Liverpool FC Forum

This is not a knee jerk post but we seriously need to stop crumbling to pieces in the alarming manner that we do. 
Last season we led both Chelsea and City 1 nil away from home only to go in 2 - 1 down at half time in both games.
Pretty sure we also led Stoke and Swansea 2 - 0 only to go in 2 - 2 at half time.
Then there was Palace... the less i say on that the better. 

I just don't understand how we constantly crumble as easily as we do. 

Rodgers has got to find some kind of defensive shape / containment plan to use during games.  Even if its just for a 10 -15 minute period to kill some momentum and take the sting from the game.

Its not always possible to completely control a game for 90 minutes.  But the top teams in the world know how to get through that difficult 20 minute period and stay in a game.  Maybe they fake an injury to kill momentum.  Drop deeper.  Keep the ball at the back.

I've not kept on the ball with things over the summer (the World Cup depressed me) but can you tell me what the deal with Agger is? I'd have picked him ahead of Skrtel because I think he's more influential among other things. Is Agger leaving?

RedAnt » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:21 am wrote:I've not kept on the ball with things over the summer (the World Cup depressed me) but can you tell me what the deal with Agger is? I'd have picked him ahead of Skrtel because I think he's more influential among other things. Is Agger leaving?

BR has said Agger is injured at the moment

Thanks CardiffRed.

We do lack influence and composure. It's a good point by the OP. But we knew that before summer. The three goals Palace scored are the best evidence of this. I'd not blame everything on Johnson, but if we had a full back who could tackle we'd improve. I'm not sure his attacking game is good enough to balance his defensive deficiencies, and as they say, a team is only as strong as it's weakest member. I suspect our game plan will be largely based on outscoring the opposition again this year.

RedAnt » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:21 am wrote:I've not kept on the ball with things over the summer (the World Cup depressed me) but can you tell me what the deal with Agger is? I'd have picked him ahead of Skrtel because I think he's more influential among other things. Is Agger leaving?

He looked to be on his way out of the door mate but he picked up an injury. Looks like he's staying now.

Regarding the OP I think last night was more of a case of teething problems than anything else. That back line had never played before and at times it showed. The first and third goals in particular shouldn't have happened, they were gifts really.
I know it's not easy to get players in and the World Cup was another factor but I can't help feeling that this is the type of stuff that we should have been working on in pre season. Man City isn't the place to try out a brand new back line.
I do think we lack leadership as well, Gerrard has always been the type of captain that leads by example not words and when Carragher was in the side he was basically the de facto captain doing all the cajoling and organising.

We lack authority in the back 4. We need a spunky centre back who's going to run the back 4 like to concede a goal is worse than death. Agger, Skittle etc.. have no leadership. It's no coincidence some of our best leaders over the years came from the back 4, Ron Yates, Emlyn, Thommo, Sami + the likes of Hansen who was narky etc.. Cross any of those lads and you can picture them cursing the unfortunate offender etc.. Same with Kenny up front. Its not just tactics, it's getting hold of natural leaders to run their zones, hence folks say we've never properly replaced Souness bossing the centre of the field.

Stevie's a nice lad, inspirational at times but doesn't have an ounce of leadership in him.

I wasn't impressed with the so called leaders in the team when we conceded the first goal tbh. Okay Moreno made a mistake but the lad is 21, just arrived in a foreign country, been at the club a matter of days, can hardly speak English and he's making his debut away at the home of the champions.
When the goal went in Mingolet jumped up and went bezerk at the lad whilst the likes of Lovren, Skrtel and Gerrard just looked at the floor and walked away. Someone should have went over to the lad and told him it doesn't matter, it's only one goal and we'll easy get that back.
There are times when players need a rollicking from their team mates but considering what Alberto had on his plate yesterday that wasn't it.
A Souness or a Hughes would have told Mingolet to pipe down, put their arm around Moreno and said to the rest of the team let's get back into this for the lad, not turned their backs and walked away.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:36 am wrote:I wasn't impressed with the so called leaders in the team when we conceded the first goal tbh. Okay Moreno made a mistake but the lad is 21, just arrived in a foreign country, been at the club a matter of days, can hardly speak English and he's making his debut away at the home of the champions.
When the goal went in Mingolet jumped up and went bezerk at the lad whilst the likes of Lovren, Skrtel and Gerrard just looked at the floor and walked away. Someone should have went over to the lad and told him it doesn't matter, it's only one goal and we'll easy get that back.
There are times when players need a rollicking from their team mates but considering what Alberto had on his plate yesterday that wasn't it.
A Souness or a Hughes would have told Mingolet to pipe down, put their arm around Moreno and said to the rest of the team let's get back into this for the lad, not turned their backs and walked away.

im sure the lads where as gutted as us in the manner we conceeded.
moreno is a young lad and that was a hell of a game to be thrown into on your debut in a very tough league. all citys good stuff came down his side so imo starting him and coutinho on that side was a mistake by rodgers. he needed better protection in front of him and he didnt get it.
it wont be any easier against spudz as they will press us high and fast so he needs to pick himself up and go again.
lovren also needs to work hard as he loses his man and position far to easily. he had a hand in 2 of those goals last night and was the one who put moreno in that position because he couldnt deal with the pressure silva was putting on him. he should never have knocked it down like that.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:36 am wrote:I wasn't impressed with the so called leaders in the team when we conceded the first goal tbh. Okay Moreno made a mistake but the lad is 21, just arrived in a foreign country, been at the club a matter of days, can hardly speak English and he's making his debut away at the home of the champions.
When the goal went in Mingolet jumped up and went bezerk at the lad whilst the likes of Lovren, Skrtel and Gerrard just looked at the floor and walked away. Someone should have went over to the lad and told him it doesn't matter, it's only one goal and we'll easy get that back.
There are times when players need a rollicking from their team mates but considering what Alberto had on his plate yesterday that wasn't it.
A Souness or a Hughes would have told Mingolet to pipe down, put their arm around Moreno and said to the rest of the team let's get back into this for the lad, not turned their backs and walked away.

