Liverpool FC Forum

by **JC_81** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:29 am

agree with you on this one yakka. good post.

by **Kenny Kan** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:18 pm

No. Replace Gerrard with Lucas and the problem will be three-fold.

Gerrard still offers us more in DM than Lucas (not sure about Can) but I'd have Can and Henderson alongside Gerrard no problem.

by **aCe'** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:22 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:54 pm wrote:I think this 'controlling the game from the quarterback position' is over hyped, how many times do we completely dominate the midfield from whistle to whistle? Even last season when we were running riot against teams that was mainly due to our forward line being ruthlessly efficient.
If we were constantly bossing the midfield during games there wouldn't be a problem but the fact remains that there have been too many games like last week where average teams force us onto the back foot.
Gerrard is a great passer but I'm not sure we need a deep lying QB in the side, when Alonso was spraying passes around from deep we didn't have many other creative players or players who could go past a man in the team, Rafa's side had a tremendous spine but the rest were very workman like so it was down to the players in that spine to make something happen.
But now we have creative players galore like Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic, Lallana etc and what they need is not someone behind them spraying 40 yard passes everywhere but someone behind them who will stop the opposition dragging them back to the edge of their own area on defensive duty where they don't want to be. Our creative players want someone behind them who will win the ball high up the pitch and someone who will build a platform that allows them to play in the opposition half, not our half.
Let's face it this QB position has been engineered for Gerrard because he hasn't got the legs to play anywhere else, sentiment is coming into our decision making.
Has Steven Gerrard been a great player? I don't think he has been a great player I think he has been our greatest player but no one no matter how good they are can avoid the effects of Father Time.

Again, I think you're failing to give Gerrard the credit he deserves for his contribution to our attacking game. Many sides who have very good attacking players fail to get these players in the game for one reason or the other. Look at the likes of ManUtd and even Arsenal and Tottenham in many games last season. Our style of play is largely dependent on transitioning the ball from the back to midfield and then exploiting the pace/skills of our forwards. The way many seem to describe Gerrard's role, you'd think a Tiote/Flamini would be a much more effective option to have which I think is quite laughable.

by **Kopite-Jud** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:04 pm

I wouldn't say 'problem' as such

I'd say trying to find a replacement for a top top leader and professional like he is and has been is the problem. A goal scoring CM with it all , leadership passing,dead ball freekicks and vision. Although he has lost the explosiveness that a 'box to box midfielder' needs, he has adapted and changed his game to dominate in a different role.

At 34 years old he does't have many years left at this level, but looking at stats from last season, more than a hand full of goals and assists to boot shows he isn't done yet.

We are undoubtedly a better team when he's in the starting 11 and who in the world could you replace him with? not many IMO.

THATS what matters.

by **Kopite-Jud** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:10 pm

if 13 goals and 10 assists from a 34 year old 'DCM' isn't good enough for you lot, then I don't know what is.

You're a hard bunch to please.

by **only me** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:13 pm

Kopite-Jud » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:04 pm wrote:I wouldn't say 'problem' as such

I'd say trying to find a replacement for a top top leader and professional like he is and has been is the problem. A goal scoring CM with it all , leadership passing,dead ball freekicks and vision. Although he has lost the explosiveness that a 'box to box midfielder' needs, he has adapted and changed his game to dominate in a different role.

At 34 years old he does't have many years left at this level, but looking at stats from last season, more than a hand full of goals and assists to boot shows he isn't done yet.

We are undoubtedly a better team when he's in the starting 11 and who in the world could you replace him with? not many IMO.

THATS what matters.

Forget the word problem. This is why i put it in commas. I agree that not Stevie is the issue but rather the manager and his ability to manage a delicate situation.
To me it's evident we have a gap in this position and we are forced to insert players to cover this gap instead of focusing on our strength ,issue has become even more highlighted as we brought players as Lallana and Markovic (And don't have a place for them).

I would try Allen or even maybe Hendo in Gerrard position and see how that works.

by **Kopite-Jud** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:24 pm

He has ability to dictate from that role like Scholes and Pirlo.

You cant under estimate the importance of that role. There isn't many people on the planet that can do that .

by **only me** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:27 pm

Kopite-Jud » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:24 pm wrote:He has ability to dictate from that role like Scholes and Pirlo.

You cant under estimate the importance of that role. There isn't many people on the planet that can do that .

The Role is crucial i agree but do you agree that due to his weakness in covering the defensive part BR inserts another player in defensive duties leading to us losing a MF with an attacking capabilities?

by **Boocity** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:44 pm

The problem is that Gerrard should not automatically be one of the first names on the team sheet, yes he still has a part to play but not in every EPL game we play, his experience will be vital in the UCL games but he should be used when his game will be effective in the EPL. Look at the way our MF was over run last week against Southampton, ok, Lucas was to blame as well but BR should pick the best team suitable for each game and not just put SG on the sheet based on reputation, club captain etc. Managers have to be ruthless for the good of the team, Paisley was, Fergie was and look where it got them. you only have to look at the England team and see how sentimentallity and a players name and reputation has hurt Englands chances over the years.

by **Kopite-Jud** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:57 pm

No

I believe dictating a game is more crucial than someone that has 'legs' to cover.

I think your point is emphasised by how sh!t Lucas was last weekend, making our midfield look lacklustre.

