Liverpool FC Forum

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:34 pm

There is no point in having two great keepers?

We dont need the money. We aren't a poor club and have you seen the amount of games Kirkland has been available for over the last two years? Its a bloody good job we kept Dudek i can tell you.

by **JBG** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:44 pm

Stu.....

One of the sore talking points at last week's AGM was the grave fears many of the shareholders have about the financial position of the club.

We are not poor, but miss out on the Champions League again and we can forget about splashing the cash in a big way. Also, the club will soon decide on building a new stadium in the near future and a big chunk of our budget will have to go on that project.

You only have to look at what building a new stadium is doing to Arsenal financially.

What I'm saying is that its pointless and a waste of resources having two very good keepers. Its not as if you can play one of them slightly out of position (ala Heskey) to accomodate them.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:49 pm

Cut the squad by getting rid of dead wood. Not class.

Selling class is the way backwards mate and i'll never ever be happy when Liverpool sell class players. Even if its for the "good" of the club.

I can't see how people can critisise the squad then call for us to sell excellent players. Its madness.

Also we will get at least 4th place.

by **Dalglish** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:27 am

This thread is all over the place !!!!!!!!!! First we discussing the keepers, then the defence , transfer tactics etc....

Lets get it right ... FACTS :

1.Biscan is at best a functional player who has done a job for us in the back. he is not as GOOD as GH believes, neither is he as BAD as many fans say he is.

2. Hyppia is NOT as comfortable playing with Rise and Buiscan either side and do you blame him !!!!!!! LOL

3. Rise has not played well for LFC for the last 12 months

4. We have had the worst injury to the most importnat players of ANY club in the prem this season

5. Jones is decent "COVER" , yes he may stay IF Dudek is sold but we al lknow long term Kirkland is the first choice.

6. LFC need to offload at least 5 players end of season to raise capital amd at least ease the wage bill. Diao, Cheyrou, Rise, Diouf and Biscan must be costing us far more than they are worth to LFC.

7. Morgan may well arrive in the summer and it WILL mean curtains for GH.

8. Martin Oneil is NOT at Anfield yet and its not 100% he will come if asked. Even if he does arrive in the summer he may not be the answer to all the problems at LFC that many fans seem to think he is.

Walk on.......

by **Owzat** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:02 pm

Dalglish - 100% agree! I still feel the injury crisis is blown out of proportion, largely because we are so dependent on Michael Owen.

If we sort our defence out we have GERRARD, OWEN AND KEWELL - things have to get better with those three in the side plus Hamann and one or two others. I have always maintained we have a good base of players but the rest of the XI is not good or consistent enough and I can only hold Houllier responsible. For the XI we can put out our results have not been good enough for over 12 months. To lose 16 games out of the last 46 (34.8%) cannot be solely blamed on injuries.

by **greenred** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:42 pm

I agree, the "injury crisis" is yet another houllier smokescreen.He insults our intelligence by blaming all our woes on the absence of various players.Football has become a squad game and if we cant handle a few injuries then either our squad isnt big enough or theyre not good enough.As far as im aware we have 29 first team players compared to real madrid who amazingly only have 23.So if its not size then it must be quality.Liverpools squad does not run to 29 genuine first team players and for that we can only blame one man.Ironically houlliers complaints about injuries condemn him further as it is his responsibility to provide liverpool with a genuinely competitive squad.He digs himself deeper every time he opens his mouth.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:33 pm

playing 6 squad players in anyside at one time will cause problems. 2-3 you can possibley get away with.

Arsenal would not be in the position they were if they'd been missing both first choice fullbacks, Henry and Vieira for at LEAST 50% of the season. Man Utd wouldn't be where they are if they'd been missing both fullbacks, RvN and Keane for 50% of the season.

Its not a smoke screen. To ignore it is to ignore reality. If you can't see this then there is something wrong.

