Liverpool FC Forum

by **115-1073096938** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:03 pm

Read this off a poster on lfconline and he puts it a bit more clearly for those of you who rather stupidly think squad players should be of equal ability of Stevey Gerrard and Michael Owen.

While i don't agree completely with his starting 11 the point of the argument is still pretty much the same.

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Story by Stephen Jones aka Supared 7 January 2004
Story taken from LFConline.

There seems to be a growing trend on most LFC forums to dismiss legitimate 'excuses' for why Liverpool have struggled so far this season. One 'excuse' which has been dismissed by many is the injury crisis we have suffered.

If every player was fully fit who would be in your starting eleven? Well mine would be

Kirkland
Finnan
Henchoz
Hyypia
Carragher
Diouf
Hamann
Gerrard
Kewell
Owen
Baros

Some may disagree but I think this is as near to our best eleven. Out of the 25 games we have played thus far that selection of players have never been available to Gerard Houllier. Since Carragher and Baros were injured Gerard Houllier has been without at least 4 of those players on SIX occasions, 5 of them on TWELVE occasions and as many as 6 on FIVE occasions.

We have been without our first choice strikers for SEVENTEEN games. Our defence has lacked at least 3 of our first choice defenders on TWELVE occasions. The season up to mid November saw Liverpool deprived of Kirkland, Henchoz, Carragher, Hamann & Baros for at least 50% of the matches. When Hamann finally returned Finnan, Kewell and Owen all simultaneously joined the injury list.

Many have picked apart the performance against Yeovil. Yet Liverpool had SIX of the first team eleven OUT!!!!. Yes thats right SIX!!!!.

Now some will look at these facts and still shy away from them. They will NEVER give Gerard Houllier even the slightest acknowledgement that he has had to work with a seriously depleted team.

They argue that the squad is weak. Yet they havent even bothered to look more closely at those squad players. Most of them have also been injured also. Diao, Cheyrou and Smicer have also suffered with injuries. Thats the only reason the two French Kids have played as often as they have.

And lets look also at the quality expected of a squad player. Are they to be an equal to our first teamers. I dont think so. A squad player is there to fill in when required due to injury and suspension. They are there to give valuable backup. They are there as an adequate replacement.

We all know that Heskey isnt a patch on Baros and Owen. Yet had Owen or Baros missed a match or two I am sure Heskey would have filled in admirably. NOT for SIXTEEN games though. And especially when both strikers are also out for that duration. And then consider he was also expected to play with a youngster who is new to the game and is plying his trade in a foreign country at the tender age of 18. Yet this is what our squad player has been asked.

We havent asked Biscan to stand in for Henchoz for a few games. It has been months. We havent expected Traore or Riise to marshall the left back position for a few games either. Carragher has been missing for TWENTY TWO games. And we havent expected these players to come in in ones and twos like with most teams. We are bringing in up to FIVE AND SIX squad players at any one time. And still people shake their heads and wonder why we have struggled. Off course all these injuries are Houlliers fault.

For years we have been told by the knowledgable that Cheyrou, Biscan, Smicer, Murphy, Diao and Traore are all cr#p. Yet when Gerard has been forced to field nearly all of them aswell as a couple of French youngsters they are amazed when we struggle. For your information those players are not cr#p. They are all very low on confidence. And no, Gerard is not at fault here either. Not one of these players recieves an ounce of support from the fans. NOT ONE!!!!. They never have. And yet the very fans who have abused and ridiculed them wonder why their confidence is ruined. Again this is down to Houllier. He plays them out of position so he obviously has sapped their confidence. Thats cr#p. Not one person, and I defy anyone to say otherwise, could carry out their job satisfactorily if they were constantly criticised every single day.

So we have had a situation this season which is unprecedented. Liverpool FC have been hit with a huge injury crisis to their very best weaponry. Imagine how the war in Iraq would have faired had the Americans been denied their best attacking weapons. Take away there aircraft and the war would have been tougher. Take out their tanks also and the backup infantry pales in comparison. Yet the infantry are nothing without the heavy backup of the tanks and aircraft. And this is the same with Liverpool's squad players. They have been asked to do most of the work when they needed the help of the injured guys at the same time. We could have coped with injuries to Owen, Hamann, Henchoz and Kirkland. But take out Finnan, Carragher, Baros, Kewell and Gerrard also and we are in trouble.

