Liverpool FC Forum

RedAnt » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:57 pm wrote:

RED BEERGOGGLES » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:43 pm wrote:

RedAnt » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:22 pm wrote:I'm not comparing Lucas to Gerrard. I added input to comparisons others made, and others have had input into. I've said again and again that Gerrard needs a break. But RBG, you are suggesting Gerrard's past it by saying you'd like him to go out on a high, unless you're referring to the smaller scale of matches rather than career, then my mistake.

It seems that some defend Lucas to the point where he's now up against Gerrard. As said, they're a different class. Lucas will never dominate matches. He won't score many. He's a one trick pony, whereas Gerrard is complete.

Why though do Lucas defenders never address his obvious flaws? Why suggest I don't appreciate his input when I've backed him time and again?

The bottom line is Lucas is good at what he does, sometimes. But there are players out there who are excellent at what they do and more, often. Whilst I appreciate Lucas for his work rate, his loyalty and his bravery, I think we could have higher aspirations, whilst keeping Lucas as a player but realising he has an extremely narrow repertoire.

I really think your jumping to conclusions there kid ,I have never refuted the fact that Gerrard on his day is one of the finest midfielder's Ive seen in a red
shirt,but currently he is doing nothing in the last 45 mins to aid our progression or indeed to collect three points. I will again reiterate what I have earlier
stated concerning Lucas .(often for some it tends to be to the point of regurgitation )I think Lucas follows Rodgers game plan as exactly as is plausible ,he
is there to disrupt any passage of play that's evolving in the centre ,he is there to constantly close down the opposition .......something Gerrard seems to
have developed an aversion to exacting.

I'm finding it really hard to believe that posters are more than willing to deflect the attention off Gerrards weak arse and dispirited performances by heaping the blame on a player whose absence we simply couldn't cope with when he was injured last season...... and along with the energy of Henderson
has probably been the prime reason we have held strong against our first four opponents in our pathetic second half displays when we have invited concerted
pressure on to our back four.

Actually we agree on plenty of points, but I think you're missing mine. And my response is aimed at a more general crowd, including Benny.

I don't entirely blame Lucas for SG's poor form. I blame many things, including Gerrard. I understand that you think Lucas fits the role, but where is the harm in having competition? If one midfielder can tackle but can't pass, why is it so hard to see the sense in a player who can do both being a better option? Lucas has good attributes, yes, but any manager in the world would like a better player.

But for all your Lucas trumpet blowing, and whilst acknowledging SG is vital but playing poorly, could you give your opinions on the free kicks he gives away? The yellow cards, misplaced passes and poor movement?

And also consider that a midfielder who can win the ball, then play it, I'd ultimately a better than one who can only win it. Especially true for a player in Lucas' role, since attack is the best form of defence.

BR likes to keep possession, so I'm not sure he is the perfect player.

Lucas had the best pass completion on both sides last night - is that not an illustration on keeping possession ?

Yes he does give away silly free kicks and collects yellow cards - would like to see an improvement in those areas

But he also gets throw a tremendous amount of tackles - again the stat shows more than any other players in his role in the prem.

It appears BR thinks he is the player for the role. And Lucas can pass - it may not be Alonso 40 yard cross field passes but to say he can't pass is false

[/quote]


Sorry but when did BR say that Allen was signed as a replacement for Lucas ? Sorry but that's rubbish - Allen was bought to be part of a three alongside Gerrard and Lucas.

And again who has said that Lucas can't be trusted to hold the fort ? Think you need to read the article I posted early and it includes BR own words about the role of Lucas. Any pass that is completed is effective.[/quote]

It's not Rubbish it's pretty simple, Allen was to play alongside Gerrard ,with 2 wingers and 2 forwards ,not that complicated.
Lucas can't hold the fort and that is why SG drops deeper ,I don't care about the article ,I see it day in day out for years now.

Any pass that is completed is effective? hmm ,not if it goes back ,not if it's for 2 feet ,not if it delays the flow of the game or it allows the other team defense to organize. Last year Lucas was able to pass effectively forward and shift the balance to the other teams ground ,that is what a CM should do ,i'm afraid he isn't able to do it on a consistent basis.

RedAnt » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:57 pm wrote:Actually we agree on plenty of points, but I think you're missing mine. And my response is aimed at a more general crowd, including Benny.

I don't entirely blame Lucas for SG's poor form. I blame many things, including Gerrard. I understand that you think Lucas fits the role, but where is the harm in having competition? If one midfielder can tackle but can't pass, why is it so hard to see the sense in a player who can do both being a better option? Lucas has good attributes, yes, but any manager in the world would like a better player.

