me. All too often it is to, on paper, weaker teams. They just wanted to win more, plain and simple - not better players, better tactics or more money.
:angry:

by **Paul C** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:31 am

peewee wrote:
A.B. wrote:
spend. and we keep buying muppets with it! Josemi, Nunez (ok part of owen deal), Pellegrino, garcia. Im not convinced, that they can make us great

Nunez = free
Pellegrino = free[only here for six months]
Garcia = remember Pires? Garcia has already scored more goals in his first season than Pires did in his first season at Arsenal.
Which just leaves Josemi who was worth 2.5 million who can still prove himself.

I remember watching the euros in 2004 and thinking Arjen Robben was a hidden gem, and that we should have snapped him up! the same goes for Damien duff, when chelsea were stalling over paying 17m for him. we should have been straight in. Jermaine pennant too on a loan deal would have been a valuble addition.

Houllier had a chance to sign Duff and he didn't. Robben was injured and that was a risk Chelsea took which payed off for the most part.

Pennant? Just because he played well against us doesn't mean that he's a World Class player otherwise Heskey would be in that category as well. Pennant could also be facing jail time.

We've had injuries ok, but so does every team. Only alonso really has been missed if u ask me.

Name a team other than us that has had 16 players injured. Alonso may be the only one missed but when you have injured players in a squad that is already thin you have to play players out of position and play players that you don't want to play normaly. i.e. Biscan

When Finnan was injured Carra had to be shifted to RB and we had to bring in Pelle who had no match fitness,no experience with the Premiership,hardly knew his team-mates and play him in three crucial games.

Up front Baros has had four different strike partners:
-Cisse,Pongolle,Mellor and now Morientes. He's had to try to gel with every one of those players because of injuries.

The central midfield looked solid at the very begining of the season as we had Alonso and Gerrard but we didn't take into account that both players could get injured and that we would be stuck with Hamann and Biscan.

Harry Kewell is back soon...is that supposed to cheer us up

If he continues to play like he did before he got injured, thats a plus to me. He was slowly getting back into form as he had 3 assists and a goal before getting injured again.

As much as I like Riise scoring he's too one dimensional on the wing, he can only do so much where as Kewell has the ability to dribble with the ball, get past through players and not hesitate to use his right foot. All he has to do is gain his confidence, he already has the talent and ability.

You can either play the game or you can't!

Fair enough, however consider that 80 percent of our squad are used to hoofing the ball to Michael Owen and expecting him to score. We were hardly playing as a team before Rafa got here, our game was revolved too much between certain individuals and you can't last very long playing football like that as it is a team game.

I am not trying to make execuses but this has to be pointed out because some easily forget it. Like the fact that Benitez has only been here for six or seven months, the way some are reacting you would think that he's been here for five years.

Benitez has a huge task and all credit to him for taking such a huge task [Mourinho could had taken the same task here as he was approached by us for the job but he went to Chelsea where he was guaranteed that he could buy anyone he wanted].

its too easy to make excuses, Manu, the @rse and chelki have all had injuries this season but at least they have still made an effort. that is whats been lacking at liverpool, there has not been too much effort. i am so angry that when we play against the likes off birmingham, southampton, burnley etc we are second best to the ball every time. the opposition pressure us and we can not cope with it. maybe for a novelty one day we should pressure the opposition and put them on the back foot, maybe one day our players will put in 100% commitment for the whole game.

what will we do when we have no injuries, what excuses can we come up with then. im tired of excuses, blaming injuries etc. we are not and never will be the only team that suffers injuries, Manu are missing horseface, @rse are missing campbell, Chelski are missing robben, this is to name just a few of the injuries these clubs are carrying. the difference between them and us is that they are still prepared to put in some effort rather than look for excuses

I don't agree there PeeWee, we haven't just had one or two players out but 3 players that will be out for the season alone and thats without the likes of Josemi, Kewell etc missing a lot of games, unfortunately Rafa hasn't got the squad to replace quality with quality as he was left a lot of sh1t3 by GH and has had to use players like Traore and Diao, next season will be so different as we can offload some baggage in the summer and buy some quality, after all this was Rafa's first season but it's been made harder with all the injuries he has had to endure

by **Starbridge42** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:40 am

Iceman69 wrote:I remember watching the euros in 2004 and thinking Arjen Robben was a hidden gem, and that we should have snapped him up!