The same could be said of Arsenal and Man Utd. They havent been placed in a similar position. Where do you honestly think Arsenal would be in the league if Henry had suffered the same injury as Baros. If Pires had suffered the injuries Owen has. If Lehmann was as injury prone as Kirkland. If their two first choice fullbacks were removed for most of the season. Does anybody honestly think that Arsenal would be still be up there challenging? Do they honestly think that a depleted Arsenal would have won at Anfield? I think not. So lets hear no more cr#p about injuries being no excuse. Because if you deprive anybody of their tools how are they supposed to work productively. And its not Gerard Houllier's fault his star players have been injured.

by **cheesecakery** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:01 am

i thought Dudek played fabulous today, that save from Vassel was class

by **115-1073096938** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:59 am

Jones u mean?

by **supersub** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:02 am

To compare injuries at Anfield,to the Americans being deprived of their weapons of mass murder in the slaughter of Iraq is laughable if wasn't so bloody sad.
Once again it's a competition for a squad of players not 11.If after 5 years in charge and £110 million spent,Houllier can only muster 11 1st teamers you have just confirmed what a lot of people are saying,he can't be up for the job.I actually think we have better players than you give credit,I certainly believe with the addition of 2-3 class players we may have assembled a very good squad capable of mounting a decent challenge next season.Whether it's under the guidance of GH,we will have to wait and see.But don't keep blaming injures,it hardly explains last season's total capitulation from November onwards.

by **supersub** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:02 am

cheesey is taking the p#ss.

by **leothelion** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:19 am

I AGREE GH HAS BEEN UNLUCKY WITH INJURIES BUT AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE A GOOD MANAGER EXPECTS TO HAVE INJURIES AND PREPARES TO HAVE COVER FOR THEM BUT THE SO CALLED SQUAD PLAYERS WE HAVE TO COVER SHOULD NOT BE IN A LIVERPOOL SQUAD WHEN KIRKLAND IS OUT WE HAVE DUDEK THATS OK BUT THE LIKES OF BISCAN IS NO MATCH TO COVER ANY OF OUR DEFENDERS BUT GH STICKS WITH HIM SMICER IS ANOTHER HE HAS STUCK WITH NOT SAYING ALL HIS SIGNINGS HAVE BEEN BAD BUT WITH THE MONEY THAT WAS SPENT THERE SHOULD BE ADEQUATE COVER FOR EVERY POSITION .
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE HOULLIER SUCEED BUT IF HE CANT ADMIT THAT A FEW PLAYERS HE BROUGHT IN ARE NOT WORKING OUT AND IS NOT PREPARED TO GET RID OF THEM THEN IM SORRY TO SAY HE WONT DO THE JOB
NO PROBLEM GIVING A PLAYER A CHANCE BUT HOULLIER IS GIVING TOO MANY CHANCES

by **115-1073096938** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:03 am

Thats the point tho. There is more than adequate cover.

But when all that "adequate cover" has to come in at once its not really adequate and i don't give a flying f##k who you are if you are missing 4, 5 and 6 of your best 8 or 9 players every single game you are going to struggle.

The first 11 needs strengthening, not the rest of the squad. The cover is there, the quality in the first 11 tho is still a bit thin. 2 class keepers, 2 Class defenders (Hyypia and Finnan), 3 class midfielders (Kewell, Gerrard, Hamann) and 1 class striker (Owen). When everyones fit its a class side but we need these main players fit most of the time if we are to seriously compete which hasn't happened at all this season, we've often been missing 2 or 3 at a time. With another class striker and defender then maybe we can cope better with injuries. And i don't give a flying f##k weather its chelsea, arsenal, man utd, juventus, milan, madrid, roma, deportivo, valencia if they had the same injuries as us this season these teams would probably struggle to a similar extent.

Also did you see the stats on Didi Hamann?

Without played 17, W6, D5, L6
With played 10, W7, D2, L1

Not saying its all down to him, but he's a f##kin class act, and a class act we've missed for over most of the season.

by **Wendi Richter** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:58 am

There are other problems, but to ignore the magnitutude of our injuries is to ignore reality.

With the 'normal' run of injuries we would be comfortably 4th pushing 3rd pretty hard and maybe 6-8 pts off top. No, its still not good enough but its not too far away.

by **long sleeved joe** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:36 pm

Our injured players should be back after about a month and then fully match fit a few matches after that, If this team is as good as Houllier says then (assuming no fresh injuries) we should be looking like a championship winning team for the last couple of months of the season, which would be enough to get us that 4th place. It makes for an interesting time for Liverpool fans

by **115-1073096938** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:29 pm

I don't know about a championship winning side... but i honestly think we'll look an awful lot better once the injured lot come back and alot closer tto the likes of United, Arsenal and Chelsea.

