Liverpool FC Forum

I personally believe replacing Gerrard after the first half and then moving Henderson into the middle would give us a lot more energy
to at least formulate the odd tackle or interception,I actually think Henderson has added this to his game ,and is also showing a marked
improvement with his positioning.

Lets face facts here ,we all would seriously like to know the reason behind Rodgers insistence in playing Gerrard for the full 90 mins.
Its at times like these the players might be looking at each other perplexed as to why this persistent opting for a player who when
seemingly exhausted in a challenging for the ball sense ,would sooner bang a 'Hollywood ball' 40 yards up the pitch ,which results
in more often than not gifting our opponents possession than play a simple ball and risking it coming back.

I watched Gerrard Monday night  ,and at least 9 or 10 of the balls I described above went astray or out of play ,its the same every game
as soon as the second half comes we're hemmed back and what little possession we obtain is squandered with a ball that could be
called unlucky if you're success rate is 3 out of 7 ,but 2 out of 12 makes it a wee bit of a liability.

I think like other posters have said I would prefer Moses to be used as an impact sub ,at least if he comes off the bench our opponents
cant play the whole second half with the emphasis firmly on attack.....

I think Suarez will change the dynamic of the team when he returns ,but in the meantime we seriously need to give Lucas someone
with a similar amount of energy......Even If its only for the last 30 mins.

I personally believe we need to spend BIG on a Gerrard replacement in January. Surely the man knows it himself. Can't see who might be a) available then and b) who the right candidate might be.
I'm hoping BR & Co. are looking around.

aCe' » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:33 am wrote:Here's something to be considered. I think Gerrard has been doing more defensively than many seem to give him credit for. I think at times, he carries Lucas and is the one bursting a gut to get on the other side of a running midfielder. For me, as a manager, if you're concerned about the stamina of your central midfielders then you try to get a hold of the ball rather than sit back and invite pressure and give your holding midfielders more running to do. It's common sense. I dont buy for a second that Rodgers would want us playing the counter home and away in the second half of games. It's nonsense and bad management on his part whether he said he did it intentionally or not. It has cost us two points and we were lucky it didnt cost us more. Outisde Moses and the largely ineffective Sterling, we dont have much pace in the side. Our tempo is too slow and our players without Suarez (or Gerrard playing further up) arent suited to that system. Possession has become our beread and butter and the only alternative option we have in the side is Victor Moses. He isnt a top quality player and he's unlikely to be a major influence in the game but he offers something different. You look at all the side competing for a top4 spot and they all have different options and different systems/tactics that they can use within games. We desperately lack in that department. It was very obvious against Swansea that in the second half, they pushed their backline further up and made some tactical changes that Rodgers couldnt respond to. Whether its the personnel or the tactics that were the problem is irrelevant, the fact remains that for the 5th game (4th league) in a row, we fail to adjust to changes made by the opposition.

I think Gerrard on the bench in any game is a recipe for disaster. To some extent, same could be said about Coutinho. Gerrard's passing creates chances from deeper and Coutinho's dribbling and vision give us an outlet further up the pitch where the ball isn't lost right away. Both are vital especially given our deficiencies. What I would recommend is players like Aspas and Henderson making way. Both do very little in attacking terms when we dont have possession and I'd much rather have Moses and Allen/Alberto in there attempting something different.

100% agree. Deluded is the correct word for people thinking this is deliberate. Defending through possession and control is what Rodgers is all about. Much the same way all the great sides are built. The problem is we aren't a great side, we're a decent side trying to play like a great side. At times it will work, at times it won't. Liverpool don't have the quality to counter attack effectively.

There is also a definate fitness issue with a couple of players at the moment, Sturridge, Lucas and Coutinho (before the shoulder injury) to name a few.

bunglemark2 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:00 pm wrote:I personally believe we need to spend BIG on a Gerrard replacement in January. Surely the man knows it himself. Can't see who might be a) available then and b) who the right candidate might be.
I'm hoping BR & Co. are looking around.