Hamann this season, played without 17, W6, D5, L6, played with 10, W7, D2, L1. While Hamann was out of the team who is arguabley our most imprortant player, we were also missing Henchoz, Finnan, Carragher, Owen and Owen's Backup in Baros. This leaves us without a recognised right back aswell as Carragher and Finnan are both injured.

You don't think thats a viable "excuse" for poor form and inconsistency? I find that highly ignorant. You take away a workmans tools and then what can they do?

Still at this moment we're missing Dudek, Kirkland, Gerrard, Finnan, Carragher, Baros. Name a side in the league any of those players wouldn't get into?

Thats the Captain, our goalkeeper (which ever one you prefer) both our full backs and our second or third striker.

Still its just a smokescreen. This attitude towards Houllier is horrible and i just hope you all realise this before he's driven out of the club. He's getting it right and signing the correct players more often than not.

The signings in 2002 were mistakes, he's addmitted this.

The signings of Hamann, Hyypia, Kewell, Finnan, Babbel, Henchoz, Dudek, Kirkland, Baros, Heskey (at the time), McAllister, Smicer, Le Tallec and Pongolle weren't mistakes.

This summer he'll get it right again and improve the First 11 further.

I think he at least deserves that chance depending on how the rest of this season goes. If when all the players are back there is no improvement then fine i'll admit i was wrong but that won't happen.

I'd put my life on that.

by **JBG** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:10 pm

1. We have had some bad injuries this season: losing Michael Owen and Didi Hamman for long periods has been painful. We also miss Gerrard, although luckily we have put some wins together in his absence.

2. We have missed Baros, Carragher, Henchoz and Finnan as well, but their loss haven't been as bad as those under point one.

3. Diao's and Cheyrou's injuries haven't affected us.

4. Owen misses almost 1/4 of every season through injury. WE have never brought in an appropriate back up.

5. When the players return from injury we will DEFINITELY IMPROVE but even with a full strength 11 we would struggle to get in among Chelsea, Man UTD and Arsenal, although we would be much closer to them than we are.

Ultimately we have to ask ourselves, after 5 years of Houllier, have we made progress?

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:22 pm

Right i like this little arguement.

At last you've acknowledged that we've had injuries this season.

point 3. Fair enough i'd probably agree.

4. I disagree. Last season he played 36 league games. He has never been as injury prone as people make out. Its mainly England games he's missed. We have good backup in Baros and Pongolle looks to be coming on and will be a FAR better striker next season. Heskey USED to be an excellent player, still is when he's up for it. If he ever consistently performed we'd have a very classy strike force. Hopefully Cisse can replace Heskey and offer us that consistent second striker we've lacked.

When both Baros and Owen have been out for this long this season its going to cost us alot of points and goals.

5. I disagree. First 11 i feel we are as good as anything in the league (if we are behind its only 1 player maximum) and with the right improvements this summer we will be better hopefully and good enough to make an impact in europe.

Progress? Yes miles.

We were serious contenders a few seasons back, won cups, beating Everton and the mancs on a regular basis (under normal circumstances... I.E. Dudek not doing a Barthez, Sami not being sent off for looking at RvN and missing our best players this season).

There is also a more professional attitude now aswell and also the squad is a young squad full of talent and potential aswell as great ability with some players. Under Evans apart from Fowler, Owen, Carragher and McManaman there was nothing else to write home about.

We are on the right track after a blip (2002 signings and season and this one through injury). Patience is a virtue and i am convinced he'll get it right.

by **JBG** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:35 pm

You're correct Stu about Owen playing most league games last year, although Sods Law would say that he would experience his first proper spell of poor form for the club!

My point is that I think in the past 18 months we have been dangerously dependent on Owen for goals.

I always maintain that if Owen stays injury free and the team is playing reasonably well he will reward us with a 30 league goals.

He might not have the immediate stand out strengths of Henry and RVN, but he has character and football intelligence in abundance (as well as rocket like pace and under-rated technique).

The problem is that when Owen is out, who scores the goals? Heskey, Murphy and Kewell score a few, but we have nobody there to get another 15-18 a season. There is nobody we can turn to when Owen is out.