I'm sure BR would have put his arm around Moreno's shoulder and told him it was 'one of those things'. He more than made up for it later in the game, with some excellent tackles.

However, looking at the bigger picture, our defence is a work in progress. It's clear that BR doesn't rate Agger and if i'm honest I'd agree with him. He's not cut out for a top 4 side because he can't stay fit long enough to find form and stay in the team. For this reason alone i'd sell him.

As for the rest of the defence, I think we need to build with the young guns and let them gel. I think a back 4 of Moreno, Lovren, Sakho, Flanno/Manquillo is the way forward. Sadly, it'll take some time for them to come together, but it will happen the more they play together.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:36 am wrote:I wasn't impressed with the so called leaders in the team when we conceded the first goal tbh. Okay Moreno made a mistake but the lad is 21, just arrived in a foreign country, been at the club a matter of days, can hardly speak English and he's making his debut away at the home of the champions.
When the goal went in Mingolet jumped up and went bezerk at the lad whilst the likes of Lovren, Skrtel and Gerrard just looked at the floor and walked away. Someone should have went over to the lad and told him it doesn't matter, it's only one goal and we'll easy get that back.
There are times when players need a rollicking from their team mates but considering what Alberto had on his plate yesterday that wasn't it.
A Souness or a Hughes would have told Mingolet to pipe down, put their arm around Moreno and said to the rest of the team let's get back into this for the lad, not turned their backs and walked away.

Had Lovren not left a big gap between him and the fullback for the first goal(we are talking 3-5 yards to his left) he would have easily reached the ball to clear and there would hve been no need for Moreno to clear and thus screw up the clearance. It was Moreno who was caught flat footed but that situation would not have come had he Lovren positioned himself correctly. If Ming had any balls he would have been shouting at the true culprit which was Lovren. It is a shame because up until then we looked more likely to score and that would have changed the game. The third goal was Lovren's fault as he was on the wrong side of Aguerro, again basic positional error.

kazza » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:01 pm wrote:

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:36 am wrote:I wasn't impressed with the so called leaders in the team when we conceded the first goal tbh. Okay Moreno made a mistake but the lad is 21, just arrived in a foreign country, been at the club a matter of days, can hardly speak English and he's making his debut away at the home of the champions.
When the goal went in Mingolet jumped up and went bezerk at the lad whilst the likes of Lovren, Skrtel and Gerrard just looked at the floor and walked away. Someone should have went over to the lad and told him it doesn't matter, it's only one goal and we'll easy get that back.
There are times when players need a rollicking from their team mates but considering what Alberto had on his plate yesterday that wasn't it.
A Souness or a Hughes would have told Mingolet to pipe down, put their arm around Moreno and said to the rest of the team let's get back into this for the lad, not turned their backs and walked away.

Had Lovren not left a big gap between him and the fullback for the first goal(we are talking 3-5 yards to his left) he would have easily reached the ball to clear and there would hve been no need for Moreno to clear and thus screw up the clearance. It was Moreno who was caught flat footed but that situation would not have come had he Lovren positioned himself correctly. If Ming had any balls he would have been shouting at the true culprit which was Lovren. It is a shame because up until then we looked more likely to score and that would have changed the game. The third goal was Lovren's fault as he was on the wrong side of Aguerro, again basic positional error.

Gary Neville also pointed out that Gerrard was marking Silva but let him wander off which left Lovren in no mans land.
At the end of the day though if Moreno just wellies that ball into row z there's not a problem, it wasn't a difficult skill, any of us could have hoiked that ball out of the stadium never mind a pro footballer.
I was more making an observation about what happened after the ball went into the net as opposed to any post mortem on the goal itself.

I think the two things are different, the OP who rightly stated we threw leads away and last nights result after going one down.

I'd say last season we were slightly tactically naive when taking the lead and failed to control games without the ball - shape and organisation etc.

Last night, I thought we controlled those first 40 mins well when we didn't have the ball (shape, organisation, concentration etc) but after going one down I don't blame it on a lack of leadership. I think we quite simply were toothless. We never IMO looked to create/score (especially) when going forward, especially with Sturridge upfront on his own, it did change though once Lambert came on. I just don't think there was much fluency and creativity our team could muster last night in order for us to get back in it.

Yes we lack leadership in our back line but wasn't that the reason why Lovren was brought in?

I think the reason for yesterday's result is our ungelled back 4, consisting of a player who has only played two games for us and is expected to be a leader, a young lad that hardly even speaks the language yet, a fullback that we're better off without and a CB that has never and will never be a leader. Also, a keeper that rarely talks. Look no further than this, no need to go into over-analysis, this was why we were so poor defensively yesterday. I think we'll improve though and I think we'll do better against City when we face them again at Anfield. This game just came too early for us, that's all.

Even though the back 4 has changed we are still finding it hard to shake that habit of conceding at least 2 goals against any half decent side. It wasn't as if City had us under the cosh for most of the game either.
We conceded goals in pre season and now another 4 in just our opening 2 games. Why the hell do we concede so many?

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:56 pm wrote:Even though the back 4 has changed we are still finding it hard to shake that habit of conceding at least 2 goals against any half decent side. It wasn't as if City had us under the cosh for most of the game either.
We conceded goals in pre season and now another 4 in just our opening 2 games. Why the hell do we concede so many?

The annoying thing is we control games then when we let one in (normally via a mistake) the whole mentality of the team seems to collapse then we cannot seem to find that confidence again.