Lallana, he wouldn't cost the earth and would leave us more money to strengthen the place next to him aswell for when Gerrard eventually does retire.

Just bin Gerrard off, he's *****. Don't know why anyone ever thought he was any good in the first place.

And that Suarez, f*ck, he's just a trouble maker him, get rid of him aswell.

Get more players like Lucas, Henderson and Sturridge in the team, thats why will take us forward... f*ck all the class players off and replace them with average ones. Happy days!!!

StuYesThatStu » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:43 pm wrote:Just bin Gerrard off, he's *****. Don't know why anyone ever thought he was any good in the first place.

And that Suarez, f*ck, he's just a trouble maker him, get rid of him aswell.

Get more players like Lucas, Henderson and Sturridge in the team, thats why will take us forward... f*ck all the class players off and replace them with average ones. Happy days!!!

The Stu and Benny show hits a new low....
Jesus wept...

StuYesThatStu » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:43 pm wrote:Just bin Gerrard off, he's *****. Don't know why anyone ever thought he was any good in the first place.

People are not saying that, but he has seen better days.

He's better playing behind the front two, so not much legwork during a match.

Hustler 2 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:01 pm wrote:

StuYesThatStu » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:43 pm wrote:Just bin Gerrard off, he's *****. Don't know why anyone ever thought he was any good in the first place.

People are not saying that, but he has seen better days.

He's better playing behind the front two, so not much legwork during a match.

Are you on the wind up again?

Playing behind the front two is not the role for Gerrard ! He would need just as much legs up there than he would playing where he is now. Gerrard worked there once playing with Torres - he slipped balls into the channels for Torres to pounce on - it worked because we had Torres. We don't have Torres.

Gerrard isn't the same dynamic box to box centre mid he used to be but he is still is vital to the midfield.

We need to add strength and power into that midfield to help Gerrard and Lucas.

StuYesThatStu » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:43 pm wrote:Just bin Gerrard off, he's *****. Don't know why anyone ever thought he was any good in the first place.

And that Suarez, f*ck, he's just a trouble maker him, get rid of him aswell.

Get more players like Lucas, Henderson and Sturridge in the team, thats why will take us forward... f*ck all the class players off and replace them with average ones. Happy days!!!

gerrard is the best player i`ve ever seen in a red shirt but father time catches up with everyone, he`s 33 now and had some career threatening injuries too which cant have helped his mobility, he`s still got a lot to offer but i think the days where he is a cast iron, nailed on starter are drawing to a close.
a lot of his contemporaries like scholes, giggs, lampard etc all learned to adapt by playing less games as they got older, i think gerrard is entering that phase of his career now himself.
if he jibbed the national team he may extend his club career a bit (he could have been resting over the past couple of weeks instead of flying off to the ukraine) but i cant see him doing that in a world cup year.

Some of the opinions are mind boggling to say the least. For me, some of the suggestions (solutions) go completely against the issue (problem) that we seek to solve. Having a destroyer in the side or a Mascherano type of player isnt going to help us keep possession better or push higher up the pitch in the second half. If anything, you'd need the opposite type of player to do that.Our problems in the second half are in offense not defense. If we had a Garcia or Coutinho type of player coming off the bench who would help keep possession higher up the pitch it would have made things a lot easier. The main issue the way I see it is that players like Henderson and Lucas drop much deeper when the opposition starts pushing which automatically pushes the back line and forward players further back. It's something the manager should address and it is slightly worrying that -despite us winning our previous games- he doesnt seem to have made it a priority addressing that particular issue. When we get possession deep in our half, we lack outlets in offense to regain control of the game and every single player (Sturridge and Coutinho to a lesser extent included) have disappointed in that department so far this season. The introduction of Suarez to the side imo will go a long way in solving the issue.

The reason I mention plan B is because more often than not, when sides/managers lose control of the game they look at the bench or the different options provided by the players in the side to try and rectify the issue. A plan B if you will. In each of the games we've played so far, we have failed in implementing that plan B when things got tough. We don't have the resources to play on the counter unless we go for Moses and Sterling/Ibe as wide players and even then I'm not sure the players we have are good enough to warrant such a tactic from the manager. I cant think of many solutions given what we have (until Suarez is back that is) but my opinion is that players like Henderson and Aspas are a huge part of the problem, and as such, alternatives should be considered.   