[BHIDDEN[/B] gem?

He was already one of the hottest properties in europe and Chelsea had already agreed to a deal between the January transfer window and the end of the season. So we couldnt exactly snap him up could we? Plus the fact that we would have been required to pay 14 million pounds for him. And Damien Duff for 17 million or Kewell for 5? Ok so Kewell hasnt shown his leeds form for us but when he was signed he was still one fo the best left wingers there was and so a saving of 12million pounds seemed a great idea to me. Ok so it didnt work out but he was a proven quality player not one of houlliers 'potentials.'

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:41 am

the point i am making is that it does not matter how many players we have injured, what matters is that the players who come in at least show some fight. thats what is lacking

by **bRy** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:03 pm

There are so many different topics on this issue of underperformance and a so called lack of heart and many opinions that criticise the decisions made by certain figures at the club, that I think it's time for people to gain a bit of perspective.

In my humble opinion, we're not falling behind the top three as badly as all the doomsayers will have you believe. My reasoning is as follows:

1. Our first team squad is becoming drastically better. You only have to look at the last two big money signings, Morientes and Alonso, to realise this. It's not a question of the gaffer not knowing who's quality and who's rubbish judging by these signings. Especially when we paid 6 mil for Morientes and around 10 for Alonso, in my view this is astute business.

2. The youth on the way through has always been the strong point of a club wanting to become a force in football, barring Chelsea of late, and the young players at Liverpool by all reports are showing promise. What's needed is for the manager to have faith in these players and this has been evident. What people shouldn't do if these players fail to produce is to jump down the manager's throat and demand that he play the first team first time all the time. It's detrimental to the development of the players and people must have some perspective and be aware that these players won't instantly dominate a game, they might even fail to win the game. Without this failure though there's no growth.

3. We're still in the Champions League, although what remains to be seen is whether we'll be in it next year. Failure to qualify for next season's Champions League will be unfortunate, but not fatal. Most players won't leave the club as a result barring Gerrard, however we'll receive a large fee for him if he does decide to leave. It would be a huge loss to the club, however reported figures for he fee if he leaves are around 50million pounds, meaning his sale would be like an investment of funds that a lot of people are claiming the club needs to have. This figure would cushion our failure to qualify for the CL for at least a year, in which time Benitez can make the transfers he wants to make.

Another positive that may be taken from the leaving of Gerrard, is the way in which Everton have played this season following the sale of Rooney. I bet that people's predictions that Everton were nothing without him and were facing relegation at the start of the season spurred the players on.

4. Arsenal and Man Utd 's empires are gradually crumbling.

MU - Keane is due for retirement, there's a goalkeeper shortage, the Nevilles are ageing as is Giggs and they've had to sell Djemba Djemba. Kleberson hasn't featured as hasn't Bellion, all players they've invested in to secure their future. With the exception of Fletcher, United really haven't exposed their reserves to much top flight football.

Arsenal - Keeper problems, defensive problems (especially given the prospect of Cole leaving to Chelsea) and a squad of extremes in terms of age suggests to me that Wenger is planning a few seasons ahead. Their financial position is somewhat similar to ours as is their squad depth. Arsenal have been fortunate not to suffer any real injury crises, however if this occurs in the near future I can't see them being anywhere near 2nd or 3rd on the table, especially if Henry or Pires were to get injured. These players generate much of the team's creativity.

5. Lastly I think that we have a manager that's more than capable of competing on a shoestring against bigger clubs, a manager who is realistic and forward-thinking and above all, demanding. He's yet to even complete a full season and some fans are saying that the honeymoon is over and that he better start producing results etc. I personally am willing to give him another year or two at least to mould a team capable of the utter domination we Pool fans expect. Managers usually have 3 or 5 year plans, and good managers are able to implement them successfully. I expect Raffa to have set out a plan of simialr nature and have the faith in him for him to carry it out.

