Liverpool FC Forum

by **Redrider** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:39 pm

Your right Jim, Shankly identified a style of play and went out to get the players who could do it for him. Paisley further developed the style into the possession-passing game and again went in pursuit of players who could do it the Liverpool way and the result was our great sides of the seventies and eighties.

by **jim_morrison_supported_liverpool** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:02 pm

the way stu is talking is as if your squad is unchangeable.

i can sort of see what you're saying stu that you have to build round your strengths, but the current Liverpool team will be capable of playing more attacking minded footy, with a player or two. its not as if the players there are only good at playing defensively minded football..

and why do you call football that isnt defensive "fannyin round." Arsenal and Man U have been fannyin their way to the title every year man.

to round it off. playing to your strengths is good sense and logical. you would be stupid if you didnt, but, as manager of Liverpool, you can make your strengths anything you want becoz you can buy players or recruit managers like Benitez who can turn so called "defensive minded" players into more attacking ones. and then, it would make sense not to choose as your strengths "defensive play" cos bein in the prem, you'll never win it.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:23 pm

My take on this is very simple. Avoid selling Gerrard at all costs.

We've made so many disappointing signings over recent years that it'd be absolute suicide to consider building your team from the proceeds of selling your best player. It could add up to us getting the equivalent of 4 or 5 Cheyrous, and where's the progress in that?

For me, the rest of the season shouldn't be a time of talking about who we'll sign in summer, it'd be a time for analysing who should and shouldn't be on the books. The point's been made before, but I'd want to look at Whitbread to see if he's a viable first team option alongside Carra. Similarly, players like Partridge and Warnock may actually turn out to be of sufficient quality to mean that we don't need big money signings on the wings. Similarly with TLT and Pongolle - get them involved, and see if their potential is actually bearing fruit. If we can actually bring out some of this f*cking potential that I'm bored of hearing about, then our finances won't need to be stretched so far.

by **115-1073096938** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:58 pm

Houllier CHOSE to play football like that, and bought the players to fit the style. similarly, benitez CHOOSES HIMSELF that he will play differently, and so will buy the players in order to do this, and will nurture the existing ones into his philosophy LIKE WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THIS SEASON.

the philosophy comes before the players stu, you dont have your players and then mould your philosophy around them. Houllier spent 120 million. are you telling me he was forced to play the type of football we did becoz it was the strength of the personnel? F*ck off stu THATS RUBBISH.

In the Greece team, yes, you have got to play to your strengths becoz you cant buy players. the same with Wimbledon, do you really think if Wimbledon had money they would still choose to play that game? exactly.

Oh right, so Houllier didn't chose to play that way because of the Personel he already had?

WRONG!!! He chose to play that way because that was Michael Owen and then Sami Hyypia's strength. If you actually watched Liverpool when Hyypia was signed, we started playing a high line and only in his second season we started to defend deeper.

Houllier had one of the worlds best players and built a side around him, so therefore his style of play was decided by his personel.

by **XSD** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:13 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
Houllier CHOSE to play football like that, and bought the players to fit the style. similarly, benitez CHOOSES HIMSELF that he will play differently, and so will buy the players in order to do this, and will nurture the existing ones into his philosophy LIKE WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THIS SEASON.

the philosophy comes before the players stu, you dont have your players and then mould your philosophy around them. Houllier spent 120 million. are you telling me he was forced to play the type of football we did becoz it was the strength of the personnel? F*ck off stu THATS RUBBISH.

In the Greece team, yes, you have got to play to your strengths becoz you cant buy players. the same with Wimbledon, do you really think if Wimbledon had money they would still choose to play that game? exactly.

Oh right, so Houllier didn't chose to play that way because of the Personel he already had?

WRONG!!! He chose to play that way because that was Michael Owen and then Sami Hyypia's strength. If you actually watched Liverpool when Hyypia was signed, we started playing a high line and only in his second season we started to defend deeper.

Houllier had one of the worlds best players and built a side around him, so therefore his style of play was decided by his personel.