On Gerrard being the issue:

It's rather ridiculous suggesting that taking Gerrard off because he lacks the stamina (questionable assertion imo) in the second half would improve the side from a possession and attacking point of view. From what I've seen -and I know this goes against general opinion- Lucas seems to struggle more as the game goes on than Gerrard does. His general play has been very good so far this season and his intelligence/understanding of the game is one of the main reasons why we are able to play the possession style of football that Rodgers wants. On him losing possession in the second half, I cant disagree with that. It is something that he does in both halves actually. Him and Coutinho probably have the lowest passing percentages in the side. He tries the harder ball sometimes but its the main reason he gets 10 assists a season while Lucas and Henderson get 1 or 2. Even when we're under pressure in the second half, one of the few ways we have of creating chances is through Gerrard's long and sometimes speculative passes behind defenses. So all in all, no I wouldnt even think about bringing Gerrard off. Perhaps moving him further up the pitch and introducing someone like Allen might help but I think our problems run deeper than that.

On fitness/physicality being the issue:

I'll try to keep this short. Its the 5th game of the season for us. If the players are struggling for fitness this early on then we'll most probably end the season outside the top 10. I'm sure its not a fitness problem with the side as a whole; one or two players struggling with injuries maybe but not the side as a whole. On physicality, its not a thing you turn on and off. If its an issue then its an issue in both halves not the second one only. Yes, we lack that added physical presence in the middle of the park but it is not the necessity that people make it out to be. Our back line is strong and big enough and that should be more than enough when it comes to that aspect of things.

Again, for me our problems in the second half are not defensive, they are offensive. We need to look at why the ball doesn't stick further up the pitch. Why we lack bodies up there. Why the shape of the side isn't quite right. The reason we sit deeper regardless of the opposition and their strengths. We also need to look at the contribution of players like Henderson in the second half. The main positive of having him in the side for me is him tracking back and covering the spaces left by our attacking players/Johnson. In the second half of games, we usually have the entire side sitting deep, so all the positives that he brings to the side become somewhat redundant. Is having someone like Sterling more beneficial to the side in the second half with his pace and dribbling. Another thing to consider, without Johnson in the side and assuming Wisdom/Toure continue at the RB spot, doesnt it make sense to try and add something to that flank by perhaps moving Moses to the right or bringing Coutinho to the right with Gerrard pushing higher up instead.

Apart from you mentioning pushing Gerrard forward its crystal clear you're one of the few people on here who truely understands the game.

Excellent post.

Before Coutinho went off we made 66 passes in the attacking third of the pitch with 48 successful - after we made 11 passes in the attacking third with only 4 successful !! - Coutinho went off on 55 mins. That possibly highlights Ace's point about the lack of attacking in the second half

so let me get this right, we're playing a bit Sh*t, but are top of the league...

i'll take that for now

we sit deep in the second half because our center mids havent got the athleticism to get up and down the pitch like they do in the first half!
in the first half our center mids support our forwards (even getting in the opposition box) and when the opposition attack they get back and help the defence, come the second half though they havent got the energy to do both jobs so the stay back.
one one occassion on monday moses counter attacked down the wing towards the halfway line with the ball and about 3 or 4 swansea players swarmed to him like a horde of angry bee`s, moses looked around for support and no red shirt was within 40 yards of him, everyone was standing at the edge of our area watching him trying to take the entire swansea team on on his own!
the swansea midfield were full of energy and chased everything down in numbers with enthusiasm whilst we did our usually second half impression of colonel travis and davey crockett defending the alamo.
gerrard and lucas dont want to push up the pitch in the second half because they know if the other team counter attacked they`d struggle to get back goal side, everyone must have noticed how players just run straight through the heart of our midfield sometimes, just breezing past gerrard and lucas.