Mingolet

Lovren Skrtel

Johnson Gerrard Moreno

Hendo Can

Sterling Coutinho

Sturridge

Will probably be the team to play City tomorrow. Maybe Allen instead of Can but Can's size V Toure could be key.

I do see you're point though he has put Coutinho in CM at times instead of Lucas/Allen to accommodate Suarez and Sturridge up front together. I remember he did this againt Villa at home last season and Gerrard was very exposed, we got killed until Lucas came on to bolster the midfield.

But after this Villa game it didn't happen again. I think Gerrard has adapted better to this role since then, he looked a little lost at first.

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:25 pm

Kopite-Jud » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:10 pm wrote:if 13 goals and 10 assists from a 34 year old 'DCM' isn't good enough for you lot, then I don't know what is.

You're a hard bunch to please.

The point is that we don't need our DM's to create and score goals, we have got other players who can do that, we need our DM's to just do their main job which is protecting the back 4 and winning the midfield battle which is something they don't do well enough.
Gerrard is not positionally aware enough or athletic enough to ever be a top class DM, as long as he is in the side we will always have defensive issue's and whilst he is there that high intensity pressing game Brendan spoke about when he first arrived will just be a pipe dream.
Why are we building our team around a 34 year old? Sentiment that's why, it's certainly not for footballing reasons.

by **aCe'** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:04 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:25 pm wrote:
Kopite-Jud » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:10 pm wrote:if 13 goals and 10 assists from a 34 year old 'DCM' isn't good enough for you lot, then I don't know what is.

You're a hard bunch to please.

The point is that we don't need our DM's to create and score goals, we have got other players who can do that, we need our DM's to just do their main job which is protecting the back 4 and winning the midfield battle which is something they don't do well enough.
Gerrard is not positionally aware enough or athletic enough to ever be a top class DM, as long as he is in the side we will always have defensive issue's and whilst he is there that high intensity pressing game Brendan spoke about when he first arrived will just be a pipe dream.
Why are we building our team around a 34 year old? Sentiment that's why, it's certainly not for footballing reasons.

Again, you seem to be completely dismissing the fact that Gerrard gets more touches than anyone else in the starting 11 and is a huge part of the reason why the players upfront get the ball in the spaces/times they do. His pass percentage is very high given his propensity to playing the long pass, but again that doesnt seem to figure in the criteria you judge him on.

Theres no disputing your arguments Yakka, but there isnt a player in world football that I know of who is as effective as Gerrard is in dictating the game and passing the ball while being significantly better than Gerrard at tracking back, covering runners, and protecting the back4. Alonso is probably the closest in terms of role and overall ability but I wouldnt take him over Gerrard with all things considered.

By your definition of the role Yakka and your criteria, someone like Pirlo must be a complete liability. Doesnt score, doesnt get assists, cant track a runner or protect the backline to save his life, they have others who create in the side, etc.

Like I said earlier, Gerrard (his role) is as important as anything we have in the lineup. Play a Lucas, Flamini, or even a Ramirez type and the side will struggle to play the sort of attacking play we saw last season. Might make us a slightly better defensive outfit but it wont get us any closer to winning the title than focusing on out attacking game would.

by **RedAnt** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:08 pm

A better full back than Johnson would help. Someone who can do the defensive side better. But so far there's not much to worry on. We won out first game. Those are never easy and both teams are bang up for it. I'm happy to see how things go for the moment. There's a lot more needs to be seen before we know. In ten games we'll see how the new lads bed in, and how the rest adapt. I think all agree that Gerrard is still a vital player for us.

by **kazza** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:53 pm

Gerrard is a "problem" but it is due to finding a replacement for him in a seamless manner. We should not be thinking about this season but next and thereafter, because he will retire sooner rather than later. This season should be treated as the start of life without Gerrard so that when he does retire we do not suffer a bigger shock. To keep playing him until he hurts us then go looking to replace him is short term thinking at best. Gerrard is a legend but the club is bigger and will roll on, how we address the problem this season will show how forward thinking the manager is. It may be Hendo or Can or maybe someone we have not bought yet but whoever it is we need to get him ready.

I actually think by leaving him out of the side and adding a creative player the team will be better, both defensively and offensivly. Can and Hendo could form a strong, energetic and solid partnership in the middle giving room for another attacking player, I'd rather see that.

by **damjan193** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:00 pm

Interesting debate (that's been a long time coming) and some very interesting arguments, especially by yakka and ace.

I don't have a lot to add to what's already been said. I'm a bit on the fence with this one. I mean, it's obvious, Gerrard's lack of mobility is evident and it IS a problem as we saw against Soton. But I think some of you are disregarding his contribution a bit too easily. How can someone deny that he's our best passer and best set-piece taker is beyond me. He might be the best in the league, never mind our team. I also think that it's a bit silly to say that his job to distribute the ball from the back is "unneeded". I think it's absolutely crucial to have such a player if you want to play from the back like we do. And it's not all about his passing. Some of you might find it a bit.. pathetic, but I believe that his status as a legend and his leadership qualities have a big influence to the rest of the team.

But the fact that he can't protect the back 4 is undeniable and it's causing us problems. It's not a form problem, it's more of an age problem, which unfortunately can't be fixed, so it's time we start thinking about easing him out of the team and finding ways to play without him. But for now, I think the best way to play with him would be to have two very athletic central midfielders (Hendo and Can) in front of him who will make up for Gerrard's lack of athleticism. It works for Juventus, it will work for us.

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