That's only one player, it doesn't make a team.
I think Micheal Owen would have looked better in the team we are building now either way.
Houllier brought in Hyypia and Henchoz, they can defend deep. He didn't take over the club with Hyppia and Henchoz then decide to play to their strengths...
He got rid of Robbie Fowler, who could not play the game he wanted.

I'm not criticising him for it, just pointing out he made the squad around a style rather than the style around a squad.

by **XSD** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:38 pm

crazyhorse wrote:Get him fit and full of confidence and Kieron Dyer is a good utility player. He has had a bad 18 months but is a potential star.

I could say the same about a lot of players.
I think we should buy performing players not underperforming players.

by **bigmick** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:47 pm

True he's underperforming, chances are he will continue to do so now he's angered the fans with his petulance. That said, a move might just spark him up a bit. You probably wouldn't have to break the bank to get him (around 3 million I would guess) and if he did perform to his potential, would be a good player for us. He's not one that I've ever championed but at the right price, it's certainly not a gamble that I would have any huge problem with.

by **115-1073096938** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:51 pm

for Dyer you'd be looking more along the lines of £7m-£8m i think.

by **jim_morrison_supported_liverpool** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:48 am

stu_the_red wrote:
Houllier CHOSE to play football like that, and bought the players to fit the style. similarly, benitez CHOOSES HIMSELF that he will play differently, and so will buy the players in order to do this, and will nurture the existing ones into his philosophy LIKE WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THIS SEASON.

the philosophy comes before the players stu, you dont have your players and then mould your philosophy around them. Houllier spent 120 million. are you telling me he was forced to play the type of football we did becoz it was the strength of the personnel? F*ck off stu THATS RUBBISH.

In the Greece team, yes, you have got to play to your strengths becoz you cant buy players. the same with Wimbledon, do you really think if Wimbledon had money they would still choose to play that game? exactly.

Oh right, so Houllier didn't chose to play that way because of the Personel he already had?

WRONG!!! He chose to play that way because that was Michael Owen and then Sami Hyypia's strength. If you actually watched Liverpool when Hyypia was signed, we started playing a high line and only in his second season we started to defend deeper.

Houllier had one of the worlds best players and built a side around him, so therefore his style of play was decided by his personel.

F*ck me this debate's goin on for a while!!!

i think you're scrapin the barrel there now Stu to be honest. are you really sayin that football managers like Gerard Houllier are devoid of their own Football Philosophy?

he bought all of his players bar Michael Owen and Gerrard, plus the fact we didnt play like that before he came.

yes, he built his team around MIchael Owen, tell me why that means you have to play the way he did? is Michael Owen incapable of playing in a side which isnt so defensive? Did Gerard Houllier HAVE to sign Hyppia? even if he did, Hyppia would have still fared well in a non-defensive side with other players round him. but he bought Henchoz, he bought Babbel, he bought Riise, and everyone else. so tell me how thats havin to accommodate your existing personnel!!!!!!! he F*ckin Bought them all!!!!!!

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:02 pm

yes, he built his team around MIchael Owen, tell me why that means you have to play the way he did? is Michael Owen incapable of playing in a side which isnt so defensive? Did Gerard Houllier HAVE to sign Hyppia? even if he did, Hyppia would have still fared well in a non-defensive side with other players round him. but he bought Henchoz, he bought Babbel, he bought Riise, and everyone else. so tell me how thats havin to accommodate your existing personnel!!!!!!! he F*ckin Bought them all!!!!!!

Because Houllier, like many other managers out there believes that you have to play the way which suits your best players.

Owen was simply our best player by a country mile. So Houllier thought, why not build a side around him... Owen's best attributes where his ability to spring an offside trap, pace, finishing one on one with a keeper and reading his own teams passing. That means he's better at starting from a deep position where he can run onto a pass and use his pace, which would gte him one on one with a keeper. How many goals did Owen score like this? Thats my point...

He signed Hyypia after Henchoz. he was advised to sign Hyypia as he was a quality player, he watched him, liked what he saw and saw his potential. He will have also taken into account the level of Pace in the backline. But first and formost, he wanted a QUALITY player and thats what he got. He then signed Babbel a season later for nothing as he was quality, could play in the centre and also had a bit of pace.