But for all your Lucas trumpet blowing, and whilst acknowledging SG is vital but playing poorly, could you give your opinions on the free kicks he gives away? The yellow cards, misplaced passes and poor movement?

And also consider that a midfielder who can win the ball, then play it, I'd ultimately a better than one who can only win it. Especially true for a player in Lucas' role, since attack is the best form of defence.

BR likes to keep possession, so I'm not sure he is the perfect player.

You're describing an on form Gerrard there lad ,but currently he's not doing the two things you listed . Lucas's game is entirely different and what he's
been brought in to do he does . As for defining just exactly what Lucas's deficiencies are and what his talents are, Ive done that since the lad joined
you only have to trawl through this very thread to see just how many posters I've argued vociferously against  their inability to see the lads potential.

I honestly feel like this debate is old hat now ,and I honestly thought Lucas's days as a scapegoat on this forum would be well and truly over....obviously
I didn't take into account posters respective tunnel vision.

RED BEERGOGGLES » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:27 pm wrote:

RedAnt » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:57 pm wrote:Actually we agree on plenty of points, but I think you're missing mine. And my response is aimed at a more general crowd, including Benny.

I don't entirely blame Lucas for SG's poor form. I blame many things, including Gerrard. I understand that you think Lucas fits the role, but where is the harm in having competition? If one midfielder can tackle but can't pass, why is it so hard to see the sense in a player who can do both being a better option? Lucas has good attributes, yes, but any manager in the world would like a better player.

But for all your Lucas trumpet blowing, and whilst acknowledging SG is vital but playing poorly, could you give your opinions on the free kicks he gives away? The yellow cards, misplaced passes and poor movement?

And also consider that a midfielder who can win the ball, then play it, I'd ultimately a better than one who can only win it. Especially true for a player in Lucas' role, since attack is the best form of defence.

BR likes to keep possession, so I'm not sure he is the perfect player.

You're describing an on form Gerrard there lad ,but currently he's not doing the two things you listed . Lucas's game is entirely different and what he's
been brought in to do he does . As for defining just exactly what Lucas's deficiencies are and what his talents are, Ive done that since the lad joined
you only have to trawl through this very thread to see just how many posters I've argued vociferously against  their inability to see the lads potential.

I honestly feel like this debate is old hat now ,and I honestly thought Lucas's days as a scapegoat on this forum would be well and truly over....obviously
I didn't take into account posters respective tunnel vision.

What potential mate? likes a tackle and works hard? The question I usually ask myself what does he offer as a midfielder and I do compare him to players who played in the same position like Hamann, Alonso, etc... he isn't better than any of them. Yes a good player, but if we want to go places we need a better player who can offer more than tackles and hard work

RED BEERGOGGLES » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:27 pm wrote:

RedAnt » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:57 pm wrote:Actually we agree on plenty of points, but I think you're missing mine. And my response is aimed at a more general crowd, including Benny.

I don't entirely blame Lucas for SG's poor form. I blame many things, including Gerrard. I understand that you think Lucas fits the role, but where is the harm in having competition? If one midfielder can tackle but can't pass, why is it so hard to see the sense in a player who can do both being a better option? Lucas has good attributes, yes, but any manager in the world would like a better player.

But for all your Lucas trumpet blowing, and whilst acknowledging SG is vital but playing poorly, could you give your opinions on the free kicks he gives away? The yellow cards, misplaced passes and poor movement?

And also consider that a midfielder who can win the ball, then play it, I'd ultimately a better than one who can only win it. Especially true for a player in Lucas' role, since attack is the best form of defence.

BR likes to keep possession, so I'm not sure he is the perfect player.

You're describing an on form Gerrard there lad ,but currently he's not doing the two things you listed . Lucas's game is entirely different and what he's
been brought in to do he does . As for defining just exactly what Lucas's deficiencies are and what his talents are, Ive done that since the lad joined
you only have to trawl through this very thread to see just how many posters I've argued vociferously against  their inability to see the lads potential.

I honestly feel like this debate is old hat now ,and I honestly thought Lucas's days as a scapegoat on this forum would be well and truly over....obviously
I didn't take into account posters respective tunnel vision.