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:11 pm

Well, its been pretty grim reading on this forum over the last few weeks and some of the kneejerk reactions just beggar belief. We are not going backwards, it just that Manure, then Arsenal, and now Chelsea are raising the bar to a higher level every season.

I found a good article written by a supporter which pretty much sums up why we should still remain optimistic.

The past:

Shanks took over Liverpool fc in 1959 and if you look at his first 2 games in charge. Home to cardiff city result 0-4, away to charlton result 0-3.

Now we all know what happened over the ensuing years all the way to his retirement in 74. I feel that today in the current EPL climate we’d be slagging players off, calling for his head, sack the board, sign this player that player, money, bla bla bla (it gets boring).

The present:

Raffa takes over Liverpool fc in 2005 and if we look at the results since hes taken over, well they’ve been wildly inconsistent to say the least, and heres my point, like any job, be it football or any other job, things take time,
we all have off days for instance, we get things wrong, we learn and adapt accordingly.

We lost Owen, he’s gone now lets get over it, Gerrard is STILL AT THE CLUB, what he does this summer, well nobody knows.

This I do know, he currently plays for LFC and NOBODY ELSE, so forum people and Liverpool supporters everywhere whilst he’s wearing that red shirt, he’s got my 110% backing. Sure some of the players we’ve signed over the last (and it hurts to say this) 15 years IMO have not been worthy of wearing our colours, but when they are out on that pitch, I”ll back them to the hilt (not slag them off) remember it is a team game.

We have to get back to that team ethos of old, not just rellying on certain individuals (we know who they are) to pull us out of the mire.

Raffa is at the very beginning of a long journey, some it is going to be painfull. But lets see eh, look at Shanks early results and look where he took us. Patience is the key here. So come on back the players who wear red (all of them).

The future:

Now I don’t have a crystal ball, no none of us do. I think following our team would be a dull affair if we did. We might just win a trophy this season and how many teams will have that chance (very few) we’re in the last 16 of the champions league, anything can happen.

At the moment we have a manager with a very good track record. He looks like he’s trying to put his mark on the team. Lets give him a chance.

Money, Chairmen, sponsors, these things will always change (and nowerdays these things have a massive affect on clubs).
We can speculate all we want but, well we just don’t know do we? I’m just as frustrated but lets wait and see.

by **109-1105722616** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:21 pm

we are behind the top 3 because we had years of houllier messing about and a board who havent got a clue

by **Iceman69** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:24 pm

St. Michael , you make some valid points, and im not panicking. It's just observation; what we are seeing unfold before our eyes.

Your philosophy is that everything will turn out ok? Not always the case! we may go the other way and become mid-table! I'm not saying we will, but we could do. you shouldn't judge this era with shankly and teams of the past.

With the likes of Arsenal, Man Poo and Chelsea raising the bar, its up to us to adapt to that and keep the pressure on.

I think we should buy back michael owen actually in the summer, i don't know why he even left, any fool could tell he wasn't gonna get in that team. and we got peanuts for him.

As regards the players who are inconsistent, not giving 100% etc etc, those players should just be dropped then, cause it's obviously a problem if it happens often.

I don't think Rafa feels injuries are a major problem or we wouldn't be letting Diao go out on loan mid season to the Brummies, would we?

Champions league or bust for me!

by **A.B.** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:26 pm

think we should buy back michael owen actually in the summer, i don't know why he even left, any fool could tell he wasn't gonna get in that team. and we got peanuts for him.

We sold him for 8 million, I don't know if we could had gotten anymore for Owen because of his contract. His body language said it all, he didn't want to be here anymore so he left. He wanted a fresh start, wanted a place where he could be guaranteed to play in the CL however that has bitten him in the a$$ in a way as he's on the bench for every game.

If we were to buy him back we would have to pay more than Real Madrid did and thats not good business.

by **109-1105722616** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:43 pm

i hope owen has learned his lesson now

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