Kirkland in for Jones
Carragher in for Riise
Finnan in for Igor
Gerrard in for Diouf
Baros in for Heskey (unless Heskey keeps up his recent good form).

by **oldredeyes** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:51 pm

I think we are all waiting to see how the team plays when it is back to full strength. But as S/S said in his post, we did have a full team on the run in last season and still fell apart at the seams. That is why the fans are naturally concerned that GH (aka Houdini) is just buying time and hoping it all comes right in the end. But as one eminent writer said today.
'Liverpool are seventeen points off the leaders and seventeen points away from the team at the bottom. No matter whose dictionary you look at, and by Liverpools own standards, that is mediocrity.
I've watched the reds for too many years to write them off and I love the club. But I still think there are too many excuses flying around and not enough delivering of promises made five years and millions of pounds ago.
I wait patiently - and hope.

by **supersub** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:54 pm

I agree oldredeyes;you can't spend £110 million and then claim that they are really my 1st team players.Some people can't see reality because the wool is too thick.

by **115-1073096938** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:18 pm

Unbleievable.

So because Houllier has spent £110 million he isn't allowed to have a best 11? Same applies for Chelsea and United over the last 5 years then yeah?

Pathetic. Some people will stop at nothing to look for an excuse. Houllier has spent £110 on 30 odd players... not 6 or 7 like Man Utd and Chelsea, 30+ players. He isn't going to get it right all of the time when he has that high a turnover of players.

You are simply ignoring reality. Don't give me this sh##e about him should haveing players who can fill in at the click of a finger for Gerrard and Owen (probably worth £60m+ between them). Its bloody ignorance to suggest that because he has spent £110 million we should win the league. Look at the teams around us for christs sake.

by **simic_ie** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:38 pm

Of course Liverpool are allowed to have a best eleven, everybody just want a better best eleven, there are still three or four positions that require extra quality. As for the injury situation, it has to be a legitamate excuse people.

The players the club has been without for the majority of the season are mmbers of our best eleven, and we have been without them all season. It's not as if the team built up a head of steam before the injuries so the squad players could get some confidence together by playing in a winning team. To be without our first choice defence, midfield and attack all at the same time is pretty much unique in the league and I don't think any other team in the league, with the possible exception of Chelsea, could cope any better than Liverpool have, even Chelsea are struggling now without Damien Duff to create.

How Liverpool let Duff go without is beyond me. He should have been signed in the season of Diouf Cheyrou and Diao. If we bought im for the combined fee of those three it would have been money well spent.

But anyway back to my point which is............ oh yeah the injuries. Imagine United without Howard, Ferdinand, O'Shea, Neville, Keane, Scholes and Van Horsesface all at the same time. Or Arsenal without Lehman, Campbell, Cole, Lauren, Pires, Viera and Henry all at the same time. Do you honestly believe they would be anywhere near where they are now. Not on your nelly. With all our first choice players coming back and with a few results going the right way who know what will happen between now and the seasons end.

P.S. With the way Heskey is playing now that his contract is due soon maybe we should give him a game by game contract. That might fire him up a bit. Pity he needs that motivation though. He could be one of the most feared striker in Europe if he was confident enough to do it.

by **Owzat** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:41 pm

Despite these reported injuries, most of the top players have featured in at least 12 league games this season (out of a possible 20). We have two good keepers so it is of no great consequence if one or the other is injured and now we have an adequate replacement in Jones

Hyypia - 20 games (100%)
Biscan - 20 games (100%)
Kirkland/Dudek - 5+14 games = 19 (95%)
Diouf - 19 games (95%)
Heskey - 19 games (95%)
Kewell - 18 games (90%)
Murphy - 17 games (85%)
Gerrard - 17 games (85%)
Riise - 16 games (80%)
Smicer - 16 games (80%)

Owen - 12 games (60%)
Finnan - 12 games (60%)
Pongolle - 11 games (55%)

Hamann - 7 games (35%)
Henchoz - 7 games (35%)
Baros - 5 games (25%)
Carragher - 5 games (25%)

Source : www.bbc.co.uk

Only four "key" players have played in less than half our games. Owen has probably been most missed. Obviously we miss key players like any team would :

Scholes 03/04 - 14 out of 21 games
Keane 02/03 - 21 games total

Pires 02/03 - 26 games total
Ljungberg 02/03 - 20 games total
Vieira 02/03 - 24 games total
Vieira 03/04 - 13 games out of 21

*obviously suspensions could affect some of those figures but they were still absent from the team

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The injury situation explained.

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