Liverpool will never win a league title with players like Lucas as a regular. He's not good enough, never has been, never will be. The lad isn't being made a scape goat either. People are just sick of certain fans championing a player, who quite frankly is a mid table premier league player. We all know what the lad does, we all know he gives 110% and is "a great professional". Its not clever and big to suggest "no one appreciates him because he does the ugly stuff" (another media bull Sh*t line). He generally does give everything, but the fact remains, he just isn't that good. Can he pass? He's ok, can he tackle, fairly well, can he run? Wouldn't say its a strong point, can he head? No, can he dribble? Not even three touches, can he spot a long pass? Not really...

Of Henderson and Lucas, he's the better player... unfortunately, neither are anything like good enough to get us at least back into the champions league.

metalhead » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:36 pm wrote:

RED BEERGOGGLES » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:27 pm wrote:

RedAnt » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:57 pm wrote:Actually we agree on plenty of points, but I think you're missing mine. And my response is aimed at a more general crowd, including Benny.

I don't entirely blame Lucas for SG's poor form. I blame many things, including Gerrard. I understand that you think Lucas fits the role, but where is the harm in having competition? If one midfielder can tackle but can't pass, why is it so hard to see the sense in a player who can do both being a better option? Lucas has good attributes, yes, but any manager in the world would like a better player.

But for all your Lucas trumpet blowing, and whilst acknowledging SG is vital but playing poorly, could you give your opinions on the free kicks he gives away? The yellow cards, misplaced passes and poor movement?

And also consider that a midfielder who can win the ball, then play it, I'd ultimately a better than one who can only win it. Especially true for a player in Lucas' role, since attack is the best form of defence.

BR likes to keep possession, so I'm not sure he is the perfect player.

You're describing an on form Gerrard there lad ,but currently he's not doing the two things you listed . Lucas's game is entirely different and what he's
been brought in to do he does . As for defining just exactly what Lucas's deficiencies are and what his talents are, Ive done that since the lad joined
you only have to trawl through this very thread to see just how many posters I've argued vociferously against  their inability to see the lads potential.

I honestly feel like this debate is old hat now ,and I honestly thought Lucas's days as a scapegoat on this forum would be well and truly over....obviously
I didn't take into account posters respective tunnel vision.

What potential mate? likes a tackle and works hard? The question I usually ask myself what does he offer as a midfielder and I do compare him to players who played in the same position like Hamann, Alonso, etc... he isn't better than any of them. Yes a good player, but if we want to go places we need a better player who can offer more than tackles and hard work

The question is though mate - who is that better player that we can attract currently ?

I compare him more to Makele as a player - he wasn't blessed with great creative skill or pace or raking 30 yard passes , he gave away silly free kicks and yellow cards , passed the ball 5 yards sideways yet was often said by Maureen to be the most important player in the squad because he allowed others to express themselves by doing the hard work

This is what Perez the Madrid Chairman said about Makalele

“ We will not miss Makélelé. His technique is average, he lacks the speed and skill to take the ball past opponents, and ninety percent of his distribution either goes backwards or sideways. He wasn't a header of the ball and he rarely passed the ball more than three metres. Younger players will arrive who will cause Makélelé to be forgotten.[5] ”

StuYesThatStu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:39 pm wrote:[

Liverpool will never win a league title with players like Lucas as a regular. He's not good enough, never has been, never will be. The lad isn't being made a scape goat either. People are just sick of certain fans championing a player, who quite frankly is a mid table premier league player. We all know what the lad does, we all know he gives 110% and is "a great professional". Its not clever and big to suggest "no one appreciates him because he does the ugly stuff" (another media bull Sh*t line). He generally does give everything, but the fact remains, he just isn't that good. Can he pass? He's ok, can he tackle, fairly well, can he run? Wouldn't say its a strong point, can he head? No, can he dribble? Not even three touches, can he spot a long pass? Not really...

Of Henderson and Lucas, he's the better player... unfortunately, neither are anything like good enough to get us at least back into the champions league.

Every team needs a player the calibre of Lucas lad ,its fucking amazing how much you see in regards to a players overall ability ,yet you simply omit
from any of your appraisals just to what extent Gerrard has become a fucking  liability...... I would take Lucas over any other defensive midfielder
currently in the Premiership ,and you can muster as many as those stupid fucking  compilations of players you propose to be better suited to our game.
Whilst tiresomely omitting the fact we need a midfielder to replace Gerrard,because the fella is rank at the minute ,and currently stinking the place out more
than Helen Flanagan knickers..............oops got a movement there 

Benny The Noon » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:24 pm wrote:

red till i die!! » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:20 pm wrote:if i was rodgers id consider dropping both, the 2 of em are stinking the place out playing together. gerrard clearly could do with a spell on the bench but rodgers wouldnt have the balls to do it, he has clearly lost pace where as lucas never had it to begin with and has always looked wrecked in the second half of games.
we can all see how poor they end up playing but you would have to wonder if the man in charge see's it also and what he will do about it.