I accept your point Stu that Houllier is building for the future with the signings of Baros, Le Tallec and Pongolle, who with a bit of luck will turn into 3 very good offensive players for Liverpool.

I think, though, that even you will agree with me when I say that Houllier is in a bit of a tight spot at the moment with the team's injuries and in-different form and he could probably use a guy who can deliver the goods now, rather than in three years time?

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:13 am

But the thing is Baros is capable of 15 goals a season at present. Maybe even more. 12 in 27 starts and 14 sub last season backs this up. He's more experienced than last year also.

But he's not able to do it because he's been struck down. The "old" Emile Heskey and Baros would have been more than sufficient backup but again Emile for whatever reason doesn't want to perform. Pongolle next year or the year after will become a good stand in aswell.

Kewell is capable of 15 a season, Murphy 10 at least. Gerrard.... well his goal return is annoying since the treble season and isn't upto standard (1 this season and that was a penalty).

It will come together for Houllier and i feel like i've talked a bit of sense into you

I think, though, that even you will agree with me when I say that Houllier is in a bit of a tight spot at the moment with the team's injuries and in-different form and he could probably use a guy who can deliver the goods now, rather than in three years time?

Yeah sound. But thats why i'm willing to give him the time he needs. You've said it yourself and i don't think its good enough reason to sack a man who's done so much and brought us this far.

I don't mean to sound patronising but you have to look at the big picture. If you do this you'll see the positives aswell as the negatives and realise just what outwieghs what. Tell me i'm wrong by all means but i'll be of this opinion untill next summer. If we don't go verry close and look like a side that can do it next year then i really will say right, times run out. But there are many circumstances which have hindered the teams progress. Babbel illness as he was one of our best players, Management mistakes (2002 signings mostly), Houlliers illness, the ridiculous injure list this season. They've all had there effect. Make of it what you will.

by **Dalglish** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:15 am

Great thread , I enjoyed reading the comments from the thought-through ones to the "I heard my mate say this in a pub about such a player and it sounded good" LOL:p Sometimes its easier to slag off Heskey or whoever else YOU deem has had a bad game than to be constructive and look beyond the last result. To say Houllier has NOT brought LFC forward is quite frankly speaking on an empty head, he has brought LFC miles forward from the strength of the squad to belief of the fans. please when you try and answer the Q of whether GH has brought LFc forward stop thinking of JUST the last 6 months. From 2001, the quality of Players who WANT to come to Liverpool, the dignity and respect GH commands within football and the achievemnts over the OTHER 3 and half seasons is obvious to all who look byond this season.

Walk on ...

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:40 am

Well said.

Basically its not all positive, but its a hell of a lot more positive than negative.

He deserves the chance and patience will be reported. Also what we have to remember is this is his first really big club job, he has to learn aswell and i think this is something he is maybe still doing.

by **Dalglish** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:45 am

Spot on Stu, thanks for the comments. fans are so fickle sometimes andlok inthe short term only i.e. last result , I hope Gh gets another season, I've met him and talked with him the night before the 2003 Carling Cup final when we beat the Mancs 2-0, i asked him if he was optimistic about winning (remeber we were on a really bad run and Man u were flying) he replied "Well , you know Liverpool, we always try our best" and i believed him THEN and I believe him NOW ....

by **JBG** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:24 pm

I have serious doubts about whether Houllier has brought us forward and whether we can say that we are better off now than we were in Roy Evans’ day.

I mean, Houllier worked miracles in 2000, 2001 and 2002. He took a gamble by completely breaking up Roy Evans team and he took his time in rebuilding it in the way he wanted it. I was very impressed in how he brought discipline and hard work back onto the pitch, and we were making huge strides by 2001 and 2002. I admit that I celebrated wildly in 2001 when we won the cups (I know that some people slag us off for winning a “Mickey Mouse treble” but we hadn’t won trophies for so long so it really felt good) and at the time it felt really important seeing that a coming team needs to win a trophy if they are going to go on and progress. That was Leeds’ big problem under O’ Leary, and to a lesser extent Newcastle.