The original plan was play sign Babbel in the centre with Hyypia, and Ziege and Carragher on the flanks. That would have added the pace we needed. However, down to injuries etc we ended up having to play Carragher, Hyypia, Henchoz and then Babbel. That worked and looked solid so Houllier stuck with it. We then started to defend deeper as we lacked pace but ALL were strong and dominant in the air and good tacklers, hard for people to get past.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you, Houllier knew about football tactics and how to set a tactic which suited your players, he built a side around Owen, signed a couple of quality players (the ones that were available and would improve the side) then he built a team around them.

by **jim_morrison_supported_liverpool** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:43 pm

i understand you perfectly well stu, but all that wasnt exclusive to Liverpool. how many interviews did we read on "Houllier's football Philosophy" and how many players came out and said "yes Houllier has explained his philosophy to us and thats what attracted us etc etc." its obviously the way he sees how a team should play and thought it was going to work, which it did, for a while. the original point though was that it works to a point but it will never win you the Prem title.

the way i understand his philosophy was that a team should be built on solid foundations which is an extremely organised defence and midfield which the oppostion find hard to break down, and the once that is in place, scoring goals can be worked on with buying the right players who can create. this is why players like Smicer failed. all the emphasis was on him to create the goals once the defensive unit was in place. but with this defensive unit in place its hard to get a team playing fluently when on the attack, and hard for an attacking mid to turn round to 11 players and find a way through.

we never played like that when Owen was there before Houllier, and Owen scored goals. Owen now plays for Real Madrid, and scores goals. you dont have to play the way we did to cater for Michael Owen to play well and score goals. he is a world class Striker that will go on scoring goals, in defensive sides and attacking ones. Houllier chose to build the team like that, as that was (is) his football philosophy.

by **115-1073096938** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:11 pm

Read it properly a**ewhole!!

by **JohnBull** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:38 pm

Stu - the problem is that no one seems to be doing their homework when buying players.

If I'm going to employ a brickie then there is no point in asking HIM if he can lay bricks You have to look at his past work and then say to yourself "is he the right one?"

Houllier signed players (as did Dalgliesh,Souness and Evans) thinking that THEY could turn sows ears into silk purses, in some cases not even realising that the signings WERE sows ears.

Look beyond the failings of a sad succession of second rate managers and ask yourself who put them in place, and more to the point WHY ?

There have been pockets lined with the clubs money, inexplicable signings that cannot be justified by any other conclusion than corruption.

This outgoing board has sold our silver and enjoyed 15 years of unearned luxury on the clubs profits that we are now paying for.

There was no "Houllier Plan" he was just another puppet to allow the ego trips by a pampered board.
The man had no plan just the belief that it would "all come out right" he was guessing throughout his reign.

Now I was not a believer in Benitez when his name first came up but my research and his results make me believe that, just as in the signing of Shankly in the 50s, we have accidentaly fallen on a nugget.I only hope we don't make any mistakes as the 50s board nearly did. It doesn't come up often but Shanks offered his resignation when the board sold Jonny Morrisey to Everton without Shank's knowledge or agreement.
They ****** ped themselves and agreed that it would NEVER happen again and the rest is history.

Stu - forget about Houllier and forget about the last 15 years- there is a real chance that we can start all over again.

by **115-1073096938** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:47 am

John, i agree, there is a chance, but if that chance includes selling Gerrard almighty..... then so be it!!!!

by **Santa** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:37 am

stu_the_red wrote:Owen was simply our best player by a country mile. So Houllier thought, why not build a side around him...

Build around Owen my @rse...he would have break the bank and got Duff long before Chelsea got him. He would have bought a couple of attacking minded midfielders to supply Owen with quality balls, instead he spent the money and got us Cheyrou, Diao, Biscan, Diarra, Troare, Luzi...the list goes on. He bought Diouf as a "killer" but played him out of position. And he got us Barmby and Heskey...nuff said!

Liverpool FC Forum

On the gerrard front, look at it this way...

Who is online