Drop them for who though ?

That's another problem - we have no options to replace them with

we have options, not natural options but they are there.
id give that llori lad a shot in place of one of them, allen is there also and if needs be sakho or agger.
you wouldnt have to replace both, start gerrard with llori and then introduce lucas when he tires or vice versa.  he could use allen from the bench either and better rotation would stand us better in the latter stages when we begin to tire.

That's not viable options though is it - that's playing players out of position and one who hasn't even kicked a ball in the prem

Allen is currently injured I understand and he is the one player who could come in as opposed to playing centre backs there

Benny The Noon » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:08 pm wrote:That's not viable options though is it - that's playing players out of position and one who hasn't even kicked a ball in the prem

Allen is currently injured I understand and he is the one player who could come in as opposed to playing centre backs there

he has no problem playing players out of position and has done it often. 
they are not solutions benny but a fix for a game or 2 while said players get a rest or sort themselves out, one or the other. if rodgers isnt willing to play llori then he shouldnt have bought him. the lad has to get a game sometime or else he will never kick a ball in the league.
whats your solution then to get 90 minutes and a top performance out of them ?

red till i die!! » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:53 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:08 pm wrote:That's not viable options though is it - that's playing players out of position and one who hasn't even kicked a ball in the prem

Allen is currently injured I understand and he is the one player who could come in as opposed to playing centre backs there

he has no problem playing players out of position and has done it often. 
they are not solutions benny but a fix for a game or 2 while said players get a rest or sort themselves out, one or the other. if rodgers isnt willing to play llori then he shouldnt have bought him. the lad has to get a game sometime or else he will never kick a ball in the league.
whats your solution then to get 90 minutes and a top performance out of them ?

Are they are a fix ? They are CB's - Ilori was bought as a CB and one for the future. Square pegs in round holes - the position that Lucas plays is quite specific and one that BR has explained before.

The problem is we are stuck with them or we give Alberto a go - i would recall Coady and give him a go. Allen getting fit would allow Gerrard to be rested.

And it should be a priority signing in the winter - i worry that BR doesnt see the problem

Benny The Noon » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:11 pm wrote:

red till i die!! » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:53 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:08 pm wrote:That's not viable options though is it - that's playing players out of position and one who hasn't even kicked a ball in the prem

Allen is currently injured I understand and he is the one player who could come in as opposed to playing centre backs there

he has no problem playing players out of position and has done it often. 
they are not solutions benny but a fix for a game or 2 while said players get a rest or sort themselves out, one or the other. if rodgers isnt willing to play llori then he shouldnt have bought him. the lad has to get a game sometime or else he will never kick a ball in the league.
whats your solution then to get 90 minutes and a top performance out of them ?

Are they are a fix ? They are CB's - Ilori was bought as a CB and one for the future. Square pegs in round holes - the position that Lucas plays is quite specific and one that BR has explained before.

The problem is we are stuck with them or we give Alberto a go - i would recall Coady and give him a go. Allen getting fit would allow Gerrard to be rested.

And it should be a priority signing in the winter - i worry that BR doesnt see the problem

he obviously doesnt.
they are alternatives, a stop gap, a game maybe 2, ideal would be having everyone fit and giving 100%. surely your not saying brendan has never tried a square peg in a hole before. rodgers also spoke about players being adaptable and performing multiple roles for the team. rodgers says a lot of stuff that doesnt reflect reality so i tend to take it with a pinch of salt.
he let coady go on loan and he probably cant recall him either if he wanted to, which i doubt he does. i mentioned llori as i though he had played DM before. id have thought we would have seen more of alberto by now being used as a regular sub, maybe rodgers doesnt have the confidence to let him loose yet.
the fact is that he needed to address this in the summer and chose not to, so there is no guarantee he will in january either.

I think the main problem will be that BR doesn't see a problem in the middle and also doesn't appear to like the type of players we are missing.

There were a number of players that could have been bought - Wanyama and Eriksen are two we could have got instead of Alberto and Aspas and also kept Suso - that would have instantly improved our midfield options.

A good ol' Lucas debate.