Houllier’s side made great strides in 2002 with their very good league campaign and also reaching the QF of the Champions League. Phil Thompson gets a lot of credit for 2002 (and he deserves it) but really Thompson was just overseeing Houllier’s team, and by and large the team carried on as it would have under Houllier.

Houllier made his first genuine mistakes in the summer of 2002 with the signings. That summer I had every faith in Liverpool going all out for the Championship in 2002/03. We looked like we had passed out the Mancs (who were appearing to be falling apart) and weren’t that far off Arsenal. Nicholas Anelka was playing some great stuff by April 2002 (Alan Hansen described his display against Newcastle at home in the spring as “the best performance of the season by a forward”) and people were genuinely beginning to fear us.

All the same a lot of people were arguing that as good as Houllier’s team was, it had some flaws, namely the lack of width and over relying on the counter attack.

I was confident that Houllier would change things slightly and we would depose Arsenal as top dogs.

We all know that the signings flopped. Both Damien Duff and Anelka wanted to sign for us (Duff is a boyhood Pool fan) but I admit that signing them in 2002 would have cost £25-27million. Instead Houllier said that we were to “trust him” on Diao, Diouff and Cheyrou. I had seen Diouff in the 2002 World Cup and he looked very good.

Last season we started very well and were top by the end of October, but we have to be honest and say that the performances weren’t great. We threw away leads at home to Birmingham and Newcastle, and picked up some lucky wins. Valencia completely outplayed us at home and away in the Champions League. I still didn’t despair as the old cliché says that “a sign of a good team is a side which picks up wins when it isn’t playing well”.

Then came the collapse.

It went on for months and months. Houllier first blamed it on luck and then called it a “blip” in the team’s development. He said it was only natural for a side that had come so far so soon to hit a bad spell. It was painful, but I was prepared to believe him, but my first real doubts about Houllier arose.

It finally ended when Heskey scored at Southampton and we started winning again. We beat the Mancs in Cardiff and for a while we looked like we were on the way back. We went on a run, but as the finalle approached, we bottled it. We played badly at home to Man City and lost, meaning that we had to get a result against Chelsea.

We lost.

The Liverpool of 2001 didn’t lose these big games.

Then there is this season. We have had some injuries, but our form has been all over the place. One week we look good, the next pathetic. The squad is now littered with dead wood, expensive signings from abroad who are either injured or played out of position. We have too many young players with “potential” who are thrown into the team and expected to deliver (Pongolle, Baros). We have fallen 18 points behind the leaders, and even with the return of all our injuries, even if we do qualify for the Champions League, we still will be miles behind the top 3.

Have we progressed?

We did up until 2002, but have fallen into decline since then.

It is far from certain that even when all our injured players return, we are good enough to compete.

Loom at Roy Evans. His team steadily improved through 1994, 1995 and 1996, playing beautiful football and become firmly positioned in the top four. In 1997 it could have won the league, and in 1998 it stagnated. Evans’ side never dropped out of the top 4 (until Houllier arrived). It had loads of faults: the Spice boys, dodgy defence and lack of a genuine leader, but it had plenty of skill and ability. Evans was never going to win us the league. Can we say the same about Houllier?

Evans had 5 years, never finished out of the top 4, and his team stagnated.

Houllier has had 5 years, finished twice out of the top four (although one was 1999), and won a few trophies, but his team stagnated and went into decline.

Neither Evans’ nor Houllier has delivered the Championship in 10 years so where is the progress?

Maybe Houllier will eventually get it right. Maybe he will win the Championship within 2 years. But that’s a huge maybe, especially with Chelsea’s billions, Man Utd’s successful re-building and the growing strenght of Arsenal. Where does Houllier’s Liverpool fit among them?

I like Houllier, I want him to succeed, but I simply don't believe he will.

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