Here's the thing, to some extent I agree with point raised by both sides. I've tipped Lucas to be our MVP, and 5 games on I dont think I'd want to change my vote. He's the sort of player who will give you a 6.5/10 performance week in week out. Very specific in what he does, and over the last couple of years he's improved in the 2 or 3 things he does best. Now, the key point for me that many people need to understand or better emphasize is the importance of the ROLE that Lucas plays rather than the player himself. It is the very reason I picked him to be our MVP and if Allen was our starter in his place (which is something I think we should try at some point) then I'd tip him to be the most valuable player in the side too.

His position allows him more touches than anyone else on the pitch. That alone negates any argument that his passing, technique, first touch or overall attacking influence is not of big importance to his game. It is. If we had a Carrick, Toure, or Dembele (3 very different players who can play a similar role in a different way) in the side, we'd look a much more established side especially when going forward. Defensively, theres no denying the influence that Lucas has on the side. That said, most top sides in the league DO NOT play limited players such as Lucas, Mikel, and Javi Garcia in their starting 11 week in week out. Utd have Carrick-Cleverly/Fellaini, Chelsea have Lampard-Ramirez, Arsenal have Wilshere-Ramsey/Arteta, City have Toure-Fernandinho, Tottenham have Dembele-Paulinho, even Everton are now moving towards defending better as a team rather than having one destroyer in the middle of the park who contributes next to nothing from an attacking perspective. And I wouldn't call Lucas a destroyer either. Comparing him to the likes of Makelele is criminal. Yes they both contribute little going forward but Makelele read the game (defensively) better than any other midfielder I've seen. He played in sides that had some of the best attacking talent and his supreme defensive skills meant that such players could be afforded that extra freedom going forward. Same can't be said about Lucas. Similar in style, yes. But different in quality.

Regardless, the criticism that Lucas gets in unwarranted imo. Everyone knows what he contributes and what he doesnt. Given what we have, he might be the best option for the role he's given. Players like Henderson and Allen have failed to impress when given the chance down the middle of the park and Lucas at the very least gives us that added protection at the back. He's become integral to the side by elimination rather than performances, but either way, he is.

aCe' » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:37 pm wrote:A good ol' Lucas debate.

Here's the thing, to some extent I agree with point raised by both sides. I've tipped Lucas to be our MVP, and 5 games on I dont think I'd want to change my vote. He's the sort of player who will give you a 6.5/10 performance week in week out. Very specific in what he does, and over the last couple of years he's improved in the 2 or 3 things he does best. Now, the key point for me that many people need to understand or better emphasize is the importance of the ROLE that Lucas plays rather than the player himself. It is the very reason I picked him to be our MVP and if Allen was our starter in his place (which is something I think we should try at some point) then I'd tip him to be the most valuable player in the side too.

His position allows him more touches than anyone else on the pitch. That alone negates any argument that his passing, technique, first touch or overall attacking influence is not of big importance to his game. It is. If we had a Carrick, Toure, or Dembele (3 very different players who can play a similar role in a different way) in the side, we'd look a much more established side especially when going forward. Defensively, theres no denying the influence that Lucas has on the side. That said, most top sides in the league DO NOT play limited players such as Lucas, Mikel, and Javi Garcia in their starting 11 week in week out. Utd have Carrick-Cleverly/Fellaini, Chelsea have Lampard-Ramirez, Arsenal have Wilshere-Ramsey/Arteta, City have Toure-Fernandinho, Tottenham have Dembele-Paulinho, even Everton are now moving towards defending better as a team rather than having one destroyer in the middle of the park who contributes next to nothing from an attacking perspective. And I wouldn't call Lucas a destroyer either. Comparing him to the likes of Makelele is criminal. Yes they both contribute little going forward but Makelele read the game (defensively) better than any other midfielder I've seen. He played in sides that had some of the best attacking talent and his supreme defensive skills meant that such players could be afforded that extra freedom going forward. Same can't be said about Lucas. Similar in style, yes. But different in quality.

Regardless, the criticism that Lucas gets in unwarranted imo. Everyone knows what he contributes and what he doesnt. Given what we have, he might be the best option for the role he's given. Players like Henderson and Allen have failed to impress when given the chance down the middle of the park and Lucas at the very least gives us that added protection at the back. He's become integral to the side by elimination rather than performances, but either way, he is.

Totally agree ACE, given to what we have right now he is a good player, but to put him up as one of the top midfielders in the league is silly IMO. If we ever want to challenge for titles or at least top 3 then he isn't the answer and we need to look for more of an established midfielder who can offer more than just defense, and frankly Lucas would be a decent squad player to have in the team